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-- U.S.-Israel Alliance
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| Originally posted by Yoepus I wouldn't say "extremly different threat", but "slightly different threat". Also Al-Q has aided the Palestinians and Hezbullah on numerous occasions. |
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| How so? I think it is very similar to the alliance between those countries. The USA trains, equips, and fights with all those allies and has good economic terms. |
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| The only different I see is A) Israel is the only USA allie at constant war and B) compared the above mentioned states the USA and Israel share a free-trade pact. (So it would be more similar to the USA alliances with Singapore, Austrilia, and UK) |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley Do you have any links as I am not aware of any? |
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I don't think the US particularly needs to train any of those countries (including Israel) if anything I would have thought it more likely to be the other way round (esp re UK and Israel) Training excersises maybe, but thats not training. Also it does not "arm" those countries it sells weapons to them which is completely different. |
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And ont "fights with" Completely true, for everyone but Israel! Or is that the other way round? Maybe America's Middle Eastern adventures are for Israel's benefits? After all, Saddam was no threat to the West. There is no way he was gonna sell weapons to a group whose primary aim was the overthrow of Middle Eastern governments, so where would those WMDs be targeted at? Hmmmm.... |
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So, to put it another way - does Israel fight for America like the UK or Denmark or France fight for America? No |
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Israel is "technically" at war with Syria. |
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If you're talking about being at war with terrorists, then so were the UK, but did America send us billions in aid? Did they fuck! They sent money to the fucking terrorists!!! |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley Why would having "top notch" spy agencies mean they would be allied? The KGB were a "top notch" spy agency but they weren't allied with America |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus Most likely. |
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| Yes excatly, Israel is so clever it was able to convience the USA to expend $300+ billion and the lives of thousands of its soldiers just because they were 'scared' of Saddam. |
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| However, USA forces do fight with Israel in the occupied territories and on covert operations in other locations in the world. |
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| They do not participate in the war in Iraq, because unlike Denmark, UK, etc, the USA has not asked them to participate, and Israel realizing that its participation would jeprodize the USA alliance, did not offer this participation. Had the USA asked, I garuntee you Israel would have sent troops or monies. Right now Israel does provide the USA with a logistics and supply base for the war. |
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| The USA relationship with Israel is still young (only really maturing as an alliance in 1973). Regardless, perhaps youc an enlighten me when in recent history the French fought for the USA.... |
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| The USA is sending Israel aid primarly due to the peace initiative it signed with Egypt and Jordan. The USA gives similar monies to Egypt and Jordan. Also it interjected and gave economic concessions during your own war with the IRA. But to put it plainly, Israel is recieving USA aid for military and economic development because it, unlike most of its other allies, needs it. |
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| Originally posted by cap I'm not saying that just because two countries have elite spy services that they always form an alliance. But in this case: - America needs information from the middle east (source of threat) - Israel has equivalent intelligence services to the US Israel is always in a precarious position in terms of international support. This could be for many reasons, including: - Mossad frequently violates international law to protect Israel (ie. sneaking into France to kill a Canadian scientist who was assissting Iraq with rocket technology). - Many people across the world either love - or in most cases - hate the notion of a Jewish state. - The Jews still face anti-semitism from areas of Europe, and still have tenuous relationships with other religious figureheads (eg. the Pope). Anyways, the point is that America's support can boost Israel into a formidable international position. Thus, Israel and America enter a mutually benefiting alliance. Alliance is formed. |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley So you dont think religion comes into it at all? |
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| Originally posted by cap Let's be honest. America is not a very religious country. Sure, George Bush prances around like he's a good Christian, but we all know it's just a big show to attract a targeted voting audience. |
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| When analyzing any of America's actions, rather than look for religious agendas or motivations, I would first ask myself: How can America profit, increase world economic and military domination, or improve homeland security. |
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| America did choose a non-Arab country to openly support, so I guess religion did come into play, but is certaintly not America's primary concern. |
Early on Israel was embracing socialistic principles and was actually supported by the USSR. However shortly after they switched to a more democratic form of gov't that's where the U.S. realize that they could have a strong ally in a region that is not friendly towards, indifferent at best, the Western world. Israel is a strong and important ally in all kinds of shapes and sizes. It's not about religion because U.S.A. isn't a religious state whatsoever. There are alot of court cases and such based on the religious law but that could happen in the most liberal countries, for example Spain a very conservative and Catholic country has an huge ammount of people who want to legalize homosexual weddings and shit.
What it all comes down to is a term called Harmony of Interest. This is something that all European countries and nowdays the U.S. employ when "helping" others. Take, for example, Hawaii and Micronesia (sp), the US "helped" them out because they needed shit from them, however you can't just come in and take it you gotta give them something in return. So you go and say something like "Listen, we'll help you with some technology and you give us something like your recon tech and such" and Israel, being non-retards, go "well, hell yes" whatever the agenda behind it is not exectly common sense as some people claim it is. it's not just USA is ran by Jews and Israellis need someone like the USA to help them out, though it could be partially true though highly unlikely to be the major cause.
