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Originally posted by George Smiley That is absolutely ridiculous!! If people want proof of the hold Israel has over the American government I think that has proved it beyond any reasonable doubt! Can you imagine a country, so small, having effectively complete control over the foreign policy of a superpower? That is seriously fucked up and I would be mega pissed off if I were an American!

I dunno, I wouldn't say its any more fucked up then the President ignoring laws made by congress...

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Originally posted by ronk oh and yes by the way George, Jerusalem was the capital of Israel in the bible. the fact that the kingdom splitted to Northern Israel and Judah doesn't change the fact that when we're talking about Israel, not a part of it (Northern Israel or Judah) - then its capital is Jerusalem.

Ah so now your arguemnt is that Israel was in fact 'Northern' Israel, or should that be northern Judah if your claiming Jerusalem as the capital?! And lets not get carried away with what it says in the Bible! If you wanna use the Bible as fact then you'd be a Christian!!

Besides, you didn't answer my question...

What gives the Jews the right to claim Jerusalem as their own when it is sacred to Christians and Muslims as well?

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Originally posted by Yoepus I dunno, I wouldn't say its any more fucked up then the President ignoring laws made by congress...

Actually if you hadn't thrown my dissertation in the bin you'd know that Israel's main influence is with Congress, not with the Presidency!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Actually if you hadn't thrown my dissertation in the bin you'd know that Israel's main influence is with Congress, not with the Presidency!

Bin, shmin. Congress repersents the people. The president executes congress' law.... that's the design of the system.

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What gives the Jews the right to claim Jerusalem as their own when it is sacred to Christians and Muslims as well?

The defacto reality that they:
a) occupy and control all Jerusalem.
b) claim sovereignty over Jerusalem.
c) there is no other sovereign nation claiming control over Jerusalem
d) the UN doesn't claim sovereignty over Jerusalem.

Couple that with the fact that who gave the British the right, who gave the Turks the right, who gave the Ottomans the right, who gave the Egyptians the right... etc. And you'll find just because somebody finds a place 'sacred' doesn't entitle that person to sovereignty over that place as quiet a convicing arugment.

Why do you believe Israel's sovereignty over Jerusalem should not be recongized?

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Ah so now your arguemnt is that Israel was in fact 'Northern' Israel, or should that be northern Judah if your claiming Jerusalem as the capital?! And lets not get carried away with what it says in the Bible!

dear god... it's called the northern kingdom of israel, or "Northern Israel"! and Judah is called the southern kingdom..you're not listening....
once there was Israel with the capital of Jerusalem, and David was the king. then Solomon.
then after after some time, the big kingdom splitted into two - the southern kingdom - or Judah - and the northern kingdom - which also called Israel, or Northern Israel. let's just call it Israel 2.
I wasn't talking about Israel 2, where I-don't-remember-what-city was its capital, I was talking about Israel where Jerusalem was its capital.

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If you wanna use the Bible as fact then you'd be a Christian!!

huh?

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Besides, you didn't answer my question... What gives the Jews the right to claim Jerusalem as their own when it is sacred to Christians and Muslims as well?

I didn't say Jerusalem isn't sacred for any other religions, nor it's belong only to the Jewish people I just said that it's in the territory of Israel, and it should be under the sovereignty of Israel. my mistake if you got me wrong or I expressed myself in the wrong way.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Bin, shmin. Congress repersents the people. The president executes congress' law.... that's the design of the system.

Or...there are more people in Congress to buy!

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The defacto reality that they: a) occupy and control all Jerusalem. b) claim sovereignty over Jerusalem. c) there is no other sovereign nation claiming control over Jerusalem d) the UN doesn't claim sovereignty over Jerusalem.

a) seemingly justifies a policy of attack and conquere, something I'm sure you (and US/Israeli foreign policy) would disagree with (eg Saddam)

b) applies to the Palestinians as well

c) is only by default until a Palestinian state is established

d) no-one said it does!

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Couple that with the fact that who gave the British the right, who gave the Turks the right, who gave the Ottomans the right, who gave the Egyptians the right... etc. And you'll find just because somebody finds a place 'sacred' doesn't entitle that person to sovereignty over that place as quiet a convicing arugment.

No, it doesn't! Thats my whole point!

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Why do you believe Israel's sovereignty over Jerusalem should not be recongized?

Well I think I have successfully avoided actually saying that but...Jerusalem is a very complicated and tricky problem. The British came up with the idea (endorsed by the UN iirc) to make it an international city under the authority of the UN. I think that would be the best option if it could satisfy both sides (which it probably wont). Obviously idealism and principles goes right out the window when it comes to resolving this conflict, which is why I dont agree with lefties saying Israel should withdraw from all areas over the green line. I'm of the opinion that if the Palestinians can agree to let any land go to Israel (ie the parts around Israel's "borders" containing Jewish settlements as long as they do not cut off any Arab villages). I would apply a similar pragmatic view to Jerusalem which would probably involve partition of the city if that were possible but with no restrictions moving around the city. To cut a long story short - fuck knows what should happen with Jerusalem!

