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Originally posted by Jayx1 a police report validates the reporting of what then becomes news. If someone is a suspect after a police report is filed it means that you are pretty much safe to talk about it in a public forum. Even then you have to be careful but it would doubtfully ever come to court since there was police action behind it. If the guy has been charged, obviously the police have enough evidence to charge them. However, making allegations based on assumption or hearsay is an entirely different matter. And everytime i hear allegations against guv or system employees in tranceaddict its always based on assumptions and hearsay. This is what consitutes libel or slander in the eyes of the law. People need to remember that this is a public forum and that the laws of the land do apply. I happen to agree with the libel/slander laws. I dont happen to agree with media bans and gag orders. However either way we still have to comply with both laws on this board.

However, to say that any comment on this board has actually caused a economic loss to any club is crazy. The comments can only be considered libel/slander if there has been a financial loss. Any individual or business would also have to prove that what was said is in fact not true....it is not up to the person who made the comments to prove they are true.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 At Chemenhanced libel trial: Judge, i present to you exhibit A as proof of damages to reputation and/or loss of income: LOL

I will pay the extra $10.00 this weekend then

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Originally posted by Jayx1 it wouldnt be hard to prove that making allegations on a dance music public message board about a dance music playing establishment is detrimental to a reputation and costing money. Its a no brainer.

Even if every person on TA who goes there stopped....there still wouldn't be a marked economic loss that could be contributed to comments made on a message board.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 it wouldnt be hard to prove that making allegations on a dance music public message board about a dance music playing establishment is detrimental to a reputation and costing money. Its a no brainer.

You would think, however, this is not the case. The aggrieved party would have to prove a) a demonstrable decrease in revenue, b) an unequivable cause for that decrease in revenue, c) a direct and unmitigated causal relationship between the alleged libelous statement and the cause for the decrease in revenue. Given that there there have been next to no damage awards for Libel or Slander in Ontario in the past hundred years I would suggest that this is a very difficult thing to prove. FYI, most lawyers will not even consider taking a libel case as they are never successful.

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced Any individual or business would also have to prove that what was said is in fact not true....it is not up to the person who made the comments to prove they are true.

sorry but you're incorrect on this one.... claiming an alleged libelous statement to be true is a defence that can be employed by the alleged tortfeasor. There is no reverse onus of proof for slander/libel. That said, the aggrieved party will often endevor to disprove the libelous statement as a counter to the tortfeasor's affirmative defence that the statement was true.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard You would think, however, this is not the case. The aggrieved party would have to prove a) a demonstrable decrease in revenue, b) an unequivable cause for that decrease in revenue, c) a direct and unmitigated causal relationship between the alleged libelous statement and the cause for the decrease in revenue. Given that there there have been next to no damage awards for Libel or Slander in Ontario in the past hundred years I would suggest that this is a very difficult thing to prove. FYI, most lawyers will not even consider taking a libel case as they are never successful.

so what you are saying is that we can get thrown in jail and deported for saying an event in history never happened but yet cant even get sued if we make damaging statements against someone personally.

What a fucked up country this is.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 so what you are saying is that we can get thrown in jail and deported for saying an event in history never happened but yet cant even get sued if we make damaging statements against someone personally. What a fucked up country this is.

that's not quite what I'm saying but I like where you're going with this. What I said was that one can sue someone for libel/slander, however, it is nearly impossible to prove damages resulting from libel/slander and subsequently nearly all (if not entirely all) libel/slander tort actions fail.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard that's not quite what I'm saying but I like where you're going with this. What I said was that one can sue someone for libel/slander, however, it is nearly impossible to prove damages resulting from libel/slander and subsequently nearly all (if not entirely all) libel/slander tort actions fail.

so what good is a law if it cant be enforced. that essentially means there is no law.

