TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Political Discussion / Debate
-- Is the war in Iraq worth your life if you joined the military?
Pages (4): « 1 2 [3] 4 »

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z You have got to be kidding me.

Seriously you lost me. Explain please

quote:

There is no reason for you to trust the media or the Govt and its affiliated agencies and institutions.

I know

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto ...so where do you get your news from exectly? or know what's going on in the world for that matter? The media isn't bad at all if you know how to decode and look deeper past headlines and such.

The media is bad even tho you think you can look through it imo. Unfortunetly you are right that we dont really have any better sources. Best thing is to rely on many different medias with different opinions, it takes a lot of time tho.

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto ...so where do you get your news from exectly? or know what's going on in the world for that matter? The media isn't bad at all if you know how to decode and look deeper past headlines and such.

From several different sources. Independent and corperate owned media, Human Rights Organizations, books etc. The only reason I check mainstream corperate owned media is to keep in touch with the official version of events which we're all supposed to accept and believe without question.

Go watch "Manufacturing Consent" or some other documentary/book about propoganda and media control. Do your own homework. It too long a subejct for me to go over in a few posts.

quote:

Originally posted by TheNobleEu Right, so when you're electrocuted to death working in a plant, it's your fault because even though you read the fine print, you understood this to be not a distant potential risk, but a probable one. After all, you signed the contract. Never disappoint yourself by expecting anything but sheeplike behaviour from sheep -- they know no different. Get away boy, ya' bother me. -N

I didnt write that section you quoted.

But i do agree with it.

When you sign up to a dangerous job, you should and are made aware of the consequences that may result. If you are an electrician, and you get electrocuted doing something RISKY, then it is your fault for performing that.

If the military asked you to join in the fight in Iraq and said things were all fine and dandy there.,.. that you would be protected and will never die, yet you see your friends being blown apart, then thats a different story.

Im sure people who sign up to serve in IRaq know EXACTLY what they are getting themselves into

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z From several different sources. Independent and corperate owned media, Human Rights Organizations, books etc. The only reason I check mainstream corperate owned media is to keep in touch with the official version of events which we're all supposed to accept and believe without question. Go watch "Manufacturing Consent" or some other documentary/book about propoganda and media control. Do your own homework. It too long a subejct for me to go over in a few posts.

And you think that's any different?

do your own homework? i've done plenty since my major for 3 years has been mass media. human right organizations are too extremes, books manifest the authors own opinions.

the media isn't there to MAKE u THINK or whatever. if the person is too dumb to check and double check facts and the news that they give you is what makes them easily controlled. the media itself is doing their own job as is the governemt.

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew The media is bad even tho you think you can look through it imo. Unfortunetly you are right that we dont really have any better sources. Best thing is to rely on many different medias with different opinions, it takes a lot of time tho.

the media itself aint bad they are just looking out for themselves just like everyone else...ok that wasn't really well put. point is it's not about the media or what news you get. it's what you do with it. the media is easy to look through but i still decide to wear H&M, or J.Crew or drive a toyota because i actually want to. it's a choice sorta.

point of the post was that if you think you got some alternative insight into the world from some internet source or someshit you're being played a fool.

quote:

Originally posted by TheNobleEu Pay attention to what you're quoting (not sure you're comprehension of English is sufficient).

You are getting off base with personal attacks. But anyway, a draft it is not. Those already in the service have an extended stay in the service by what "information" you have posted already.

quote:

You have the mechanism of a draft without it being called that -- it appears you're dependent on official labels in order to draw basic personal conclusions.

It's called newspeak.

quote:

Right, so when you're electrocuted to death working in a plant, it's your fault because even though you read the fine print, you understood this to be not a distant potential risk, but a probable one. After all, you signed the contract.

