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Re: Re: Re: Religion

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax ...

yeah definitely. You're the type of religious person i have the utmost respect for. Its cool cause you're not quick to judge anything, let alone books by their covers. You can just chill and have a good time but still hold on to the values that you've instilled in yourself on how you want to live your life.

I still hold some of the values that I got from growing up in a religious family. I was brought up catholic, which many people say is the reason im not longer religious, hehe.. and i went to a catholic school from kindergarten through 8th grade. I look back, and I hated the way they would try to force beliefs and morals down my throat. Thats probably why I am the way I am. I dont want to have to believe what everyone else does. I want to belief that which works best for me. Thats also why I'm not an athiest. Im agnostic because, I'm the person that relies on proof for things, and since you cant prove that there ISNT a God, I refuse to be athiest. It just seems like too many religions are so set in their ways and if you think about it, organized religion has been a burden on society for millenia.

From back in the day of Jesus, to when settlers escaped Europe to come here and worship how they wanted, even to Hitler slaying millions because they didnt believe the way he did.

Then of course there is an upside to religion in being that it gives people something to hold on to. If having the faith that there is a wonderful God and a perfect place waiting for you when you die makes you live a happier, fuller life while you're here, more power to you.

Orbax.. you are the definition of what i feel, religious people should be. Go out and preach your ways!

quote:

Originally posted by newtotrance Scientology was developed by man and not from God.

lol, god was also invented by man!

I myself am catholic.
however i find religion a very interesting topic to talk about as many as you can near a coffee table. Everyone's views are different based on what happened, whats happening and the things to come.
personally, i am very interested in Scientology. I don't take science as much offense to personal religious virtures as many other hardcore catholics.
I've read details about The DaVinci Code and while it may offend the chuch, i take it as another interpretation of the bible, something no would ASBOLUTELY must follow, but something that should be taken into proper consideratoin

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Originally posted by Xenocreator_PG_ lol, god was also invented by man!

ouch man.. harsh. i believe the same thing, but still.. ouch

In my opinion, this is true though. We, as humans, being intelligent enough to be aware of our own existance, and lack thereof, how else do we explain why we're here. We're intelligent enough to have spiritual beliefs as well, although even chimps and gorillas have shown "spiritual" behavior in the past. Whether religion and "God" were thought up or created through visions, I don't know and I doubt we ever will. Religion had to start somewhere, and we know damn well it was there long before Jesus was around. People didnt just magically become intelligent enough to realize their existance when he showed up.

blah im so confused.. I should be cleaning. No more religious mumbo jumbo from me for awhile

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Originally posted by George Smiley So basically you tried to befriend some people who were scientologists and the only excuse they could think of for getting rid of you was tell you they weren't allowed to talk to non-scientologists?! Take a hint woman!

It depends on the level that they take their religion seriously. I still talk to all the people that I know that are Scientologists because they don't follow that rule. I was just giving the reasons as to why for example Tom Cruise doesn't have any close friends that aren't Scientologists.

And as far as I know Michael19, they don't ask for any "donations" or any money. No one I know has ever had to give any sort of money to the religion (unlike Christianity or Catholicism for example).

arrrr where'd newtotrance go? its better when there are people arguing
however, i'd rather have a happy middle
k so i usually don't just flat out criticize people online, or real life either, but seriously newtotrance, the way you talk is exactly what makes me hate most organized religion, mainly worship-based religions.

i personally am agnostic/atheist, i could go either way. however, when i'm talking to someone, especially someone with radically different beliefs than me (in this case, newtotrance would be a great example), i would choose words carefully, because rememner, we're talking about BELIEFS. you state everything so as to suggest that you are right, and everything you say is 100% correct, and most of all, undebatable.

now i firmly believe that using a religion as a tool to inspire hope and to teach good values can be a great thing. however, i also believe that the way many religions, especially christianity in almost all its forms, are centered around worship of a single figure, whether that be jesus or God or whoever, is not a good thing. See i believe this with all my heart, and its gonna be damned near impossible to change my mind, but i realize that other people would disagree as much vigor as i would have defending my beliefs.

and again i hate to stereotype, but in my experience, hardcore christians such as yourself have very narrow minds. care to specify which religion you were referring to when you talked of burning incense and sacrificing animals? hinduism is actually incredibly tolerant of other beliefs and values, unlike how you're acting.
so if you really understand religion, care to tell me the differences between buddhism and hinduism? or are they just the same to you?