There are absolutely no rights for the common man in many realms of our society. We are too busy pandering to the special interests.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 so what good is a law if it cant be enforced. that essentially means there is no law. There are absolutely no rights for the common man in many realms of our society. We are too busy pandering to the special interests.

au contrare mon ami, the requirement that one be able to prove damages in order to receive restitution for libel/slander is for the protection of the common man. It is far more likely that the common man will be the alleged tortfeasor in a libel suit then will a corporate, commercial, or governmental entity. If it were not for the requirement that damages be demonstrable and causal then the tortfeasors in libel suits would be subject to punitive damages, which would almost certainly be in excess of the claimed damages. Moreover, how is it possible that one has suffered a loss by another's statement if the aggrieved party cannot prove that loss? The courts can't go awarding damages just because someone says they lost money due to a negative comment.... if they did people would be sued everytime they made any criticism of another.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 so what good is a law if it cant be enforced. that essentially means there is no law. There are absolutely no rights for the common man in many realms of our society. We are too busy pandering to the special interests.

It can be enforced. For someone to say they suffered a financial loss and proving it is difficult....if we didn't have to prove a financial loss then if I called you an idiot then you could sue me for a libel/slander. Everytime someone was called a name they would sue that person...it would get out of control.

Where most libel/slander cases are found is with media broadcasts or newspapers. Even then.....in Canada it is rare that you would find a situation where there is no some truth to the allegations.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 If the guy has been charged, obviously the police have enough evidence to charge them.

ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. Lives have been ruined in some 'child pornography cases' in TO a few years back. Police held a press conference, named names of people 'who have downloaded child pornography' based on seeing their names on some credit card charges of some companies they were watching. What they didn't realize is that some of the occused had purchased regular porn, but it was billed to a company that apparently had other child porn sites. In the end the charges were dropped, but the lives were still ruined, jobs lost, reputations in the gutter, and 1 guy was so devastated by the mix up, and never received a public apology or press conference that they made a mistake, that he fell into such a deep depression and killed himself.

Seriously tho- if u saw someone who was packing a piece in a club, do u really think the cops are gonna respond to your call?
"Hey, I'm in this club and a guy has a gun in here"
(police) "So? Go tell security"
"But security let him in..."

Ya, that would go over real well. Esp. since I have never seen a cop step foot in the clubs here.

It's a good thing we have our fantastic gun-registry to protect us! I feel SO safe now!

Please Mr. Liberal, continue to protect us!

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Originally posted by Spam It's a good thing we have our fantastic gun-registry to protect us! I feel SO safe now! Please Mr. Liberal, continue to protect us!

You could completely outlaw guns in the country and it still wouldn't stop this problem. It is almost impossible to get a hand gun licence and the requirements to even have the gun leave your house are insane. These are illegal guns and these will get into the country whether you register guns or not. That being said....I still hate the gun registry...being a gun owner I don't mind having to register my fire arms but it's a waste of tax payers money

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced You could completely outlaw guns in the country and it still wouldn't stop this problem. It is almost impossible to get a hand gun licence and the requirements to even have the gun leave your house are insane. These are illegal guns and these will get into the country whether you register guns or not. That being said....I still hate the gun registry...being a gun owner I don't mind having to register my fire arms but it's a waste of tax payers money

simple solution to this 10 years minimum if caught with illegal guns. im sure som crazies will still carry them but these young wanna be thugs will think twice im sure. plus with the added risk the cost of a gun on the street will go way up.

Jayx1 and DigiNut you guys are so out alone in the left field on your interpretations


I may not work for an Insurance Company but I have worked in the system and Chem and Moral know their shit...so guys...seriously, you need to rationalize and think b4 you make statements and back each other up

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Originally posted by Spam It's a good thing we have our fantastic gun-registry to protect us! I feel SO safe now! Please Mr. Liberal, continue to protect us!

Spam you got my vote for "Ignorant Comment of the Year" award.

