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-- [Politics] Has John Howard done a good job?
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i don't really wanna say a whole lot cause i don't think i have the knowledge to back it up but i think i am against howard because i don't agree with some of the idealogies behind the liberal party. i don't understand how the majority of the nation can vote for someone that has blatently lied to and mislead them on numerous occasions. i don't like that australia participated in the invasion of a nation on false or at the least very weak pretences and disregarding the united nations. i don't like how australia has almost completely ignored the fate of one of its citizens and showed a complete disregard to his rights as an australian citizen. i don't like the idea of the new anti-terror laws, i don't think terrorism can ever be really stopped, and i think there are too many negatives to these laws than positives, i mean you can be detained without charge and representation because you say met up with your friends at a cafe and one of them lives with someone under surveilence (sp? sorry) or may have mentioned some "key words" or something on the phone, we have already seen what can happen with a "shoot to kill" policy in britain, a completely innocent man was killed, did absolutely nothing suspicious, just happened to be living in the same building as a possible suspect and now his family have to put up with seeing videos of him being shot 8 times in the head. how the hell do you think you would like to experience that??? it could happen!!!

things like debt don't mean anything to me, the government would rather have you paying rent and increasing interest rates than letting you own your own home without a mortgage or anything. why don't the government lower the excise on petrol to help the motorists? why does the price of petrol have to fluctuate on a daily basis in the first place? thats not so much a government question though. i dont get how the price of crude oil changing means every single day the price of petrol has to go up or down, do the companies buy huge shipments every single day?

and our good buddie dr nelson, im sure it took him ages to pay off his hecs debt oh thats right he didnt have one! (i think i dont know exactly how long ago hecs was introduced but i think im right ) not everyone on this board uses childcare, or local libraries, or goes to the park, but their families all pay rates don't they? do you understand that maybe not you but others need these services? sure maybe some or a lot of people would rather not pay as much uni fees each semester but then dont you still want to go to the bar? or get representation if you need it? or support from uni councillors? or go to a bbq or ball or an event of any other kind held by a club at uni? i have a biased view on this i guess cause this year im president of a club at uni but there is so much stuff that you get from those fees here at least that without them would almost be non existent or very threatened at least. yeah it can be a pain to pay but then you get to enjoy the benefits of it and if you dont well then sorry if your uni is shit or you dont take advantage of your time there.

and immigration, far out this country is built on immigration! i can see the arguments "well why dont they come the proper way like everyone else" and "fucken queue jumpers why should they be special" well you know fuck if your husband has just been murdered by the government and you dont really wanna stay where you are you might not have a choice but to get on someones dodgy boat and come here, fuck what crimes have they committed to deserve being locked up in a prison while they are checked out? and what kind of government deports its own citizens by accident because they cant even look after them properly and check them out?

what kind of government sacrifices its own production and workers to get on the good side of the yanks with a free trade agreement? get a backbone johnny and tell mr dubya "fuck off im not sending my fucking SAS who could rip your troops to shreds on some stupid fucked up invasion unless you take my fucking steel and corn flakes too!"




eh a bit longer than i expected but ah well

quote:

Originally posted by Philby fuck what crimes have they committed to deserve being locked up in a prison while they are checked out?

Perhaps because they have burnt/destroyed or whatever they do and dont have papers. Lets allow them to roam around while the g'ment tries to find out exactly who they are. Thing is though nearly every country has the same problem, minus where these people are coming from, because who wants to run there. Don't see a problem with our current immigration laws.

im not saying put them up in the fuckin hyatt or something but seriously i doubt most of them are criminals, surely they could get better conditions. its literally driving them insane. and fuckin why outsource all this shit? selling telstra and stuff, privitisation of utilities and things like private transport and prisons, hospitals too? at least if its government run then its accountable to the people, once you start selling shit off like that then its only accountable to the shareholders, and the shareholders just want more profit. and people do anything just to get more profit. which usually involves something making the service they are providing less efficient or reliable.

quote:

Originally posted by Philby im not saying put them up in the fuckin hyatt or something but seriously i doubt most of them are criminals, surely they could get better conditions.

Whats so bad about their current conditions?
Do they not have a roof over their head, do they not get adequate food?

i guess it depends on what you think is adequate food or treatment, im sure as hell not complaining that i dont have barbed wire fences around my windows but hey whatever floats your boat (or sinks it and throws children overboard )

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Originally posted by Philby i guess it depends on what you think is adequate food or treatment,

You have yet to tell me whats so inadequate though?

whack em in a nursing home.

there, problems solved

quote:

Originally posted by narcism You have yet to tell me whats so inadequate though?

well i said in my first post i might not know enough to back it up

you are basically locked up, that seems pretty inadequate to me at least. being surrounded by an electric fence instead of a nice picket or brick fence i think is inadequate. being denied access to medication i would say is inadequate. being punished for complaining that personal belongings were not transferred along with him from another detention centre i would say is inadequate. not having fresh water running throughout the day i would also say is inadequate.

I think John Howard has lost the plot.

He is usually an excellent judge of public opinion, he has an incredible nack of testing which way the wind blows. But this IR legislation.....he has completely lost it.

Every single person I've spoken to are against this shit, and I mean everyone!!! People are really pissed off.

Anyone interested there will be a huge protest on the 15th of November 2005 (Australia wide). We may not be able to reach Howard, but we can send a very clear message to the Liberal members in the Senate that if they want to keep their jobs....they vote this legislation down.

BTW this'll be my first protest.....(I'm getting excited)

Whatever you think of the liberal party, one thing is clear: John Howard is not going anyway until the I.R. reforms are throught the Senate. He has waited 30 years (since his last opportunity, as Treasurer, lost to the then P.M.) for these reforms to be realised. He's not going until they're through.