At this point in my life I'm not into religion. I was actually just having this conversation the other day with some of my friends and I've finally figured out what I think. I believe in extremes and contradictions. At its core everything is either black or white, dead or alive, on or off, one or zero, good or bad. But your wondering well what about fuzzy logic eh? I say that (if you haven't geussed it) everything inbetween is a mixture of the two extremes. Just like there can be black and white, with enough black and white you get grey. With enough 1's and 0's there comes the number 7 or 2 or 865. With enough good and enough bad there becomes neutrality (like sweden). So in the end because of the convenient construction of numbers, everything eventually comes down to chance and probability and everyone is insanely highly improbable but yet the most infinitely probable event because low and behold we all still exist. Here's where contradictions comes in. Everything matters and yet doesn't matter at the same time. In less cryptic terms everything one does has some effect on the universe, but yet the universe is so big and well... cosmic, not only are the effects not felt directly, but they may not even be felt at all, so you matter but at the same time you don't. The two contradictions present a marriage of extremes.

As for God, he is a product of chance. Just as god could be some giant guy floating up in the clouds saying "hey lil humans do this!" we could all be fallen dieties as scientology suggests. Who knows?

quote:

Originally posted by newtotrance Came from the apes eh? Well, congradulations on evolving from an animal with less intelligence than humans. You need a cookie. Seriously tho, that is the evolutionary theory. No, they have not been saying this to me since I was a kid. I have not seen him. However, where did the apes come from? Some atomic gas from outer space. It says in Genesis 1, that God created the earth and humans. There is no way that humans could evolve from apes.

This is likely your worst argument. I respect alot of what you have to say but you're referncing spiritual scripture to try to argue a scientific theory. These scriptures are not proof in themselves, they are only another theory of existence. You cannot say one theory is not right because your theory says otherwise and expect people to respect your argument.

quote:

Originally posted by mezzir arrrr where'd newtotrance go? its better when there are people arguing however, i'd rather have a happy middle k so i usually don't just flat out criticize people online, or real life either, but seriously newtotrance, the way you talk is exactly what makes me hate most organized religion, mainly worship-based religions. i personally am agnostic/atheist, i could go either way. however, when i'm talking to someone, especially someone with radically different beliefs than me (in this case, newtotrance would be a great example), i would choose words carefully, because rememner, we're talking about BELIEFS. you state everything so as to suggest that you are right, and everything you say is 100% correct, and most of all, undebatable. now i firmly believe that using a religion as a tool to inspire hope and to teach good values can be a great thing. however, i also believe that the way many religions, especially christianity in almost all its forms, are centered around worship of a single figure, whether that be jesus or God or whoever, is not a good thing. See i believe this with all my heart, and its gonna be damned near impossible to change my mind, but i realize that other people would disagree as much vigor as i would have defending my beliefs. and again i hate to stereotype, but in my experience, hardcore christians such as yourself have very narrow minds. care to specify which religion you were referring to when you talked of burning incense and sacrificing animals? hinduism is actually incredibly tolerant of other beliefs and values, unlike how you're acting. so if you really understand religion, care to tell me the differences between buddhism and hinduism? or are they just the same to you?

plus fucking one

quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare At this point in my life I'm not into religion. I was actually just having this conversation the other day with some of my friends and I've finally figured out what I think. I believe in extremes and contradictions. At its core everything is either black or white, dead or alive, on or off, one or zero, good or bad. But your wondering well what about fuzzy logic eh? I say that (if you haven't geussed it) everything inbetween is a mixture of the two extremes. Just like there can be black and white, with enough black and white you get grey. With enough 1's and 0's there comes the number 7 or 2 or 865. With enough good and enough bad there becomes neutrality (like sweden). So in the end because of the convenient construction of numbers, everything eventually comes down to chance and probability and everyone is insanely highly improbable but yet the most infinitely probable event because low and behold we all still exist. Here's where contradictions comes in. Everything matters and yet doesn't matter at the same time. In less cryptic terms everything one does has some effect on the universe, but yet the universe is so big and well... cosmic, not only are the effects not felt directly, but they may not even be felt at all, so you matter but at the same time you don't. The two contradictions present a marriage of extremes. As for God, he is a product of chance. Just as god could be some giant guy floating up in the clouds saying "hey lil humans do this!" we could all be fallen dieties as scientology suggests. Who knows?

