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-- Muslims continue to oppress women
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Originally posted by TheNobleEu That obviously doesn't wash. The Qur'an advocates a hierarchy where the men are in control of the women, because contemporary culture had the men as the providers. In cultural practice, the Qur'an establishes men as superior -- this is just a product of the historical experience.

No, it doesn't establish men in "control" of women. Providing for your wife's needs is not the same as being "in control" of her, ofcourse, if he's a tool, then he may choose to do it, but that doesn't justify it and infringes upon women's rights.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu Men aren't equal to women spiritually either, as I already stated -- men have the "position of honour," so to speak, in the mosque, and the laws of S�rah 3 and 4 establish that, while women will indeed be admitted to Heaven, on Earth they are spiritually unclean, especially when menstruating.

Surah 3? Al-Imran? It doesn't make any comparison between men and women and certainly not in the context of implying men are better than women.

How on earth did you come to the conclusion that women are spiritually unlean? I thought you'd already be aware of some basic of parying and wudu (cleansing and puryfing yourself before prayer). Muslims, men and women, are required to pray in a state of purity (which is why you make wudu before prayer to cleanse yourself). Any kind of filth (especially bodily fluids like semen and blood, and, excrement) is considered unclean and your state of "puirty" is ruined. Which is why when women are mensurating or having their periods, they are not required to pray. How on earth did you conclude from that that women are spiritually unclean or inferior to men?

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu There is a whole series of laws in S�rah 4 outlining proper sexual conduct and provisions for feminine ablutions (which plays such a large role in Islam) during and after menstruation.

Proper sexual conduct? Women are not supposed to cheat on their husbands, wheather that's flirting around with another guy or sleeping with him, AND the same standard applies to MEN aswell. Men, if they have good reason to believe they're being cheated on, are recommended how to deal with the situation. It's simply a fact that men are the more physically dominant sex and have it in their ability to use minimal coersive force as a last resort if necessary. Women on the other hand, unfortunately, don't possess that physical advantage over men. Which is why they're supposed to seek outside help, primarily of family member (fathers and brothers playing a big role), to make sure the Husband doesn't step out of line or cheat. Men face equally severe consequences. So I don't see what the big deal is. It pretty much balances out the scale. Do you realize how impractical it would be for a woman to use coersive force(herself)(as a last resort ofcourse, like in the case of men) on a cheating douchebag husband?

It may seem strange or whatever to you, but disloyalty, of eighter partner, male or female, is a pretty serious issue in Islam and is not taken lightly.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu No problem. I'll also point out that most Muslims don't know Classical Arabic either -- even if they are native speakers, the Arabic of the Qur'an is notoriously obscure with religious terminology and is quite grammatically challenging. It's an art form just to be able to read Classical Arabic caligraphy.

Yes, which is why when I have a question regarding translations, meaning of arabic term (some of which don't even have any single equivalent term in English) or other linguistic stuff, I'll ask people who are familiar and well versed in both languages aswell as Classical Arabic, and not just some average joe.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu That's not the connotation conveyed -- that is the meaning you are taking away from the choice of English vocabulary of the translator. The sense of the text is male "superiority," not "physical attributes."

I've already explained and addresses that issue telling you that male superiority is not the case.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu Regardless, I think you're missing the context here: "Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard." The word fashishah in Arabic has the meaning either of a woman who openly commits lewd acts/adultery and/or disobeys the wishes of her husband. They both have a 'sin-doer' connotation. People on equal footing are just that -- when one must be "devoutly obedient" to the other or be beaten, and vocabulary exists in the Qur'an to describe a disobedient woman as sinful, equality doesn't exist. Right, but nonetheless the Qur'an prescribes obstracism, isolation, beatings, torture, and death for women that are not "devoutly obedient."

