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-- US should mind their own business
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quote:

Originally posted by Shakka And who created and essentially bankrolls the UN? In all honesty, I'm surprised you even had the gall to go there. I think Yoepus made his point rather well (Certainly better than I would've )

I suggest you do some research before you make your assertion about the US bankrolling the UN.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance...get/large05.htm

http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance...re/un-us-05.htm

Anyways, here's my two penneth (not two cents worth! bloody Americans should mind their own God damn business forcing their culture and silly sayings on the civilised world!!)

There are many examples of when people have wanted America to intervine (well, not neccissarily America but the international community) like in Bosnia. If the US intervines on behalf of the UN (like in the Balkans or Somalia) then fine. When else should they intervine? When their security (or others) is jepardised I will give. But the problem here is that you get wars like Iraq where they claimed it was for security (but it blatently isn't) and then when everyone realised it had fuck all to do with security, it was about spreading democracy! If that is their aim (and it is an official neo-con policy to spread democracy) then they are quite capable of funding oppositions (when it is established that the opposition speak for the masses and they do want democracy - not some Pinochet wannabe) like in Afghanistan. If a conflict has broken out then America - with or without the UN's say so - and any other nation should get involved to keep the peace. There are only two actors in the world capable of taking on high level military operations - NATO and America, so you can see why people complain when America does not get involved (the EU is currently developing a capability in order to carry out high level military operations) This is also why I object to criticism at the UN for not doing enough to prevent attrocities - cos the UN has no military. Only NATO and America have the planning, control and command structures to take on high level ops so when they dont wanna get involved, there's not much the UN can do (if its a complex situation, obviously minor conflicts can be done by one country, such as operations carried out by the French or British).

But unfortunately, America is not concerned about humanitarian missions (even under Clinton they made it clear the Balkan conflicts were European problems to be sorted out by the EU). There is no way America will get dragged down in UN missions when it needs its troops where they are. America does not have the resources to fight another Iraq-type war for years - but obviously the current administration require that option so resources are gonna be directed at Iraq-style wars, and UN missions would divert resources away from that aim (this is why I think it is crucial the EU pulls its finger out of its arse and fully implements the Helsinki Headline Goals ASAP cos the EU's military raisin d'etre IS to carry out humanitarian missions)

So should the US mind its own business? Yes and no! If, one day with a new regime in charge America does feel the need to carry out humanitarian tasks then of course it should do everything in its powers to help. But under the current ideology then obviously it should "mind its own business" - but we all know that aint gonna happen!

US policy is centred around economic objectives. This is why there is tension with all and sundry in the Middle East right now and also explains the tension over Korea and Taiwan (S Korea and Taiwan both "allies" which means they are worth a bob or two to the Americans!) But I cant for the life of me see any conflicts over N Korea or Taiwan (not involving America anyway) so I guess the US will continue not minding its own business in the Middle East (altho no invasions for several years!)

quote:

Originally posted by zig I suggest you do some research before you make your assertion about the US bankrolling the UN. http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance...get/large05.htm http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance...re/un-us-05.htm

Yea I was gonna say summat too!

Congress (who control the US economy) refuse to pay anything to the UN. In fact the US owes the UN billions of $!!

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Yea I was gonna say summat too! Congress (who control the US economy) refuse to pay anything to the UN. In fact the US owes the UN billions of $!!

Yep the links above are for 2004 2005......in 2005 they havent paid a penny yet and payments are due each month......

A short list of questions for our American world helpers......

1. Which is the only country in the world to have dropped bombs on over twenty countries since 1945?

2. Which is the only country to have to have used nuclear weapons to take the lives of thousands of civilians?

3. Which country was responsible for a car bomb which killed 80 civilians in Beirut in 1985, making it the most lethal terrorist bombing in the middle east?

4. Which countrys illegal bombing of Libya in 1986 was described by the UN Legal Committee as a classic case of "terrorism".

5. Which country rejected the order of the International Court of Justice to terminate "its unlawful use of force" against Nicuragua in 1986, and then vetoed a UN security council resolution calling on all states to observe international law.

