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-- Political Debate jan 9
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Originally posted by ** TigerLily ** hahahaha... that's what I kept thinking. Looks like he has something to hide - he's sneaky looking.

I used to think that but maybe that's just the way he is. He seemed to be too scripted though. I want to see some passion from this guy... he's too calm all the time. Paul Martin on the other hand looks very passionate about what he's saying.

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Originally posted by Tordan I used to think that but maybe that's just the way he is. He seemed to be too scripted though. I want to see some passion from this guy... he's too calm all the time. Paul Martin on the other hand looks very passionate about what he's saying.

Such a good point - leaders need to be passionate about what they believe in. I think it's one of the most effective ways to get people on your side. It takes charm and charisma too - although I agree that that can't be the ONLY reason you vote for someone. But it certainly helps.

As much as it shouldn't matter, personal appearance and how it's perceived makes a big difference. It's hard to trust someone who doesn't 'look' trustworthy...

stephen harper is so creepy. ugh, i can't stand him.

meh, i don't know who to vote for. i would not vote, but then i get yelled at, and i suppose i should, so i have to decide.

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Originally posted by nadezhda stephen harper is so creepy. ugh, i can't stand him. meh, i don't know who to vote for. i would not vote, but then i get yelled at, and i suppose i should, so i have to decide.

a) creepyness should not be a deciding factor.

b) I hate all this crap about everybody should vote. It's poppycock! You should only vote if you are informed as to the candidates, party platforms, ideologies, and issues of the day. IF you have not taken the time to seriously consider all of these things then you are making an illinformed decision based on second hand or even miss information. This is why democracy does not function correctly, too many people making decisions that they really have not thought through. If you feel illequiped to vote then please DON'T VOTE. There is an old addage "you get the government that you deserve." We've had irresponsible government for the past 20 years because most of the voters really could care less and are not responsible with their vote.

quote:

Originally posted by nadezhda stephen harper is so creepy. ugh, i can't stand him.

Jack Layton is so creepy. ugh, i can't stand him.
Really, I get an impression of a snake from this guy. [quote]

Unfortunately I could only read the transcript and analysis of the debate and I wanted Martin to give me a good reason why I should vote for him but he failed. Oh well.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I truely wanted to vote Conservative this time arround due to my thinking laid out above. After last night I'm not so sure that I can do so with a clear mind. My problem is my belief in the rule of law. Mr. Harper could have solidified my support last night by stateing simply and clearly that he would not invoke the Notwithstanding Clause. In stead he stated that there must be a balance between the courts and parliament. While I agree I disagree on how this balance is struck. Mr. Harper has indicated that he would consider use of s.33 to strike this balance, whereas I believe the way this balance is to be attained is via legislation..... if the court strikes down a law parliament should draft a new bill that will be in keeping with what the constitution allows as opposed to invoking s.33 thereby stating that they do not recognize the legitamacy of the constitution. This is dangerous ground. Our society is built on the rule of law, disregarding the constitution is tantamount to rejecting the rule of law, therefore rejecting the very value upon which our society is based. While I recognize that The Notwithstanding Clause can be a valuable tool for provincial leaders to buy time for their residents to become accustom to a new law or to maintain order while they draft legislation in fitting with the constitution I DO NOT feel it is appropriate for the federal government to do the same. The primary responsibility of the federal government is to uphold the constitution, not circumvent it. Despite my desire for a Conservative minority I cannot support someone who is not opposed to the invokation of s.33.

The problem is that the British North America Act did NOT make the Supreme Court the final arbiter of the constitution. In the Westminster system, Parliament is supreme. The Supreme Court gained power through parliamentary statutes; the source of the Supreme Court's power is NOT the constitution, but Parliament. What Parliament grants, it can take away or limit.