so you believe the theory that everything is based on chance and centered around two extremes, each of which deal with that specific issue but are on completely different ends of a "moral spectrum" or "physical spectrum" or so forth?


well as far as a "supreme being" or "beings", how do you favor, because although you seem to have all that figured out, you still havent stated your personal feelings on, let say, the Christian viewpoint or the Athiests viewpoint?

quote:

Originally posted by tribu This is likely your worst argument. I respect alot of what you have to say but you're referncing spiritual scripture to try to argue a scientific theory. These scriptures are not proof in themselves, they are only another theory of existence. You cannot say one theory is not right because your theory says otherwise and expect people to respect your argument.

exactly.. prime example of what mezzir and I were getting at.. Its great that you (newtotrance) have this belief and you're happy with it, but its tough to debate something without an open mind. Now i cant disprove the existance of God so i couldnt possibly stomp my foot down and say he /she/ie isnt there. See.. thats called "open-minded."

Thats why i can listen to your arguement, agree or disagree, and then give you my input. In your case, there will never be an agreement because anything I put forth will contradict in everyway what you have to say, while I can fully see where you're coming from and understand how or why you feel the way you do.

thats what you have to be able to do to provide a powerful and whole-hearted debate

quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare At this point in my life I'm not into religion. I was actually just having this conversation the other day with some of my friends and I've finally figured out what I think. I believe in extremes and contradictions. At its core everything is either black or white, dead or alive, on or off, one or zero, good or bad. But your wondering well what about fuzzy logic eh? I say that (if you haven't geussed it) everything inbetween is a mixture of the two extremes. Just like there can be black and white, with enough black and white you get grey. With enough 1's and 0's there comes the number 7 or 2 or 865. With enough good and enough bad there becomes neutrality (like sweden). So in the end because of the convenient construction of numbers, everything eventually comes down to chance and probability and everyone is insanely highly improbable but yet the most infinitely probable event because low and behold we all still exist. Here's where contradictions comes in. Everything matters and yet doesn't matter at the same time. In less cryptic terms everything one does has some effect on the universe, but yet the universe is so big and well... cosmic, not only are the effects not felt directly, but they may not even be felt at all, so you matter but at the same time you don't. The two contradictions present a marriage of extremes. As for God, he is a product of chance. Just as god could be some giant guy floating up in the clouds saying "hey lil humans do this!" we could all be fallen dieties as scientology suggests. Who knows?

*takes weed away from you*

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax *takes weed away from you*

Surprisingly I wasn't smoking weed but contemplating the murder of my uncle while coming up with that theory. As for D-res, if I had to chose one, I would say that I would chose the whole evolution/science thing but not scientology. I'm agnostic/atheist because I just can't see where god would come from. If he has made us, then who made him? If he's all powerful, who's omnipotent enough to make god? It eventually gets to a point where there has to be an infinite number of infinitely powerful beings; all of them claiming to be god. It reminds me of a brief exchange between sir arthur edddington and some anonymous old lady the end result being "it's turtles all the way down." If you say that nobody made god, he always was and always will be, then why can't that be any different for human beings? But as I said before everything's up to chance so I could be very very wrong and as a result I officially straddle the fence. I don't deny the existence of god I just say he's very improbable.

quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare Surprisingly I wasn't smoking weed but contemplating the murder of my uncle while coming up with that theory. As for D-res, if I had to chose one, I would say that I would chose the whole evolution/science thing but not scientology. I'm agnostic/atheist because I just can't see where god would come from. If he has made us, then who made him? If he's all powerful, who's omnipotent enough to make god? It eventually gets to a point where there has to be an infinite number of infinitely powerful beings; all of them claiming to be god. It reminds me of a brief exchange between sir arthur edddington and some anonymous old lady the end result being "it's turtles all the way down." If you say that nobody made god, he always was and always will be, then why can't that be any different for human beings? But as I said before everything's up to chance so I could be very very wrong and as a result I officially straddle the fence. I don't deny the existence of god I just say he's very improbable.

ahh the turtle story... i remember reading that in one of my books by Stephen Hawking. I believe it was "the universe in a nutshell" but it may have been the one before that.

Although at first it was like... what a crazy old coot, i definitily see the symbolic side of that statement.