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| Originally posted by cap Let's be honest. America is not a very religious country. |
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| How religion defines America By Dr Richard Land Southern Baptist Convention Unlike some other Western countries, the United States remains an overwhelmingly religious society. The BBC programme What the World Thinks of God examines the modern world's relationship with God. Among those taking part is Dr Richard Land who explains how profoundly religion influences American society and politics. The USA is a very religious society. Evidence abounds demonstrating Americans' deep and abiding religious convictions. A Gallup Poll released in November 2003 found that six out of ten Americans said that religion was "very important" in their lives. FAITH IN AMERICA Protestant (White Evangelical) 30% Roman Catholics 25% Protestant (Liberal) 20% Protestant (African-American) 8% Jewish 2% Other 15% Source: City University of New York (2001) In contrast, in Canada and the United Kingdom, two societies often perceived as quite similar to the United States, only 28% and 17% respectively described religion as similarly important in their lives. A survey done in 2001 by the City University of New York Graduate Center found that 85% of Americans identify with some religious faith. The same study concluded that by most standards the United States was a more professingly religious country than any European nations except Ireland and Poland. Conservative belief Most Americans believe in the literal truth of Old Testament stories The religious convictions of Americans tend toward the conservative end of the spectrum. An ABC news poll, done in February 2004, found that approximately 60% of Americans believe that the Genesis creation account, Noah's ark and a global flood, and Moses' parting of the Red Sea are "literally true." Belief in the literal veracity of these biblical accounts was highest among the fastest growing segment of American faith, evangelical Protestantism (nearly 90% acceptance). How does such robust religious faith impact and influence American government and the nation's domestic and foreign policies? Religious vote An ABC news exit poll taken on Election Day 2000 found that among the 42% of voters who attended religious services at least once a week, 58% voted for Bush. Conversely, Gore won 61% among the 14% of Americans who reported they never attended religious services. Perhaps 40% of President Bush's total raw vote was provided by self-identified "evangelical" Christians Dr Richard Land It is difficult to imagine the United States electing a candidate with the beliefs and policies of a George W. Bush, or for that matter a Ronald Reagan, without the strong role an increasingly conservative faith plays in tens of millions of Americans' lives. Some estimates conclude that perhaps 40% of President Bush's total raw vote was provided by self-identified "evangelical" Christians. Religion and society How does this deep and abiding religious belief impact American society? According to an ICM poll in January 2004, Americans believe in the supernatural (91%), an afterlife (74%), "belief in a God/higher power makes you a better human being" (82%), God or a higher power judged their actions (76%), and perhaps most tellingly "would die for their God/beliefs" (71%). In 1880 Dostoyevsky wrote in The Brothers Karamazov that "If God does not exist, then everything is permissible." The history of his native Russia, wracked by the atrocities of atheistic communism for most of the 20th century, serves as a most graphic example of the truth of his conclusion. Nazism, above all detested religion because it called for allegiance to something greater than the state, namely God. President Bush at the opening of a Bible fellowship centre in Texas When 71% of Americans say they would die for their faith, they are pledging allegiance to a loyalty beyond their loyalty to their country and are saying the exact polar opposite of "my country, right or wrong." It is very important at this point to make a critical distinction: to be willing to die for one's faith is utterly different than to kill for it. The overwhelming majority of Americans, religious and otherwise, would never feel that it is morally acceptable to kill, or even discriminate against, someone because they were of a differing faith or no faith. As an evangelical Christian, I would not only die for my faith, I would die for any person's right to live their lives according to the dictates of their own consciences. My personal commitment to the soul liberty of every human being is as deep as my commitment to Jesus Christ as my Saviour and Lord. Like virtually all Americans of faith, I believe that a person's relationship to his or her God is a sacred matter which no other human being or group of human beings (government or religious communion) has the right to forcibly interfere with or seek to coerce. As an evangelical Christian I believe in the right to share my faith and to seek to persuade others, as they have an equal right to seek to persuade me, but force or coercion - never! |
I guess I don't know what the US is mate
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| Originally posted by George Smiley "Er" is "you're talking rubbish!" Saying all America's military equipment comes from Israel is "talking rubbish" |
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| Originally posted by deibero rubbish my ass... first of all, i didnt say all of the arms... second, what you see and hear is what they want you to think, it isnt the real truth... america is receiving a lot of arms, tanks, bombs and whatever from israel, either you know it or not or the country admits it or not... |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley So if Israel and America are not admitting it, how exactly do you know? You haven't got a clue have you?! |
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| Originally posted by Lepanto dude he didn't say America isn't admitting it he said whether or not they do. For example, like the topic of Israel's nuclear arsenal. |
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| Originally posted by Lepanto dude he didn't say America isn't admitting it he said whether or not they do. For example, like the topic of Israel's nuclear arsenal. |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley Who said America has ever helped Israel produce nuclear weapons? |
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| Originally posted by Lepanto Do you know for certain that they didn't? One of America's strongest and top allies not having nuclear weapons? Who knows. |
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| As to the other post though I feel what you are saying, I feel that this thread has pointed out enough reasons for the alliance, the strongest around is the fact that Israel is the only democratic state in a region of totall Western hostillity. Let's go back to the time when the USSR was supporting Israel, let's say it remained that way to this day, do you think we would have the sort of knowledge and intelligence about the middle east as we do thanks to the Mossad (s/p) ? It's a complex alliance but you could say that about alot of countries. For example the alliance between the UK and the US amazes me after all the conflicts they went through at the early origin of the USA. |
Oh Almighty and Omnipotent George, you know more than all of us put together. You know exectly what the US as ONE entity (because we all know people in the US are all united under one morality and common sense) does and does not do.