Whatever happens then will probably depend on the political outlook at the time.

i agree with narcism nothing wrong with our immigration laws. If someone without the best intentions got into australia with no records, they could do some damage. the anti-terror and IR shit is just fucked though.
And the government can't do much about petrol prices without causing more problems, like shortages, according to my economics book anyway.

sure he's done/is doing some fucked up things, but all politicians do, people think labour might do a better job, coz of some of the shit they promised, but it just means they're gunna do something dodgey in some other area.

I am one of those people that likes to throw their vote away every year. You can't win with any government, you just gotta put up with it

quote:

Originally posted by Philby you are basically locked up, that seems pretty inadequate to me at least. being surrounded by an electric fence instead of a nice picket or brick fence i think is inadequate. being denied access to medication i would say is inadequate. being punished for complaining that personal belongings were not transferred along with him from another detention centre i would say is inadequate. not having fresh water running throughout the day i would also say is inadequate.

How do u know they dont have medication and fresh water ?

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Originally posted by narcism You have yet to tell me whats so inadequate though?

dude, youre talking about putting ppl in jail. i dont expect jail is up there with disneyland on places to visit.

some of these people come from countries we had a personal involvement in destablising. im not saying we shouldnt have some kind of system in place, but keeping ppl (inc children) locked up for years without an idea of when it might end isnt right.

at the end of the day i dont think that i should have any more right to live in australia just coz thats where my parents happened to fvck.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN dude, youre talking about putting ppl in jail. i dont expect jail is up there with disneyland on places to visit.

yes and its my understanding all jails high and low security have a medical officer and running water.
Its no indonesian jail we are sitting them in.

i thought you were a bit smarter than that narcism

quote:

Originally posted by lorderan I think John Howard has lost the plot. He is usually an excellent judge of public opinion, he has an incredible nack of testing which way the wind blows. But this IR legislation.....he has completely lost it. Every single person I've spoken to are against this shit, and I mean everyone!!! People are really pissed off. Anyone interested there will be a huge protest on the 15th of November 2005 (Australia wide). We may not be able to reach Howard, but we can send a very clear message to the Liberal members in the Senate that if they want to keep their jobs....they vote this legislation down. BTW this'll be my first protest.....(I'm getting excited)

No he hasn't completely lost it. John Howard is fully aware of what he's doing. In many respects, this is what he want's to be remembered for. I guess it's a life-long obsession, and nothing will stand in his way, not even Barnaby Joyce (the National's senator who holds balance of power in the Senate) or a dissenting public. Hence the associated "information campaign" will probably stay with us well after the legislation is passed (whether or not it changes people's minds).

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i thought you were a bit smarter than that narcism

Prove to me that these people dont have any water.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i thought you were a bit smarter than that narcism

I thought you pkc were smarter than that too.

i've found out whats so inadequate about these places

quote:

Fires and riots have broken out in at least 4 of the 7 asylum seeker detention centers in mainland Australia and in a detention center for boat people on Christmas Island. On the same weekend fires destroyed at least 20 rooms were destroyed at the Baxter detention center when inmates apparently set bedding, furniture and shower curtains alight.

they burnt what they had

quote:

Reports of the sixteen hunger strikers, although the wording is minimal, indicate that the strike has reached a stage where critical organs start to be damaged beyond recovery.

They dont want to eat our food.

quote:

Amongst the Iranian men are now those who pass blood in their urine, in addition to a general weakness - even people who had just returned from the hospital in Port Augusta had to be assisted to sit up to ingest water

They dont get medical attention either.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ_Ballistic I am one of those people that likes to throw their vote away every year. You can't win with any government, you just gotta put up with it

i can see why someone would think like that, but if the majority of the population think along the same lines then the whole democratic system becomes a joke.

cue voluntary voting a la Americas (which is even more of a joke).

quote:

Originally posted by narcism Prove to me that these people dont have any water.

quote:

These use brackish water that only runs for about six hours, spread over various parts of the day.

from an australian senator's visit to one of the detention centres
http://www.refugeeaction.org/inside/bartlett_nauru.htm

quote:

Originally posted by Philby from an australian senator's visit to one of the detention centres http://www.refugeeaction.org/inside/bartlett_nauru.htm

good on u for picking one thats not in australia

quote:

Originally posted by narcism Prove to me that these people dont have any water.

quote:

Originally posted by narcism Its no indonesian jail we are sitting them in.

this is what im referring to. im not arguing whether they have running water or not. its like youre saying "oh, its an australian jail, thats perfectly ok". big fences surrounding various detention facilities, some of which are not much more than sheds sometimes in very hot conditions. they can be there many many years, with no hope, sometimes seeing their children grow up behind razor wire.

thats no way for a human being to live that wanted nothing more than to leave a painful existance and have some of the freedoms and opportunities we're so fvcking lucky to have.

"its no indonesian jail we are sitting them in" makes a mockery of the suffering of many incarcerated "illegal" immigrants.

quote:

Originally posted by Trance Nutter I thought you pkc were smarter than that too.

im a constant disappointment.

quote:

Originally posted by narcism good on u for picking one thats not in australia

haha
well its run by australia so it still counts

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Originally posted by Philby haha well its run by australia so it still counts

no it doesnt because the people living on that island probably dont have running water either.

quote:

its like youre saying "oh, its an australian jail, thats perfectly ok". big fences surrounding various detention facilities, some of which are not much more than sheds sometimes in very hot conditions. they can be there many many years, with no hope, sometimes seeing their children grow up behind razor wire.

I used the indonesian jail system as an example to highlight that they could be living in worse conditions than australia.

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