This thread and the "post here" one are the only ones keeping me awake or atleast keeping me from drinkin my bottle of 151 all by myself

someone keep posting here so i can continue to debate and feel sorta intellectual... i wanna put my supposed 152 IQ to the test

quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare Surprisingly I wasn't smoking weed but contemplating the murder of my uncle while coming up with that theory.

dude just dont make an emotional appeal to me, that theory is still kind of bullsit, and unless its like some crazy Marxist philosophy about conflict and dichotomies...this isnt anything new. Conflict and synthesis are common philosophical doctrines, and nothing crazy. If , indeed, the death of your uncle sparked this thought, I *am* interested in what your process was. Because...If he died, that extreme should necessarily have met with an equal life extreme (birth) and created something. unless you personally were involved withh the birth of your uncles anti-death, I dont really see a whole lot of relevance, or purpose to your theory.

quote:

I don't deny the existence of god I just say he's very improbable.

Is it more improbable than you evolving from ooze in this one galaxy, of which there are 10^10 (roughly) and in each galaxy there are 10^10 (roughly) stars with solar systems.

Im not saying that you should believe in God, just that your argument isnt really...logical. Just admit you dont believe in God simply because...You dont believe in God. Evidence for or to the contrary is impossible to find.

quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare I'm agnostic/atheist

theres quite a difference imo... do you know the dif?

quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare I don't deny the existence of god I just say he's very improbable.

then you're leaning toward agnostic.

See i dont deny his existance. Im the type of person that relies on proof. Now since i cant prove one way or another, i cant possibly deny his existance, thus, im agnostic.

athiests striaght up say, "there is no god."

I was brought up religious, but i chose my own path. I dont know how to explain why i dont "think" there's a god, but it just doesnt feel right to me. somehow all the scientific theories, while far-fetched, just make more sense.

seems like a weak arguement, i know, but like i said, i cant prove he/she/it doesnt exist so i remain sort of... neutral on the issue, although i love debating it because i have an open mind and i can be swayed either way, depending on how solid of an arguement someoen presents...

quote:

dude just dont make an emotional appeal to me

I wasn't really trying to I was just telling you what I was doing when it happened. Geez, a lil self absorbed eh?

quote:

that theory is still kind of bullshit... Because...If he died, that extreme should necessarily have met with an equal life extreme (birth) and created something unless you personally were involved withh the birth of your uncles anti-death, I dont really see a whole lot of relevance, or purpose to your theory.

Well Orbax, if my argument is bullshit, please tell me in minute detail why, and I well try as best as I can to tell what I think, but it seems as if you don't understand what I'm trying to say. I didn't say that there had to be a a equal and opposite reaction, I was simply saying that there could be.

quote:

Is it more improbable than you evolving from ooze in this one galaxy, of which there are 10^10 (roughly) and in each galaxy there are 10^10 (roughly) stars with solar systems.

So what's more improbable, having something that might have a one in 10^20 (roughly) chance of evolving or something simply popping in out of 0 or even better being created by something much more powerful which also came from nowhere? I would guess the former.

quote:

Just admit you dont believe in God simply because...You dont believe in God. Evidence for or to the contrary is impossible to find

I never said I didn't believe in God, I said if I had to pick, i would choose the one you read about. And in fact we actually said the same thing "Who knows?" I just choose to support my decision with something based on a lil bit of logic

quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare I wasn't really trying to I was just telling you what I was doing when it happened. Geez, a lil self absorbed eh?

no, logical. Why would you tell me that PREMISE, without having any logical conlcusion based off of the fact that you told me. Ok, fine, your uncle died, how does that make your argument ANY more logical. My point. Its your turn to stop seeing this as personal. Im telling you not to make emotional appeals in a futile attempt at induction.

quote:

Well Orbax, if my argument is bullshit, please tell me in minute detail why, and I well try as best as I can to tell what I think, but it seems as if you don't understand what I'm trying to say. I didn't say that there had to be a a equal and opposite reaction, I was simply saying that there could be.

I said that you havent said anything that wasnt said by many people in multiple times. With, added on to that, that your previous emotional appeal in no way legitimized or proved your statement of a life defined by clashes of opposites.

quote:

I would guess the former.