How is the alliance pointless now? Shit you could argue that for any alliance that any country in the world holds with another that at one point they were needed and now "they are pointless". Fuck that, let's do what you say, let's just fuck everyone who was our friend yesterday because there is "no point in it"
You would make the biggest imbecile in politics if you were ever one.
You "lose" the election (whichever you're tlaking about) because they are our allies in the Middle East, no one else is, therefore if you cut your ties in the most important and threatfull (do not even start with this) region of the world, you're getting thrown outa office quicker than you can say PAC money.
Furthermore, during the Cold War we had much better "strategical" allies such as Turkey which were right of the coast of the Ukraine, the breadbasket of the USSR, we were even attempting to place rockets there during the Cuba Missile Crisis.
EDIT: ffs
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/special.html
the only link i care about looking up at the moment. This has been by far the most silly thread i've seen here.
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| Originally posted by Lepanto Oh Almighty and Omnipotent George, you know more than all of us put together. |
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| How is the alliance pointless now? Shit you could argue that for any alliance that any country in the world holds with another that at one point they were needed and now "they are pointless". Fuck that, let's do what you say, let's just fuck everyone who was our friend yesterday because there is "no point in it" |
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| You would make the biggest imbecile in politics if you were ever one. |
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| You "lose" the election (whichever you're tlaking about) because they are our allies in the Middle East, no one else is, therefore if you cut your ties in the most important and threatfull (do not even start with this) region of the world, you're getting thrown outa office quicker than you can say PAC money. |
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| Furthermore, during the Cold War we had much better "strategical" allies such as Turkey which were right of the coast of the Ukraine, the breadbasket of the USSR, we were even attempting to place rockets there during the Cuba Missile Crisis. |
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| EDIT: ffs http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...el/special.html the only link i care about looking up at the moment. This has been by far the most silly thread i've seen here. |
that link should explain more than enough. reason you don't understand it is well, sad? No, you're intelligent enough to gather resources and be informed but not enough to actually understand them apperantly. What is the point of explaining their alliance? Explain the UKs alliance with the US to me then, that's even wierder. The alliance between Israel and USA has just evolved from a simple alliance into a strong bond. That's pretty much all there to it. Who says everything Israel is doing is wrong? That's your own opinion however doesn't disclaim anything talked about in the link I've given. BTW, do not let the jewishpress thing in the site's name fool you since everything gathered from any other large media group would also be under "those darn Jews" jurisdiction seeing as how they pretty much run the Media in the US. And any foreign site could not possibly grasp the complexity and provide a sound explanation for the alliance.
once again
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...el/special.html
that explains it.
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| Originally posted by Lepanto that link should explain more than enough. reason you don't understand it is well, sad? No, you're intelligent enough to gather resources and be informed but not enough to actually understand them apperantly. What is the point of explaining their alliance? Explain the UKs alliance with the US to me then, that's even wierder. |
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| Who says everything Israel is doing is wrong? That's your own opinion however doesn't disclaim anything talked about in the link I've given. |
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| BTW, do not let the jewishpress thing in the site's name fool you since everything gathered from any other large media group would also be under "those darn Jews" jurisdiction seeing as how they pretty much run the Media in the US. |
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| And any foreign site could not possibly grasp the complexity and provide a sound explanation for the alliance. |
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| once again http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...el/special.html that explains it. |
doesn't the fact that there's only me and you left indicate that no one really cares anymore? There has been enough clarification about why US and Israel have a tight alliance, it started off one way and grew into a tight one. Why did the US become the country it is, economically or socially? no one really knows it just evolves into it.
/close thread.
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