For once in your life be serious about job related injuries. If you electrocuted yourself to death as you say, it was most likely due to lack of safety training and adherence. When you signed on the job you agree that any death arising from your lack of adherence to safety protocol will be dealt with by not providing your survivors with any death benefits. See if your family can collect any death monies because you bypassed safety devices. You think an employer is not going to include this kind of language when you apply for a job in a dangerous job? Employers are not going to let themselves be liable for your mistakes.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King But i do agree with it. When you sign up to a dangerous job, you should and are made aware of the consequences that may result. If you are an electrician, and you get electrocuted doing something RISKY, then it is your fault for performing that. If the military asked you to join in the fight in Iraq and said things were all fine and dandy there.,.. that you would be protected and will never die, yet you see your friends being blown apart, then thats a different story. Im sure people who sign up to serve in IRaq know EXACTLY what they are getting themselves into

Please don't respond without reading the context of the thread and the conversation first. When you don't, your response is usually irrelevant, because it has already been touched on and invalidated, i.e., the above.

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 You are getting off base with personal attacks. But anyway, a draft it is not. Those already in the service have an extended stay in the service by what "information" you have posted already.

I'm not attacking you on this: you don't often seem to understand what's being said, and based on the quality of your writing English, I'm assuming it's a language barrier. There's nothing wrong with that -- you don't see anyone making an attempt to post in Spanish.

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 For once in your life be serious about job related injuries. If you electrocuted yourself to death as you say, it was most likely due to lack of safety training and adherence.

Case in point: you're either ignorant (read: unaware of the facts of the issue), or you're simply ignoring what's being said. The above it total nonsense, and could only be said by someone that has never held a job (or had a hobby!) that involves complex safety procedures.

No point in wasting my time when, after having had something explained to you from multiple angles, you just snip it all and ignore it, then spout the same, tired, unthinking claptrap.

I'll spend no more time on this.

-N

quote:

Originally posted by TheNobleEu Please don't respond without reading the context of the thread and the conversation first. When you don't, your response is usually irrelevant, because it has already been touched on and invalidated, i.e., the above. -N

HOw does my post not fit in with the contextof the thread???? Im correlating a job and the risks involved in it with the military service young men are signing up for in iraq.

Your parrallel reasoning is flawed....just like mr mustard.

quote:

Originally posted by smokeape I voted yes, though retired from military I am still working for the Army. You agree you pay the ultimate sacrifice by joining up in the military to defend our nation. We place you in harm's way. Units heading into a war zone are pretty well prepared not to die for their country even though they are headed into dangerous environs, but war is war and shit happens no matter how well prepared you are. You just hope you don't get killed for something stupid and avoidable instead of the unavoidable. The unavoidable circumstances, particularly IEDs, may start to look like avoidable circumstances these days after our experience with them. Ambushes are ambushes though, unexpected and sure to bring casualties, since they are initiated by the enemy on their own terms. Only avoidance is to eliminate the enemy as a threat if it's at all possible to hunt them down and kill them at a point in time so they don't have the means to launch an attack. [[[smoke]]]

Do you honestly think Bush and his people give a shit about you being blown up in Iraq?? You are worthless to them.. you protect his corporate buddies interests.. and if you get killed.. OH WELL... theyll just replace you like a can of tuna to be eaten by the hungry cats that await.

You die.. and disappear. Who suffers???? NOT BUSH!!!!!!!

I will restate this again.. bush and his people dont give a flying fuck about you or any other soldiers. You are replaceable robots..get that through your head.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King Whats this bullshit "protecting your country" crap. What are you protecting the USA from???? WMD's???? This veiled threat has and always will be indoctrinated by this ridiculous administration. Why are the soldiers in Iraq. Please give a coherent and reasonable and REALISTIC answer. So far.. my answer is that they are occupying Iraq.. that is why. and we all know why... becuase the poor iraqi's need to be saved... ahhahahhahahah

Iraq is just another order given by the government and since you are in the army you go because that is your job when you are told to go. Simple as that.

Why are the soldiers in Iraq? Because they were told to be in Iraq.