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Originally posted by Carney simple solution to this 10 years minimum if caught with illegal guns. im sure som crazies will still carry them but these young wanna be thugs will think twice im sure. plus with the added risk the cost of a gun on the street will go way up.

I disagree with you completely. Stiffer penalties do not act as a deterant. The reason for this is quite simple.... people who commit illegal acts do not think they will get caught. Just like all of us who speed, we do so because we are pretty confident that we will not get caught. Besides that, for the young wanna be's the whole reason to pack heat is because it is illegal.... 'cause if you gots a piece you must be str8 gangsta!

The answer isn't less guns it's more guns. Let's arm everyone over the age of 18. Believe me everyone will think twice about pulling a gun if they know everyone in the room/bar/street/mall/gay bath house has one too.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I disagree with you completely. Stiffer penalties do not act as a deterant. The reason for this is quite simple.... people who commit illegal acts do not think they will get caught. Just like all of us who speed, we do so because we are pretty confident that we will not get caught. Besides that, for the young wanna be's the whole reason to pack heat is because it is illegal.... 'cause if you gots a piece you must be str8 gangsta! The answer isn't less guns it's more guns. Let's arm everyone over the age of 18. Believe me everyone will think twice about pulling a gun if they know everyone in the room/bar/street/mall/gay bath house has one too.

OK Moral...let's take it easy now. No need for the sarcasm or jokes about ever1 carrying guns. Though I understand your frustration on it.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard The answer isn't less guns it's more guns. Let's arm everyone over the age of 18. Believe me everyone will think twice about pulling a gun if they know everyone in the room/bar/street/mall/gay bath house has one too.

Well I think that is going to the extreme....the best thing to do is take all the wannabe gangsters and actual gangsters and put them in an arena with all the guns they could imagine.....televise this on pay per view and lets have a little fun....you could even have snipers up in the rafters to get things going if the shootings slow down. last one standing...true survivor.

Geeze craig...even here we get confused with each other

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced Geeze craig...even here we get confused with each other

Hey hey hey...heheheh it was an honest mistake...and it's been corrected now

Cut me some slack will ya...I'm sitting here dealing with the drama of my car broken into.

Oh and guess what everyone...The cops don't give a shit again. Boy what a surprise...LOL...and then I read Jay and Dig talking about slander as if they actually knew what they were talkin bout. LOL

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Originally posted by b4k-oz Hey hey hey...heheheh it was an honest mistake...and it's been corrected now Cut me some slack will ya...I'm sitting here dealing with the drama of my car broken into.

Well if you want any assistance with the insurance claim....just let Moral or I know

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced Well if you want any assistance with the insurance claim....just let Moral or I know

Hey thanks..I may take you up on dat when it comes to renewal time. Dunno yet what I'm gonna do now.

I can't believe I got quoted $1000 to repair side door glass. WTF is this world coming to.

^^^ is it just the glass that's damaged? If so that seems pretty high.

Just to add something to this discussion, I think there are many people in here (myself included) that can attest to shady goings-on at several clubs in Toronto. As a sex trade researcher, I had several girls tell me of a number of prostitutes and pimps working out of The Guv targetting tourists. I dismissed this as 'word on the street' until I was propositioned at the Marco V show in February. The girl wanted $300 for an hour (definitely targetting high-rolling gino tourists). As I researched a little further, I found out that management is well aware of this situation and tolerates it. Hearsay and rumour? Hardly. The reputation of The Guv was good enough to make the World Sex Guide, a largely reliable source on the international sex trade.

The point of this little story. If there is pretty strong indications of one type of shady activity being allowed at a club, it is not libelous to suggest that a similar activity is also occuring (in this case, waving dealers or armed patrons into the club).

Does this damage the club's reputation? Considering that some European and American clubs are famous for their shady reputations and have suffered no loss in patronage, arguing harm is very difficult.

The reality for Joe Clubber is to understand that ANY club can be potentially dangerous and that nobody should be getting so drunk/high that they are no longer aware of their surroundings.

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