Excuse my language, but fuck no, you can't torture or kill a woman. That's complete boloney.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu I'm not making a moral judgement. I'm establishing that the Qur'an solidly and definitively places women in second-class society:

For the last time, no it doesn't. If you choose to stick to your Wahabi interpretation and view of things (which has influence on many Sunnis in the Arab world too), I can't really help you.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu I expected you would raise this, because it would seem a logical conclusion, but it isn't accurate. You must pay attention to the context of the text, since it tends to switch topics between verses. Laws must be distinguished for punishment of both guilty parties by the community, and punishment only for the wife by the husband. In my last post, I was describing the laws in the Qur'an that deal with both (husband's punishment and communal punishment = stoning). Above you are talking about only communal punishment. It is true that communal punishment is equal for men and women, but only if they are *both* adulterers (which is to say they were both married to someone else but slept with each other); in this event, they can both receive 100-50 lashes, depending on their social rank -- but women can additionally be stoned to death, starved to death, or exiled from the community, whereas a man cannot. What's more, S�rah 4 makes no penalty for a single male that sleeps with a married woman. This is indicative of the general attitude that is talked about in the Qur'an that men are "weak" insofar as they cannot contain their sexual appetites. Since they cannot, women must be vigilant and cover their bodies. Ergo, if a woman adulters, 'she must have consented.' He gets off, she gets killed -- or at least whipped.

What exactly do you mean by social rank? There are no such division in Islam between members of the society. Are you referring to political and financial elites or something? Regardless of what you financial standing and influence in society is, the laws are'nt any different for anyone.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu only if they are *both* adulterers

And how exactly can you commit adultery by yourself? Masterbating isn't adultery you know that right?

The precribed penalty isn't different for men or women:

Surah Al-Noor 024.002:

"The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment."

024.003:

"Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden."

024.004:

"And [b]those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-"

Also keep in mind, that's you need very reliable testimony beyond reasonable doubt.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu This isn't accurate either -- the Qur'an makes a provision for the husband's word as being sufficient. If he swears as many times by All�h as he needs witnesses that his wife is an adulteress and that he was the only one to observe it, this is considered sufficient (the woman however can swear the same amount of times that her husband is a liar and get off). No way you can claim that with any validity.

Suran Al-Noor 024.006:

"And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;"

024.007:

"And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie."

024.008:

"But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;"

024.009:

"And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth."

024.010:

"If it were not for Allah's grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft-Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed)."

024.011:

"Those who brought forward the lie are a body among yourselves: think it not to be an evil to you; On the contrary it is good for you: to every man among them (will come the punishment) of the sin that he earned, and to him who took on himself the lead among them, will be a penalty grievous."

If there's a contradiction between the woman's or man's accusation/defense, you can't resolve the matter and whoever the liar was amonst them is going to have to pay for his/her transgression in the hereafter.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu Sounds accurate, since the penalty against a male is relatively light.

Umm.. No, that not the case. There was another incident involving a woman in the same situation.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu Right, but exactly what they get is: S�rah 4.11. An-Nis�' ("The Women," dealing with law regarding marriage, inheritance for women, women's behaviour, etc.) "All�h commands you as regards your (children's) inheritance: to the male, a portion equal to that of two females; if (there are) only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is only half..."

Yes, I already agreed that inheritance portions are not the same. And I also explained to you the line of reasoning for that.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu Actually, on the contrary, its a central tenet of Islam that the text of the Qur'an cannot be changed, and has not changed at all since it was dictated to Muhammed. And very black-and-white tenets simply cannot be "reinterpretted."

I'm well aware thats it's supposed to be universal, unchangind and for all time, the QUR'AN that is. Which is the very reason why alot of it (even some things that may appear to be black and white) are not and are subject to interpretation. It's supposed to be adaptable to any time period and culture.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu Theoretically anyway, but you just finished telling me, in agreement, that e.g., Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan do it all the time. You might respond: "well then, they aren't true Muslims" (etc.) but that isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card to be invoked at your whim.

Yeah, I've already told you how many backward and fucked up institutions that claim to implement Sharia law are in violation of many Islamic teaching and principles so it can't possibly be legitimantely labeled "Sharia."

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu Word of advice: don't ever say that to your Imam or your Mullah.