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil Iraq is just another order given by the government and since you are in the army you go because that is your job when you are told to go. Simple as that. Why are the soldiers in Iraq? Because they were told to be in Iraq.

I'm 90 percent sure that they (mostly) voted for Bush in the last election. What do you reckon that's all about? This isn't an argument or anything I'm just curious because i have quiet a few friends over there including a friend of mine who died overseas yet they still voted for Bush and support the war.

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil Iraq is just another order given by the government and since you are in the army you go because that is your job when you are told to go. Simple as that. Why are the soldiers in Iraq? Because they were told to be in Iraq.

I KNOW THEY ARE TOLD... the question is posed to clarify the DEEPER REASONINGS behind them being there.

You are defending the occupation for what reasons? We allknow that they should be there presently becuase of the chaotic situation..but that is probably the only reason why they should be there. "rebuilding" ameri... i mean Iraq is pretty scheduled on the neo-con agenda as we all know.

The robots that are TOLD what to do usually suffer by acting as the shields for corporate greed.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King I KNOW THEY ARE TOLD... the question is posed to clarify the DEEPER REASONINGS behind them being there. You are defending the occupation for what reasons? We allknow that they should be there presently becuase of the chaotic situation..but that is probably the only reason why they should be there. "rebuilding" ameri... i mean Iraq is pretty scheduled on the neo-con agenda as we all know. The robots that are TOLD what to do usually suffer by acting as the shields for corporate greed.

You asked me why they where there and I told you why the soldiers were there. I am not defending anything really, I believe now that we are there we can't just leave and let it turn even more into chaos. You call this occupation but the insurgents are just making it an occupation, let the political process work it's course, stop attacking US troops and we will be gone. Do you not believe that Iraq and the middle east in general will be better in the future without Saddam?

The reason that was given by the government for us to be there was WMD and their connections to terrorism, the former which was proven incorrect. I also think our government was made to think that the people would welcome us since Saddam was so evil so it would be an easy ride. On the side but not in the forefront where reasons such as Removing Saddam and helping to form another democratic state in the region. I think the benefit of the people of Iraq was not seen as a primary goal but was goal that would come as a result of one of the primary goals (such as removing saddam). You can't say it was to install a government because the leader we wanted and the type of government we wanted haven't been formed, remember we didn't want a federalized state based on Islam.

The reason we are there now is to attempt to keep the peace as you mentioned until the government is formed and can fight on their own. We have no reason to be there militarily after it is peaceful, we already have 2 bases in the region, one in the indian ocean, in germany, and forces in afghanistan and japan.

So there are the reasons as I see it. Also, yes I think life is better in the region now and will be better in Iraq in the years to come. Do I think it was worth our soldiers lives and $400billion? No.

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto I'm 90 percent sure that they (mostly) voted for Bush in the last election. What do you reckon that's all about? This isn't an argument or anything I'm just curious because i have quiet a few friends over there including a friend of mine who died overseas yet they still voted for Bush and support the war.

I don't know exactly what is in the head of other people but from what I gather they remembered the Bush who on 9/11 lifted the spirits of the country and showed a willingness to retaliate for the actions on our country and not just sit and cower. Perhaps also the soldiers supported the war because their own friends had been killed and they didn't want to leave Iraq without feeling a sense of accomplishment, hence making the war for nothing. Kerry seemed to willing to remove our troops and make consessions.

Just my guesses.

Very nicely put Niel. To further prove your point, life in Iraq has been better. I was reading newspaper in europe this summer how Iraq now has more phone lines, more computers, more televisions and programs. How history in schools is already being to be taught differently without the limits that a DICTATOR would put on it. Just to name a few.

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto Very nicely put Niel. To further prove your point, life in Iraq has been better. I was reading newspaper in europe this summer how Iraq now has more phone lines, more computers, more televisions and programs. How history in schools is already being to be taught differently without the limits that a DICTATOR would put on it. Just to name a few.

Iraq also has a couple huge bombs that blow up everyday, as well as the whole country in ruin along with the fact that each person hopes to see the light of tommorow.