Yes, you would. Not surprising at all.

quote:

I never said I didn't believe in God, I said if I had to pick, i would choose the one you read about. And in fact we actually said the same thing "Who knows?" I just choose to support my decision with something based on a lil bit of logic

well thats my point, Im not saying you shouldnt believe the things you do, you shouldnt believe in there being No God, based simply on the fact of your uncle dying and you thinking that dichotomies exist. Im sorry and all, but I dont quite see how your pretty much neo-platonist meets Gnostic philosophy stems from any of your premises. They may have sparked it, but I dont see any real progression from premise to conclusion, and im confused at the lack of linkage or conclusion from said linkage.

my thoughts = orbax should be a lawyer or a psychiatrist or something

-debate skillz
-intellect
-knowledge
-big words i dont understand

j/k on last one....

quote:

Im telling you not to make emotional appeals in a futile attempt at induction

Like i said before, if I was looking for "induction" as you say, I would have included that little tid bit of info in my first post. It's almost as if I would of said, "Surprisingly I wasn't smoking weed but painting while coming up with that theory". Like I said before, I was just telling you what I was doing.

quote:

They may have sparked it, but I dont see any real progression from premise to conclusion, and im confused at the lack of linkage or conclusion from said linkage.

My activity at the time had nothing to do with it, I'd kind of been thinking of it for a long time now. I really forgot what it stemmed from.

just wanted to clear that up.

i'm too tired to argue my points effectivly tonight, but all i'm going to say is scientology is a joke, just like most religions, even christianity, although i belive in jesus, god and the whole crew, i think "organized" churches/religions are all corrupted in their own way, maybe not in corrupt, but they all "know" that their religion is the only one that will get you into heaven. my religion says "if you don't belive in jesus, you'll go to hell" and i refuse to belive that, think of people that are missinformed, but are still nice/wonderful people that have done no harm to anyone in their life, and they're going to hell because they wern't brought up christian?

quote:

Originally posted by BTG my religion says "if you don't belive in jesus, you'll go to hell" and i refuse to belive that, think of people that are missinformed, but are still nice/wonderful people that have done no harm to anyone in their life, and they're going to hell because they wern't brought up christian?

i agree with that fully.

that one thing contributed a lot to pushing me away from most religions. Its complete bullsht that someone can tell me that a person, worth millions, who donates every cent he has to poor, starving children in africa is going to burn in eternal hellfire because he didnt beleive exactly as someone else does.

theres a lot of these dumb little rules you have to follow that just make the whole system a joke. I agree with you that many organized religions are "corrupt" per se in this sense.

quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare Like i said before, if I was looking for "induction" as you say, I would have included that little tid bit of info in my first post. It's almost as if I would of said, "Surprisingly I wasn't smoking weed but painting while coming up with that theory". Like I said before, I was just telling you what I was doing. My activity at the time had nothing to do with it, I'd kind of been thinking of it for a long time now. I really forgot what it stemmed from. just wanted to clear that up.

Im just interested in your logical approach to the realization that all things in life are synthesized from conflict. Premises, conclusion, etc...

Well why do you believe in God, that's always been a curiousity for me. A lot of people ask, "well why dont you ...?" but nobody asks "why do you ...?"

The reason i trust logic is because i trust numbers. They never seem to lie and are cold and factual. In order for me to truly believe in something, it has to have be able to make sense in numbers or quantitative (Sp?) characteristics. For example, I have an exact amount of molecules in my hand that I'm typing with. God shows, no physical, quantitative, real, concrete, characteristics so I question him. So I ask you, why don't u question him?

quote:

Is it more improbable than you evolving from ooze in this one galaxy, of which there are 10^10 (roughly) and in each galaxy there are 10^10 (roughly) stars with solar systems.

Far more improbable, yes. If you consider the conditions, the probability of life forming and evolving into complex organised beings was rather high. Now, if every single planet had intelligent life on it, then that would have been extremely improbable, and a question of pure coincidence (or god's work?). The problem is that people see evolution as being a series of coincidences and accidents that happened to go exactly the right way, but it's really the only logical progression of things from it's starting point. You have to remember that thousands of billions of lifeforms have died through the process of natural selection and mutation. It's not that life was somehow guided by a divine hand to follow the right path, it's just that everything that didn't follow the right path has died out.

That being said, evolution is based on theories supported by evidence and observation. Religion, on the other hand, does none of those things. That's why religion is said to be an emotive belief, not a logical one. I forgot who exactly said this, but I think it applies here; Science brings up questions and tries to find answers to fit them. Religion brings up answers and tries to find explanations that support it.

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