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-- Do you want to do something about the homeless people you see?
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Originally posted by Moral Hazard You cannot equate the free-market system to being part and parcel with christian based morality or any other construct of Christianity.

Yes I can! The free-market system survives because of the security given to it from our governments. There is a notion of "justice" in this governance (e.g. SEC). That same notion of justice provides for those who can't provide for themselves. Tax-free charitable organizations are a part of the same economic system. We save money on tax so that poor people can benefit. The whole damn thing works together and once people start dying out of greed for having more money for non-homeless, the system will fall apart, because we'll be losing the value of sympathy (which, IMO, is embedded in our society's definition of "justice").

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard The problem I have particularly with homelessness (but also with other things such as sub-saharan starvation and excessive care for the terminally ill) is that we must learn to recognize that if the cost exceeds the benefit then we as a people are hurt, not helped, by it.

I believe that support for charity can also be argued on a utilitarian level. Although you don't see a dollar value to the benefit, that's not the only measure. Like you recognized earlier, that warm and fuzzy feeling we have inside when we helped someone in need is a HUGE piece of our social fabric, nay part of HUMANITY!!! Giving to charity and sincerely feeling the blessings (of God OR FATE) is part of what keeps us going, keeps us motivated to continue in our lives (aside from owning a Ferrari one day, of course ).

I know you don't believe in religion and things like fasting, but to feel the suffering of people who are hungry is part of the reason why we fasted during Ramadan. So if staying out in the not-too-cold November night brings me that much closer to humility, then so be it! Even then, I'm spoiled because I don't want to experience it alone like so many homeless people do--I want to be with friends!

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced I think you should hold off on feeling bad for them until you know why they are homeless.

That is the most important post in this thread, and the most important statement about homelessness in general.

Well played, sir.

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Originally posted by fayraree The free-market system survives because of the security given to it from our governments.

And THAT is positively the most ridiculous post in this thread... and the most ridiculous idea I've heard about the free market in general.

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Originally posted by MarkT - a significant percentage of the homeless are indeed mentally ill and in need of ongoing treatment. Problem: unless someone poses an imminent danger to either themselves or the public, you can't force them to obtain treatment. Many won't accept treatment and many aren't in the frame of mind to seek it out even if they do want it. It's a bit of a cyclical issue and I'm honeslty not sure how to solve it.

+1

u say that u shouldn't help them because they don't want help, but a lot are not in the proper mindset to mae those decisions. Many have lsipped through the system, with no one to look after them, and unable to do it themselves. to say that we should allow them to die is inhumane and we would be affording them less compassion we do the our pets

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Originally posted by DigiNut That is the most important post in this thread, and the most important statement about homelessness in general. Well played, sir. And THAT is positively the most ridiculous post in this thread... and the most ridiculous idea I've heard about the free market in general.

hey aaron..refute without mockery...lesson #1

i still think my zoo idea would work.

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Originally posted by chanoa hey aaron..refute without mockery...lesson #1

You should follow your own advice. Or did you just learn that in class today?

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Originally posted by DigiNut You should follow your own advice. Or did you just learn that in class today?

last week :P

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Originally posted by DigiNut You should follow your own advice. Or did you just learn that in class today?

oh man this is getting good. too bad i got to readthis damn flamewar with a thesaraus and a dictionary. for fuck sakes lets dumb it down. make a momma joke or something

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Originally posted by DigiNut And THAT is positively the most ridiculous post in this thread... and the most ridiculous idea I've heard about the free market in general.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough for you. The free-market ECONOMIC system is protected by our government (through its legislative/judicial system). And I was simply connecting this protection/security to a definition of justice which involves sympathy.

One more thought: GOOD = help people live; BAD = let people die. Sorry to bring it up again, but this is connected to my (and general society's) idea of suicide.

EDIT:
One mo' mofoin' thought: GOOD = help Vivid's momma live; BAD = let Vivid's momma die.

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Originally posted by Vivid Boy oh man this is getting good. too bad i got to readthis damn flamewar with a thesaraus and a dictionary. for fuck sakes lets dumb it down. make a momma joke or something

Your momma so stupid, she thought Taco Bell was a mexican phone company.

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Originally posted by Vivid Boy oh man this is getting good. too bad i got to readthis damn flamewar with a thesaraus and a dictionary. for fuck sakes lets dumb it down. make a momma joke or something

Hey Eric, I didn't know the squeegee kids had internet these days. Where are you working today, St. Jamestown?

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Originally posted by DigiNut Hey Eric, I didn't know the squeegee kids had internet these days. Where are you working today, St. Jamestown?

nah actually i got contracted by ur mother squeeging cumshots off her teeth

oh shit

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Originally posted by fayraree Sorry I wasn't clear enough for you. The free-market ECONOMIC system is protected by our government (through its legislative/judicial system). And I was simply connecting this protection/security to a definition of justice which involves sympathy.

You're connecting two things which have no connection whatsoever. In a free market, the government exists for security ONLY - to protect against external threats and to protect the individual's right to private property.

It is in a SOCIALIST system where government policy is based on "sympathy", NOT a free market. Sympathy as a policy is anti-free-market and detrimental to an economy in general because it treats ambition and success with malice while rewarding failure. Sympathy is wasted in the context of national policy because when you raise things above the individual case to a statistical level (which is what you are doing), then you are subsidizing failure and punishing success, which inevitably results in more failure and less success. The best we can do as a society, both economically AND MORALLY, is empower people to become self-sufficient by allowing them to make their own life choices and keep the fruits of their labour. If some people "slip through the cracks", so be it - we can feel sorry for them, but we can not fix their broken lives.

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One more thought: GOOD = help people live; BAD = let people die.