6. Which country was accused by a UN sponsered truth commission of providing "direct" and indirect support for acts of genocide in Guatamala in the 1980s.

7. Which country unilaterally withdrew from the anti ballistic missile treaty in 2001.

8 Which country renounced the efforts to negotiate a verification process for the biological weapons convention and brought an international conference to a halt in 2001.

9. Which country prevented the UN from curbing the gun trade at an arms conference in 2001.

10. Which country apart from Somalia has refused to ratify the UN convention on the rights of the child (For military reasons i might add). You could also ask another question here....which is the only western country to allow the death penalty to apply to chrildren.

11. Which is the only G7 country to not sign the 1997 mine ban treaty, forbidding the use of landmines.

12. Which is the only G7 country to have voted against the creation of the International Criminal Court in 1998.

13. Which was the only other country to join with Israel in opposing in 1987 a General Assembly resolution condemning international terrorism.

14. And lastly which country refuses to fully pay its debts to the UN but reserves the right to veto United Nation Resolutions.


hhhmmmmmm......quite a list.....i could add much more.....

quote:

Originally posted by zig A short list of questions for our American world helpers...... 1. Which is the only country in the world to have dropped bombs on over twenty countries since 1945? 2. Which is the only country to have to have used nuclear weapons to take the lives of thousands of civilians? 3. Which country was responsible for a car bomb which killed 80 civilians in Beirut in 1985, making it the most lethal terrorist bombing in the middle east? 4. Which countrys illegal bombing of Libya in 1986 was described by the UN Legal Committee as a classic case of "terrorism". 5. Which country rejected the order of the International Court of Justice to terminate "its unlawful use of force" against Nicuragua in 1986, and then vetoed a UN security council resolution calling on all states to observe international law. 6. Which country was accused by a UN sponsered truth commission of providing "direct" and indirect support for acts of genocide in Guatamala in the 1980s. 7. Which country unilaterally withdrew from the anti ballistic missile treaty in 2001. 8 Which country renounced the efforts to negotiate a verification process for the biological weapons convention and brought an international conference to a halt in 2001. 9. Which country prevented the UN from curbing the gun trade at an arms conference in 2001. 10. Which country apart from Somalia has refused to ratify the UN convention on the rights of the child (For military reasons i might add). You could also ask another question here....which is the only western country to allow the death penalty to apply to chrildren. 11. Which is the only G7 country to not sign the 1997 mine ban treaty, forbidding the use of landmines. 12. Which is the only G7 country to have voted against the creation of the International Criminal Court in 1998. 13. Which was the only other country to join with Israel in opposing in 1987 a General Assembly resolution condemning international terrorism. 14. And lastly which country refuses to fully pay its debts to the UN but reserves the right to veto United Nation Resolutions. hhhmmmmmm......quite a list.....i could add much more.....

oh please..like u couldnt make a shit list of every other country....

quote:

Originally posted by zig I suggest you do some research before you make your assertion about the US bankrolling the UN. http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance...get/large05.htm http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance...re/un-us-05.htm

Heh. That's a convenient diversion, but I'm afraid what you've done is a stealthy attempt to dodge the issue. What you've pointed out is how much the U.S. supposedly owes the U.N., not how much the U.S. pays/has paid to fund the inept organization. I suggest you go back and read beyond 2005 and look at each year they have information on from 1992-2005 and tell me who is at the very top of each list in terms of absolute dollars paid. Hint: It rhymes with "Uncle Sam". So the U.S. apparently carries a lot of debt, but that's certainly not the exception to the rule if you look at the tables. Additionally, we're talking about more than just dues.



I'd post more charts if they were in image format, but they are not, so go here and look through them all yourself.