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Originally posted by ronk dear god... it's called the northern kingdom of israel, or "Northern Israel"! and Judah is called the southern kingdom..you're not listening.... once there was Israel with the capital of Jerusalem, and David was the king. then Solomon. then after after some time, the big kingdom splitted into two - the southern kingdom - or Judah - and the northern kingdom - which also called Israel, or Northern Israel. let's just call it Israel 2. I wasn't talking about Israel 2, where I-don't-remember-what-city was its capital, I was talking about Israel where Jerusalem was its capital.

Two Kingdoms - Israel in the north and Judah in the south. David was king of Judah - never the king of Israel. At his time, they were two separate kingdoms and were not united until the time of Josiah (who told the Israelis that David and Solomon used to be their kings too to 'get them on side') When the Assyrian empire collapsed Judah took over Israel. Its all in that article and its all based on archeology and history - not based on myths in the Bible (which is nothing more than the Greek and Roman myths and do you believe them?)

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huh?

If you believed in all the stories of the Bible you wouldn't be Jewish would you?!

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I didn't say Jerusalem isn't sacred for any other religions, nor it's belong only to the Jewish people I just said that it's in the territory of Israel, and it should be under the sovereignty of Israel. my mistake if you got me wrong or I expressed myself in the wrong way.

Ok fair enuf but its not technically in the territory of Israel as I have pointed out earlier (ie there is very little international recognition of the fact) Also, the Israeli government doesn't even know where its borders are! There is no 'official' Israeli border and thats not from the international community thats from Israel itself!

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Originally posted by smokeape Well, two of us see eye to eye. Hamas is a f*cking virus doing nobody any good over there. Ought to look at means of taking them out....permanently. [[[smoke]]]

Hamas (IMHO) is on the 'other' side of the scale when it comes to Palistinians.
Having a problem with Palistinians in general because of Hamas is like having a problem with automobiles in general because you don't like the mini...

ok so the anology sucks...but you get the point...

The fact of the matter is, Hamas are acting a bunch of sore losers who simply don't realize the game is over.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Hamas (IMHO) is on the 'other' side of the scale when it comes to Palistinians. Having a problem with Palistinians in general because of Hamas is like having a problem with automobiles in general because you don't like the mini... ok so the anology sucks...but you get the point... The fact of the matter is, Hamas are acting a bunch of sore losers who simply don't realize the game is over.

The game isnt really over for them.. they are a fairly new terrorist organization that was helped by Israel during its inception, becuase they wanted something to fuck the PLO up. But they created a monster.

The more suffereing and lack of education the palestinians have.. the more support there will be for Hamas.

Israel has a problem that theyve created. They helped form hamas in the early 80's... dismantled the police infrastructure of the PLO...consistently destroyed the pal way of life under occupation...which nurtured extremism.

Hamas nevertheless gained support as they also helped feed, cloth and "educate" the palestinians. The more occupation was entrenched.. the more palestinians ran to thier only hope... Hamas. And you know what hamas's objective is.

Now Israel wants to the PLO to fight and control Hamas with the non - existant police force they dismantled years ago.

WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT!!!!!!

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Two Kingdoms - Israel in the north and Judah in the south. David was king of Judah - never the king of Israel. At his time, they were two separate kingdoms and were not united until the time of Josiah (who told the Israelis that David and Solomon used to be their kings too to 'get them on side') When the Assyrian empire collapsed Judah took over Israel. Its all in that article and its all based on archeology and history - not based on myths in the Bible (which is nothing more than the Greek and Roman myths and do you believe them?)

ohhh I'm really tired of this..this finkel buddy has no real proofs except for some antiques he has found (while most of the things in the bible have proofs..well..things not related to magic stuff, like the Pyramids, the wars, Solomon's stables, The Temple - the Western Wall, etc), and his article is mostly based on assumptions..but just accept the fact that Jerusalem belong to us more than to any religion in the world (Jewish people were there 1000 +/- years before anyone else). then it belongs to Christianity (0 +/-), then to Islam (600 +/-). we have chosen Jerusalem to be our capital city. period.

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If you believed in all the stories of the Bible you wouldn't be Jewish would you?!

please be kidding?

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Ok fair enuf but its not technically in the territory of Israel as I have pointed out earlier (ie there is very little international recognition of the fact)

well, technically, it is. Jerusalem is physically within the territory of Israel, what else do you want? do you want the world to decide and define which city would be our capital?!
and as I've said before, I don't give shit on that UK decision.

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Also, the Israeli government doesn't even know where its borders are! There is no 'official' Israeli border and thats not from the international community thats from Israel itself!

when you say borders, do you mean borders between Israel and the palestinians? well, they don't have a state, so borders would be a stupid thing to do until an agreement with them will be signed. in the meantime we have the "seperation wall" and IDF. enough, don't you think?