What Trudeau did in 1982 was to bring in a French- and U.S.-influenced system (which by the way was never approved by the Province of Quebec OR the people of Canada directly), but without the checks and balances needed to prevent cronyism. We've seen with JudgeScam that the Lieberals consistantly appointed judges who donated to the Party or overtly supported Lieberal ideological aims. Under Trudeau, constitutional law and politics have merged. Supreme Court rulings are usually based on political or ideological considerations, rather than an application of precedent or a plain reading of the law. That's not rule of law, that's rule of politics.

The proper balance, rightly stated by Harper, is to have a notwithstanding clause but to rarely use it. It's needed as a check on an unelected body, and as an escape valve in extreme situations (which have not yet come up in 23 years). Even then, there's a check on the check: if politicians use the notwithstanding clause in a foolish way, the people can vote them out.

The constitutional amendment proposed by Martin is a foolish move by a desperate man. Clearly, it was not well thought out.

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Originally posted by simms327 no kidding, whats up with that? he looks like a messed up version of chretien... one side of his mouth is always up. edit: I'm new to canada, and have a passport, citizenship and all, and have never vote before. I have not recieved my voting card? what do i do? A lady from elections canada came by my house and asked for a piece of ID, should i just keep waiting?

go to the local polling station on election day with id. They will sign u up on the spot.

The notwithstanding clause is an important tool to have in a rare time of crisis. History has shown that it has not been abused (federal parliament has never used it) and i dont think that is about to change with a harper government. If he were to use it, he would have to have a very very very sound reason for doing so or else he'd be out on his ear in the next election and he knows it. I commend him for leaving that option open though. I dont want my country being run soley by unelected, appointed judges. Thats called a dictatorship.

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf The problem is that the British North America Act did NOT make the Supreme Court the final arbiter of the constitution. In the Westminster system, Parliament is supreme. The Supreme Court gained power through parliamentary statutes; the source of the Supreme Court's power is NOT the constitution, but Parliament. What Parliament grants, it can take away or limit. The proper balance, rightly stated by Harper, is to have a notwithstanding clause but to rarely use it. It's needed as a check on an unelected body, and as an escape valve in extreme situations (which have not yet come up in 23 years). Even then, there's a check on the check: if politicians use the notwithstanding clause in a foolish way, the people can vote them out. The constitutional amendment proposed by Martin is a foolish move by a desperate man. Clearly, it was not well thought out.

The BNA made the judicial counsel in Britain the final arbiter of the constitution. This was changed with the Westminister Act of 1932 which is also part of our constitution, not a statute of Canadian Parliament. This act gave power over the constitutions and judicial systems of ALL the former British colonies back to the dominions themselves.

I stated I do not object to the existance of s.33 or even it's use by the provinces where appropriate, however, I cannot accept a prime minister using it. As I said their #1 responsibility is to uphold the constitution, that constitution gives power to the SCofC to rule as to whether or not legislation is in fact constitutional, invokation of the Notwithstanding Clause is in effect circumventing the constitution, therefore it is abandoning the #1 responsibility of the government. I cannot support someone who would even consider this (federally) let alone do it. There is a mechanism for changing the constitution, if one feels strongly enough that there is a flaw in the constitution and Canadians agree then it is via that ammending formula that change should be brought...... invoking s.33 flys in the face of the rule of law.

With regard to the proposed ammendment to the constitution eliminating section 33 I agree with you. It is an illconceived idea and born of desperation to distinguish themselves from the conservatives on this issue. Moreover, it has zero chance of success because the provinces would never ratify it..... despite Quebec's mockery of it in the 80s they have used it and would likely never give it up. With the growing disconnect between the other provinces and Ottawa I doubt they would give it up either..... unless it were a barganing chip for more jurisdictional powers.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 The notwithstanding clause is an important tool to have in a rare time of crisis. History has shown that it has not been abused (federal parliament has never used it) and i dont think that is about to change with a harper government. If he were to use it, he would have to have a very very very sound reason for doing so or else he'd be out on his ear in the next election and he knows it. I commend him for leaving that option open though. I dont want my country being run soley by unelected, appointed judges. Thats called a dictatorship.