Not the exception

quote:

America's $1.7 Billion Debt to the UN Dateline: 10/31/99 From Where the UN Stands According to the United Nations, the United States owes them $1.7 billion in unpaid dues and must pay $550 million of that amount by the end of 1999 or lose its vote in the UN General Assembly. The U.S. is far from the only debtor UN nation. Secretary-General Kofi Annan has told the U.N. budget committee that without $2.15 billion in total unpaid dues by member states, "We cannot rationally manage the United Nations." Secretary-General Annan points out that the United Nations had allotted $900 million for peacekeeping in 1999, but it had to reduce that amount to $650 million due to the shortfall in back dues. From Where the US Congress Stands There are currently three bills before the US Congress addressing the UN debt, each in very different ways: 1. Pay them (some of it) 2. Don't pay them (any of it) 3. Get the US of the UN altogether [Online Poll] ...more Don't Pay Them (Any of It) H.R. 346, To prohibit the payment to the United Nations of any contributions by the United States until United States overpayments to such body have been properly credited or reimbursed., sponsored by Rep. Roscoe G. Bartlett (R. MD), proposes that the US debt claimed by the UN is erroneous due to unreimbursed expenses of $4.7 billion for peacekeeping services incurred by the United States during the years 1992 - 1995.

In an older story...

quote:

...The United States is the largest contributor to the United Nations but also its largest debtor, owing about $1.7bn, according to UN figures. However, Washington puts the amount at closer to $1bn. ...

http://www.cato.org/dailys/6-15-98.html

quote:

The United States paid more than $11 billion for international peacekeeping efforts between 1992 and 1997.

quote:

True, Congress has withheld some money from the UN: some members believe we are being overcharged, and others want to force UN reform. But it's also true that the administration has been diverting additional billions of dollars to assist the UN without asking it to credit them against our "dues."

Your origional statement was that the US bankrolls the UN.....

Hardly likely, if you havent paid a penny in 2005.....and owe hundreds of millions........

I will research it further tomorrow......but i do remember a certain memeber of your congress or senate who blocked payments for years...year after year......

quote:

Originally posted by zig A short list of questions for our American world helpers...... Which country list blah blah blah..... hhhmmmmmm......quite a list.....i could add much more.....

Déjà vu post from some other forum:

The "OH SO GREAT" United States of America

Possibly from this page:

A question-and-answer guide to the world's leading "rogue state"

There is always going to be a boogey man. Whether it is the USA, Iraq, Iran, North Korea or Paul Oakenfold.

People are so easily distracted, and so gullible.

quote:

Originally posted by zig A short list of questions for our American world helpers...... 1. Which is the only country in the world to have dropped bombs on over twenty countries since 1945? 2. Which is the only country to have to have used nuclear weapons to take the lives of thousands of civilians? 3. Which country was responsible for a car bomb which killed 80 civilians in Beirut in 1985, making it the most lethal terrorist bombing in the middle east? 4. Which countrys illegal bombing of Libya in 1986 was described by the UN Legal Committee as a classic case of "terrorism". 5. Which country rejected the order of the International Court of Justice to terminate "its unlawful use of force" against Nicuragua in 1986, and then vetoed a UN security council resolution calling on all states to observe international law. 6. Which country was accused by a UN sponsered truth commission of providing "direct" and indirect support for acts of genocide in Guatamala in the 1980s. 7. Which country unilaterally withdrew from the anti ballistic missile treaty in 2001. 8 Which country renounced the efforts to negotiate a verification process for the biological weapons convention and brought an international conference to a halt in 2001. 9. Which country prevented the UN from curbing the gun trade at an arms conference in 2001. 10. Which country apart from Somalia has refused to ratify the UN convention on the rights of the child (For military reasons i might add). You could also ask another question here....which is the only western country to allow the death penalty to apply to chrildren. 11. Which is the only G7 country to not sign the 1997 mine ban treaty, forbidding the use of landmines. 12. Which is the only G7 country to have voted against the creation of the International Criminal Court in 1998. 13. Which was the only other country to join with Israel in opposing in 1987 a General Assembly resolution condemning international terrorism. 14. And lastly which country refuses to fully pay its debts to the UN but reserves the right to veto United Nation Resolutions. hhhmmmmmm......quite a list.....i could add much more.....

Maybe you could quote your source next time? There's no shame in admitting you couldn't think up things yourself.

That's a nice U.S. bashing list but hardly supports the arguement of why the U.S. helps other nations the way it does.
The point of the whole thread is why does the U.S. get involved?

quote:

Originally posted by zig HUGE pieces of land? What the fuck are you on? Before they were colonized/massacred/conquered they had ALL of the land. The european colonizer had no fucking business being here in the first place. So I don't really see what you're point is.