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Originally posted by ronk ohhh I'm really tired of this..this finkel buddy has no real proofs except for some antiques he has found (while most of the things in the bible have proofs..well..things not related to magic stuff, like the Pyramids, the wars, Solomon's stables, The Temple - the Western Wall, etc), and his article is mostly based on assumptions..but just accept the fact that Jerusalem belong to us more than to any religion in the world (Jewish people were there 1000 +/- years before anyone else). then it belongs to Christianity (0 +/-), then to Islam (600 +/-). we have chosen Jerusalem to be our capital city. period.

Well if you want to base your arguements on myth rather than on science go for it but you'll have a good job convincing me!

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well, technically, it is. Jerusalem is physically within the territory of Israel, what else do you want? do you want the world to decide and define which city would be our capital?! and as I've said before, I don't give shit on that UK decision.

Jesus! I gave you the UK position so you could see what the position of the international community was! You have to have recognition by the world (ie UN) to have sovereignty over an area. Thats the rules. Give a shit, dont give a shit, thats just how it is...

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when you say borders, do you mean borders between Israel and the palestinians? well, they don't have a state, so borders would be a stupid thing to do until an agreement with them will be signed. in the meantime we have the "seperation wall" and IDF. enough, don't you think?

When I say "borders" I mean just that...borders!! Show me a map of Israel's borders...

ogh..ok..George, drop it. Jerusalem was the capital of Judah, happy? it is still today's Israel's capital.
and here're the borders: http://jeru.huji.ac.il/jeru/map22.jpg (the borders with Jordan are no longer cease fire lines - an agreement was signed with them in '94.)

good hamas good there still are a few too many jews....

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Originally posted by ronk ogh..ok..George, drop it. Jerusalem was the capital of Judah, happy? it is still today's Israel's capital. and here're the borders: http://jeru.huji.ac.il/jeru/map22.jpg (the borders with Jordan are no longer cease fire lines - an agreement was signed with them in '94.)

You're not making this easy for yourself are ya mate?!

Er...anyway...do you have any official maps? Not maps that are a fanatical religious fantasy?

It is the fault of the British the jews are now in the middle east. Imagine how peaceful the world would be without Israel. Put the jews in America and we would be fucking wealthier than we are now.

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Originally posted by metalgearsolid It is the fault of the British the jews are now in the middle east. Imagine how peaceful the world would be without Israel. Put the jews in America and we would be fucking wealthier than we are now.

would you please shut up and sit in the corner?




George, here.

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Originally posted by metalgearsolid It is the fault of the British the jews are now in the middle east. Imagine how peaceful the world would be without Israel. Put the jews in America and we would be fucking wealthier than we are now.

Do you know what a condom is?

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Originally posted by ronk would you please shut up and sit in the corner? George, here.

I'm honestly not trying to be awkward but I cant see anything on that map! I cant even read the key! (Is it the same borders as the previous map?)

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Originally posted by George Smiley Do you know what a condom is?

y yes i do. do you have a penis to fit one on?

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Originally posted by metalgearsolid y yes i do.

Well can you please explain to your parents what one is so we dont see a repeat of their previous mistake?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well can you please explain to your parents what one is so we dont see a repeat of their previous mistake?

oooooooooooooooooooooooo

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Well can you please explain to your parents what one is so we dont see a repeat of their previous mistake?

oh and btw
try this map

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Originally posted by ronk oh and btw try this map

Well now we can see the problem!

That map is clearly very different from the first map isn't it? The first map shows all of 'Biblical' Israel as one territory. The map above shows the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights as being sepate territories from Israel (altho there is no key so what status they are designated is unclear) The second map (which is hard to make out) seems to show the border the same as the first map, but with Oslo Areas A and B (ruled by, or partly by the PA) but there are no borders around the West Bank, Gaza or the Golan Heights...

So basically, you've found three maps and every single one of them shows three different sets of borders...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well now we can see the problem! That map is clearly very different from the first map isn't it? The first map shows all of 'Biblical' Israel as one territory. The map above shows the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights as being sepate territories from Israel (altho there is no key so what status they are designated is unclear) The second map (which is hard to make out) seems to show the border the same as the first map, but with Oslo Areas A and B (ruled by, or partly by the PA) but there are no borders around the West Bank, Gaza or the Golan Heights... So basically, you've found three maps and every single one of them shows three different sets of borders...

actually the biblical Israel looked like this
and I believe the correct map is the last one.

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Originally posted by ronk actually the biblical Israel looked like this

Not according to Israel Finklestein!!!

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and I believe the correct map is the last one.

That appears to be the 'Green Line' map (agreed after the 1949 war) but that suggests the Golan Heights are not part of Israel. But Israel does claim the Golan Heights which suggests that map would be wrong. Also, compare that map with this one (link) which is the planned route of the separation wall. Looks to me like the future palestinian state is just gonna be the beige sections of that map (if Israel gets its way) That is why there are no official borders for Israel. If Israel said "these are our borders" then that would defacto recognise the Palestinian state. Israel has not agree as to what the border of the Palestinian state will be, therefore, Israel cannot say what Israel's borders are either

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