Get real.. computers and phone lines??? Would you be happy to get a computer and then see a hotel being blown up???? you are so diluted.

You know whats worse than saddam??? THE FUNDEMENTALIST MUSLIMS that are worhipped there now, whom operate from IRAN.

One dictator out... religious fanatacism in!

OKAY USA!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto Very nicely put Niel. To further prove your point, life in Iraq has been better. I was reading newspaper in europe this summer how Iraq now has more phone lines, more computers, more televisions and programs. How history in schools is already being to be taught differently without the limits that a DICTATOR would put on it. Just to name a few.

If the newspapers or media in general told you that country x was a bad country you would believe it.

Time for me to open up my own newspaper business and sell stories about alien abductions and cow mutilations.


There's a sucker born every minute
P.T. Barnum

Don't believe the hype
Public Enemy

Ready made opinions can be distributed day by day through the press, radio, and so on, again and again, till they reach the nerve cell and implant a fixed pattern in the brain. Consequently, guided public opinion is the result, according to Pavlovian theoreticians, of good propaganda technique, and the polls [are] a verification of the temporary successful action of the Pavlovian machinations on the mind.
Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind: The Psychology of Thought Control, Menticide, and Brainwashing

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 If the newspapers or media in general told you that country x was a bad country you would believe it. Time for me to open up my own newspaper business and sell stories about alien abductions and cow mutilations. There's a sucker born every minute P.T. Barnum Don't believe the hype Public Enemy Ready made opinions can be distributed day by day through the press, radio, and so on, again and again, till they reach the nerve cell and implant a fixed pattern in the brain. Consequently, guided public opinion is the result, according to Pavlovian theoreticians, of good propaganda technique, and the polls [are] a verification of the temporary successful action of the Pavlovian machinations on the mind. Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind: The Psychology of Thought Control, Menticide, and Brainwashing

wrong. i am a media major so i know just a little bit more than the general person even though the golden rule is to never think you know more because the media is the most powerfull tool in this country.

i do my own research alot, but my post about iraq is from MANY sources and actual facts, not to mention the soldiers i know serving there.

Like I said before if the media said country x was a bad country then you and others would believe it.

One way the media knows how public opinion is shaping is through the use of polls.

Related from another threads:

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 One day when people see that they somehow (through no fault of their own) wind up in a situation that makes the Patriot Act apply to them will they complain of how unfair it is. This usually is linked to statements like: "If you don't do anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about." "Since you were arrested you must have been doing something wrong." "Laws are for those that break them." "Terrorists do not deserve the same rights as we do." These statements are usually found coming from people that have had preset ideas implanted into their minds. Mind control is either a good or bad tool depending on the result that you need. Want to quit smoking or make someone homicidal? Want to make someone buy your product or give away their liberties? Use mind control.

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 So why go by what a poll says? If 90% of the population said summary execution on detainees is allowable then you would be for it wouldn't you? When arrested for crimes against the state see how your demeanor changes in opposition.

Commercial speech such as that from news media does not have to be accurate.

On February 14, a Florida Appeals court ruled there is absolutely nothing illegal about lying, concealing or distorting information by a major press organization. The court reversed the $425,000 jury verdict in favor of journalist Jane Akre who charged she was pressured by Fox Television management and lawyers to air what she knew and documented to be false information. The ruling basically declares it is technically not against any law, rule, or regulation to deliberately lie or distort the news on a television broadcast.
On August 18, 2000, a six-person jury was unanimous in its conclusion that Akre was indeed fired for threatening to report the station's pressure to broadcast what jurors decided was "a false, distorted, or slanted" story about the widespread use of growth hormone in dairy cows. The court did not dispute the heart of Akre's claim, that Fox pressured her to broadcast a false story to protect the broadcaster from having to defend the truth in court, as well as suffer the ire of irate advertisers.
Appellate Court Rules Media Can Legally Lie (Wayback link)

vote