The european colonizer had no fucking business being here? What??
Good greif. What a convenient and selective history we have.
Yes, HUGE pieces of land. Do a google and check it out yourself.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; it was the era of exploration and colonization. To put a finer point on it; there was nothing wrong with doing what needed to be done at that point in time. Wealth was driven by LAND and the annexing of new lands.
THAT was my point of answering the driveling question regarding the Native Americans (god knows why they even entered the equation).

quote:

Originally posted by zig A short list of questions for our American world helpers...... 1. Which is the only country in the world to have dropped bombs on over twenty countries since 1945? 2. Which is the only country to have to have used nuclear weapons to take the lives of thousands of civilians? 3. Which country was responsible for a car bomb which killed 80 civilians in Beirut in 1985, making it the most lethal terrorist bombing in the middle east? 4. Which countrys illegal bombing of Libya in 1986 was described by the UN Legal Committee as a classic case of "terrorism". 5. Which country rejected the order of the International Court of Justice to terminate "its unlawful use of force" against Nicuragua in 1986, and then vetoed a UN security council resolution calling on all states to observe international law. 6. Which country was accused by a UN sponsered truth commission of providing "direct" and indirect support for acts of genocide in Guatamala in the 1980s. 7. Which country unilaterally withdrew from the anti ballistic missile treaty in 2001. 8 Which country renounced the efforts to negotiate a verification process for the biological weapons convention and brought an international conference to a halt in 2001. 9. Which country prevented the UN from curbing the gun trade at an arms conference in 2001. 10. Which country apart from Somalia has refused to ratify the UN convention on the rights of the child (For military reasons i might add). You could also ask another question here....which is the only western country to allow the death penalty to apply to chrildren. 11. Which is the only G7 country to not sign the 1997 mine ban treaty, forbidding the use of landmines. 12. Which is the only G7 country to have voted against the creation of the International Criminal Court in 1998. 13. Which was the only other country to join with Israel in opposing in 1987 a General Assembly resolution condemning international terrorism. 14. And lastly which country refuses to fully pay its debts to the UN but reserves the right to veto United Nation Resolutions. hhhmmmmmm......quite a list.....i could add much more.....

You really think that list will be able to stand up against peer review? FFS it's almost as bad as the Kerry is a flip-flopper list. Not to mention it's horribly dated.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r The european colonizer had no fucking business being here? What?? Good greif. What a convenient and selective history we have. Yes, HUGE pieces of land. Do a google and check it out yourself.

You obviously don't understand what the guy who started this thread had in mind. The very conception of this nation began with massacre, bloodshed and opression. And not much has really changed since then when you look at US foreighn policy.

You don't get it do you. "HUGE pieces of land"? Every inch of this soil belongs to the natives it was stolen from.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I've said it before and I'll say it again; it was the era of exploration and colonization. To put a finer point on it; there was nothing wrong with doing what needed to be done at that point in time. Wealth was driven by LAND and the annexing of new lands. THAT was my point of answering the driveling question regarding the Native Americans (god knows why they even entered the equation).

That doesn't justify shit and it was COMPLETELY WRONG. You're a pretty sick individual if you think there's nothing wrong with genocide, oppresion and stealing other peoples resources and land.

EDIT:

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Native Americans (god knows why they even entered the equation).[/B]

Are you really that naive/biased?

quote:

Originally posted by zig A short list of questions for our American world helpers...... 1. Which is the only country in the world to have dropped bombs on over twenty countries since 1945? 2. Which is the only country to have to have used nuclear weapons to take the lives of thousands of civilians? 3. Which country was responsible for a car bomb which killed 80 civilians in Beirut in 1985, making it the most lethal terrorist bombing in the middle east? 4. Which countrys illegal bombing of Libya in 1986 was described by the UN Legal Committee as a classic case of "terrorism". 5. Which country rejected the order of the International Court of Justice to terminate "its unlawful use of force" against Nicuragua in 1986, and then vetoed a UN security council resolution calling on all states to observe international law. 6. Which country was accused by a UN sponsered truth commission of providing "direct" and indirect support for acts of genocide in Guatamala in the 1980s. 7. Which country unilaterally withdrew from the anti ballistic missile treaty in 2001. 8 Which country renounced the efforts to negotiate a verification process for the biological weapons convention and brought an international conference to a halt in 2001. 9. Which country prevented the UN from curbing the gun trade at an arms conference in 2001. 10. Which country apart from Somalia has refused to ratify the UN convention on the rights of the child (For military reasons i might add). You could also ask another question here....which is the only western country to allow the death penalty to apply to chrildren. 11. Which is the only G7 country to not sign the 1997 mine ban treaty, forbidding the use of landmines. 12. Which is the only G7 country to have voted against the creation of the International Criminal Court in 1998. 13. Which was the only other country to join with Israel in opposing in 1987 a General Assembly resolution condemning international terrorism. 14. And lastly which country refuses to fully pay its debts to the UN but reserves the right to veto United Nation Resolutions. hhhmmmmmm......quite a list.....i could add much more.....

Those are valid questions. And the rest of you guys don't have the balls/are too self-righteous/blinded by nationalism to answer them.

Answer: USA

EDIT: Thanks for bringing up these questions zig and reminding Americans of the actions of their own Goverment.

ADD some more because some those i have never heard about before so keep on going to see if u can surprise me some more

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z You obviously don't understand what the guy who started this thread had in mind. The very conception of this nation began with massacre, bloodshed and opression. And not much has really changed since then when you look at US foreighn policy.

The U.S. wasn't worried about foreign policies when they were dealing with problems in their own land and other countries' foreign policies. ie. Mexico and Britian.

quote:

You don't get it do you. "HUGE pieces of land"? Every inch of this soil belongs to the natives it was stolen from.

Ever heard of a 'reserve'?
They house Native Americans who wanted to secede themselves from the rest of the world. There are lots, especially here in Canada.

quote:

That doesn't justify shit and it was COMPLETELY WRONG. You're a pretty sick individual if you think there's nothing wrong with genocide, oppresion and stealing other peoples resources and land. EDIT: Are you really that naive/biased?

Biased? Why because I speak the truth?
I understand where you're coming from. Nobody in their right mind would do what was done in the past in today's world; I agree 100%.
The fact of the matter is, it happened, get over it.
Was it wrong? It depends on which end of the time scale we're looking at it from.
Those were the times and that's what was done.
It's not like we can go back in time and change it; deal with it, learn from it and never repeat it.
People and countries are going to make mistakes but don't forever chastize them doing what they thought was right at the time.
Regret will do it's job without the dogmatic finger pointing.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Ever heard of a 'reserve'? They house Native Americans who wanted to secede themselves from the rest of the world. There are lots, especially here in Canada.

Yeah well here in the US the reserves really suck and they need to make casinos in order to make $$

@Yoepus: Ok, now I understand what your list is supposed to say. I definately do not agree with all being examples of the people crying out for help and getting it - benevolent style. But leaving that aside, I think that you managed to give me my concrete example (the Balkans).

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Lets not get into "the people" definition problem, as debating definitions is never fun. For sake of argument I'm saying "the people" are either a majority or a large influential population of the country and/or the government repersenting (or not repersenting) said people. Obviously there are always dissenters and its never "all the people". ... I don't want to make this a who is the peoples/what is a democracy/legit government etc debate, because that would be endless... as above lets just stick to a broad definition. I don't think it disuades the point.

This debate is either very important or totally irrelevant, depending on what exactly it is that you US-patriots are complaining about when you say that "they want to be able to dictate the terms of the aid they receive. i.e. make the U.S. their personal bitch until they get what they want, then stab the U.S. in the back when all is done and remind the world how much they hated the U.S. in the first place"
(quoting Shakka, as he seemed to be the most elaborate one on this topic)? Is it

A) Whatever we do *some people* are going to complain, or
B) There's people who will ask for help and those *same people*, once helped out, will complain about the US for helping them?