On an individual level, yes. On a societal level, it is wrong and immoral for one man to dictate how and to what extent another man should care for the needy. That is anti-freedom and certainly not "justice".

On the individual level, think of it this way: neither you nor I can afford to provide for every homeless person we see. How "GOOD" would it be to pick and choose based on some shallow criteria (like how pathetic they look) which ones we should help? Perhaps it would be better to treat them all equally - if one is inclined to help, then they can give to a private charity which will do what it can.

I guess my take on the situation, in general, is that people need to accept responsibility for their actions.

i.e. those who choose to be homeless ("I don't like my parents rules") or choose to reject help (for whatever reason)...fine, let them be. Who are we to force help on anyone. Btw., not doing anything to help yourself (while still able to do so) is as much a choice as any other...inaction IS a choice.

mental and physical illness or disability is another issue altogether though...and I think that ought to be a mitigating factor in many cases.

we rehab drug addicts who have made a conscious choice (in most cases) to do drugs...hell, we rehab criminals who have made conscious choices to break the law...so can we not allocate similar resources the homeless who are mentally ill and maybe just need a hand-up?

DigiNut (and anyone else who's said it) is quite right...WHY someone is homeless is key to whether or not society, as a whole, should give a shit (IMHO, anyway).

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Originally posted by Vivid Boy nah actually i got contracted by ur mother squeeging cumshots off her teeth

Hey that's great buddy, you're moving up in the world! I'm sure it's only a matter of time now before you can afford to buy a different toothbrush for your mouth and your ass.

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Originally posted by DigiNut You're connecting two things which have no connection whatsoever.

They're connected because the Canadian system isn't a free-market economy (I thought both you and Moral would have understood that when I said the system here wasn't "pure but you know what I mean"). I'm mixing the two because in reality, there is a mix. The North American and E.U. systems wouldn't work without that mix. Moral thinks they would. Impossible because of our human nature. Would you like me to repeat that again in case you continue to misunderstand me?

Your argument is about theoretical principles. I take it that tiered income tax classifies as your "malice" against ambition and success. That is a very narrow-minded approach.

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Originally posted by DigiNut when you raise things above the individual case to a statistical level (which is what you are doing), then you are subsidizing failure and punishing success, which inevitably results in more failure and less success.

I don't see how our economy has shrunk at all...it continues to grow (i.e. become more successful) as standards of living improve and the unemployment rate goes down (i.e. less failure). Spending money on housing/employment programs and training for the jobless/homeless does help (at the cost of the general public). The benefit here is not necessarily ROI but intangibles such as the reduction in unemployment (that number doesn't physically help anyone but it makes us FEEL better), and basically, taking care of that feeling of sympathy.

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Originally posted by DigiNut On an individual level, yes. On a societal level, it is wrong and immoral for one man to dictate how and to what extent another man should care for the needy. That is anti-freedom and certainly not "justice".

I don't understand you here...how is one man dictacting how another man cares for the needy? Our GOVERNMENT through the PM and Parliament decide what type of tax relief and funding for domestic and international charities we have. Is that considered anti-freedom and unjust?

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Originally posted by DigiNut Perhaps it would be better to treat them all equally - if one is inclined to help, then they can give to a private charity which will do what it can.

I agree 100%. However, the resulting benefit is the same: you will feel better by donating to a charity where you will not see the immediate benefit (as I do) or you can donate on a daily basis to see someone smile in front of you and thank you. Either way, you are doing it to "help" because you have sympathy. And like I said before, this sympathy is embedded into our socio-politico-economic system.

I get so sick of all the people looking for hand-outs
I like chinamon's idea

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Originally posted by Floorwhore Well i guess i could hold on to my loonie next time, so he's forced to do something more drastic to survive like say.... get a hold of a gun, hold it to my head at the intersection instead of a squeegy to my windshield, and rob me of my possessions!!?? Or blow my brains out. He doesn't really have anything to lose does he? I'll keep feeding the loonies to the squeegy kids. Keeps my windshield bird shit free, and the kids from snapping out and doing something violent.

This is the dumbest post I've read in a while.

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Originally posted by tom-e-techs I get so sick of all the people looking for hand-outs I like chinamon's idea

damn right!

spitty i agree with u on the mental state of a lot of the homeless people in our city. I volunteered with this orgainzation called out of the cold one winter a couple times. U drive around in a van with a couple other ppl handing out warm soup, warm drinks, clothing, really whatever they could provide for these ppl. We went all over the city, and even down under random bridges where some people lived. THe mental state a good majority of these people were in was out of this world! i sympathized with a lot of these people, even though they were a little rough on the edges and a little scary. I think if more people volunteer with organizations like this it can help. It was definetly an eye opener for me, and if you havent tried anything like this before, i would recommened it

I think something that alot of people don't realize is that alot of homeless are OK WITH BEING HOMELESS and DO NOT wish to be helped. As crazy as it sounds. They (some) become accustomed to the way of life living downtown and begging for crack money, and have no intentions of changing anything. Their standards have been lowered so much that homelessness is just their lifestyle. As the saying goes, you cannot help someone that doesn't want to be helped.

I once knew a guy from partying days a long time ago who was voluntarily homeless. He would come from his parents house in Brampton and panhandle downtown for drug money and sleep outside. His friends were in similar situations. They had families to go to but chose to be street kids.

It is your STANDARDS that guides your life. I guarantee you that if you took everything I own every last penny but one change of clothes and kicked me out on the street, I would have a place to stay (without help from friends, without blowing people's heads off! or anything else illegal) within a month. No question. There's no reason why anyone else couldn't do it (yes, exceptions: mentally ill etc). My standards are higher than to accept life without a place to live. That's really what it comes down to.

The most unfortunate thing is not that they are in a bad situation, but that they expect so little from their life, something thats very hard to change.

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