I'm gonna be blunt as I don't like beating around the bush. I don't have an Imam or Mullah, since most of the time they're uneducated and full of shit. Most of them have no knowledge of science, math, literature, phylosophy, economics, and, all that other good stuff. And even some that do, have pretty stagnated veiws and don't understand that the book is subject to interpretation which will not always be the same in different time periods or cultures.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu Cheers, -Noble

I'd just like to add, that I could quote hundreds of verses and Hadith that tell men to be kind, respectful, and, affectionate towards women but I'm not going to bother since it would take alot of effort to find the right references and verse number etc. So, please, kindly stop painting this negative Wahabi image of women in Islam.

Peace.

p.s. Goddamn you dude! This response just took up another hour and a half of my time. Now I'm gonna have to get my reading for class done later which I could have completed by now.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z No, it doesn't establish men in "control" of women.

I already quoted the passages, no point in debating what's there plain as day. You don't seem to be familiar with the material in Surah 4.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z What exactly do you mean by social rank? There are no such division in Islam between members of the society. Are you referring to political and financial elites or something? Regardless of what you financial standing and influence in society is, the laws are'nt any different for anyone.

This is going around in circles.

If I quote a passage from the Qur'an that makes a statement, that statement is not debatable; that's simply what the Qur'an says (and I am telling you/annotating the grammatical elements present), so you can't just pick and choose which statements in the Qur'an you like and which you don't.

There's really no point in my responding anymore when all you're saying is "no, it's doesn't say that" or "that's not legit Islam" because then we have no common basis for conversation.

As I already outlined in part (see above), the Qur'an's laws proceed on the basis of a social hierarchy. The Qur'an acknowledges and discusses the following social classes/situations:

-Married men
-Married women
-Men with multiple wives
-Divorced women
-Widowed women
-Widowed men
-Single women that have never married (same category used for women that are virgins, which the Qur'an mutely assumes)
-Female slaves
-Female slaves of the harim
-Female slaves taken as wives by free men

Punishment for crimes depends on the social category to which the offender belongs.

That's what I mean by "social rank." This is a basic characteristic of the Qur'an, "which I'm surprised you don't know about."

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z And how exactly can you commit adultery by yourself?

I think this will be my last post on this matter, it appears you're not even reading what I say anymore.

The Qur'an metes out punishment on the basis of whether one or both parties to adultery were married at the time. Women and men are treated differently, women much more harshly, for commiting what the Qur'an calls "illegal sexual intercourse."

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'm gonna be blunt as I don't like beating around the bush. I don't have an Imam or Mullah, since most of the time they're uneducated and full of shit. Most of them have no knowledge of science, math, literature, phylosophy, economics, and, all that other good stuff. And even some that do, have pretty stagnated veiws and don't understand that the book is subject to interpretation which will not always be the same in different time periods or cultures.

Fair enough, and I have no say in that if you feel you know the Qur'an better than your clerics (especially since you don't know Arabic).

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'd just like to add, that I could quote hundreds of verses and Hadith that tell men to be kind, respectful, and, affectionate towards women but I'm not going to bother since it would take alot of effort to find the right references and verse number etc. So, please, kindly stop painting this negative Wahabi image of women in Islam.

Verses that tell the faithful to honour their wives, treat women with respect, and also "with justice" are sprinkled throughout the Qur'an, and that I never denied.

However I can and already have quoted numerious verses and summarized chapters that prescribe beatings, stonings, isolation, segregation, exile, torture, and death for women that don't do what their husbands say.

The final word is that the Qur'an tells the faithful to honour their wives, only if they behave and do what men tell them to do.

Pointing to these nice verses where women are honoured doesn't somehow overrule or delete the other verses that tell a man what Allah wants him to do if his wife or female slaves step out of line.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z p.s. Goddamn you dude! This response just took up another hour and a half of my time. Now I'm gonna have to get my reading for class done later which I could have completed by now.

Sorry, it takes a fair bit of my time too -- but I think maybe we should knock it off, as we're reaching an impasse.

Cheers,
-Noble

F*ck all the talk, just show me some hooters!


[[[smoke]]]

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