If it's "A", then the debate above is irrelevant, and you're of course right. There can be no pleasing of everyone. If it's "B", however, then it becomes essential to establish that it is the same people, who asked for the help, which are now complaining (e.g. it was Saddam who asked for help in fighting Iran, not the Iraqis demonstrating against the US right now, so you cannot acuse anyone of backstabbing you).
I've tried to discern whether you're complaining about "A" or "B" from the US-patriot posts in this thread, but I cannot. So, consequently, I cannot agree that that the issue of who "the people" are is irrelevant just yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka In all honesty, I'm surprised you even had the gall to go there.

I don't accept political correctness as a valid argument. Sorry if that offends you.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z That doesn't justify shit and it was COMPLETELY WRONG. You're a pretty sick individual if you think there's nothing wrong with genocide, oppresion and stealing other peoples resources and land.

got to agree with this. you cant justify something that is clearly wrong in retrospect by saying that it was ok at the time.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic I don't accept political correctness as a valid argument. Sorry if that offends you.

None taken, I just didn't think it was really that much of a debatable issue.

quote:

Originally posted by zig 5. Which country rejected the order of the International Court of Justice to terminate "its unlawful use of force" against Nicuragua in 1986, and then vetoed a UN security council resolution calling on all states to observe international law.

to be fair thats one of the most heavily critiised judgements in the history of the icj..and Nicaragua were also using unlawful force

quote:

Originally posted by metalgearsolid Yeah well here in the US the reserves really suck and they need to make casinos in order to make $$

Those casinos which generate substantial income and are not taxable. Sounds like a sweet deal to me.

http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hr...nfo/gambind.htm

quote:

Can states tax Indian gaming? States cannot tax Indian gambling. The federal law specifically prohibits states from imposing taxes or fees on Indian gambling, except for fees that the tribe agrees to. These fees are intended to compensate the state for its costs in performing inspections and other regulation under the tribal-state compact. In other words, states cannot raise general revenue by taxing Indian gambling. States do have the right to negotiate agreements with tribes under which the tribe makes payments to the state in return for the state's agreement to maintain a tribal monopoly on casino gambling. Under such an agreement Connecticut tribes paid the state over $280 million in fiscal 1999 from its slot machine revenue from two casinos. Income earned by employees at Indian casinos, as well as casino winnings, are taxable if the employee or winner is a non-Indian, but the casino does not withhold state taxes on either winnings or wages. Income earned at an Indian casino by reservation residents is nontaxable by the state.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic @Yoepus: Ok, now I understand what your list is supposed to say. I definately do not agree with all being examples of the people crying out for help and getting it - benevolent style. But leaving that aside, I think that you managed to give me my concrete example (the Balkans).

Yee I win

Seriously though, what were you thinking? Nobody ever called the USA out for help... come on..

But seriously the Balkans? Out of all the list, the Balkans? Hey, guess whatever floats your boat.

quote:

This debate is either very important or totally irrelevant, depending on what exactly it is that you US-patriots are complaining about when you say that "they want to be able to dictate the terms of the aid they receive. i.e. make the U.S. their personal bitch until they get what they want, then stab the U.S. in the back when all is done and remind the world how much they hated the U.S. in the first place"

Let me make clear by "this debate", you mean the definition of peoples?

quote:

A) Whatever we do *some people* are going to complain, or B) There's people who will ask for help and those *same people*, once helped out, will complain about the US for helping them?

I dunno that it actually matters whether it is A or B or for that matter something else. I listed so many examples they do fall into more categories then just A and B.

For instance what about people complain that the US is going to help them and then when the USA actually does they don't complain (much) like in Afghanistan?

Iraq (Gulf War II) might also fit under the above category, lets call it C.

I think mostly it falls into category A. But there are a wide array of categories.

In cases like Korea and the Arab world is more similar to B. Egypt, Syria, and Jordan, basically cried out for US internvention in 1956, 1963, and 1973, yet complain about that same very intervention till this day.

Really... I dunno where you're trying to go with this...

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Was it wrong? It depends on which end of the time scale we're looking at it from.

No it doesn't. There are certain values and morals which are universal and have been understood for ages, like don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, don't murder etc. It was pretty obvious what they did was wrong to any outside observer. It doesn't matter what fucking period in history it was.

American food is shit with the exception of Cajun/Creole food...and even that is French and African!!

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