Interesting, however, the appropriate way to respond to judges ruling legislation unconstitutional would be to either ammend the legislation or ammend the constitution, disregarding the constitution itself is not acceptable in a society ruled by law.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r What was there to be sneaky about? I never understood this arguement and have yet to hear one valid arguement regarding this. Maybe you can clue us all in?

GST cut *smirk*

Notwithstanding clause *smirk*

etc.

He also shuffled his feet back and forth continuously during his opening remarks... maybe not suspicious, but damn annoying. I consider Harper to be a weak public speaker.

It makes him look like a scheming little prick. Just as valid as calling Layton a used-car salesman.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Interesting, however, the appropriate way to respond to judges ruling legislation unconstitutional would be to either ammend the legislation or ammend the constitution, disregarding the constitution itself is not acceptable in a society ruled by law.

Perhaps some people forget the FLQ crisis of the 70s. This is the kind of emergency im referring to. It would have to be a time of genuine crisis. Not something cosmetic.

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Originally posted by Matt I consider Harper to be a weak public speaker.

I think what you're seeing is more a manifestation of the preasure he is under. He needs to satisfy his core supporters in the west while attracting new support in Ontario and the east. This is a hard task as it must be done in a way as to not frighten the red tories but must also tell the blue tories that he is still their man. I feel badly for him, he's in a tough spot. I think that should he attain government you'll notice a marked change in his behaviour.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Perhaps some people forget the FLQ crisis of the 70s. This is the kind of emergency im referring to. It would have to be a time of genuine crisis. Not something cosmetic.

The war measures act allows this in a short term emergency without use of s.33.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I think what you're seeing is more a manifestation of the preasure he is under. He needs to satisfy his core supporters in the west while attracting new support in Ontario and the east. This is a hard task as it must be done in a way as to not frighten the red tories but must also tell the blue tories that he is still their man. I feel badly for him, he's in a tough spot. I think that should he attain government you'll notice a marked change in his behaviour.

I feel bad for him too... if he loses another election he's going to lose his job

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Interesting, however, the appropriate way to respond to judges ruling legislation unconstitutional would be to either ammend the legislation or ammend the constitution, disregarding the constitution itself is not acceptable in a society ruled by law.

The constitution is not what nine unelected, Lieberal-friendly judges say it is.

The constitution is what the Parliament of Canada (including the people's representatives in the House) deems it to be.

Whenever judges, for example, create rights out of thin air they've in essence unilaterally amended the constitution without Parliament's consent. That's not the rule of law, that's politics.

quote:

The rule of law implies that government authority may only be exercised in accordance with written laws, which were adopted through an established procedure. The principle is intended to be a safeguard against arbitrary rulings in individual cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_Law

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf The constitution is not what nine unelected, Lieberal-friendly judges say it is. The constitution is what the Parliament of Canada (including the people's representatives in the House) deems it to be. Whenever judges, for example, create rights out of thin air they've in essence unilaterally amended the constitution without Parliament's consent. That's not the rule of law, that's politics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_Law

Incorrect. The constitution is three documents, BNA 1867, The Westminister Act 1932, and the Constitution Act 1982. These documents give the Supreme Court of Canada final judgement over the interpretation of said documents. THIS IS FACT AND IS WHAT OUR LEGAL SYSTEM IS BASED ON.

Additionally, Parliament cannot change the constitution, this must be done by the provinces, at least 7/10 representing a 2/3 majority of the population. Therefore, the constitution really is what the people as represented by the provincial legislatures deem it to be, not what Parliament dictates.

If you want Parliament to have the lone say in constitutional matters then you have really given up all rights to protection against poor government. This, however, could be done if 7/10 provinces representing 2/3 of the population agreed to it. You'll never see that happen but it is theoretically possible.

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Originally posted by Tordan no kiddin. someone needs to slap some sense into this man. you can't go around pouring money into all these social programs and not take care of the corporate sector. he makes it sound like a corporate tax cut is a mortal sin. dumass, it's vital for a strong economy.

Sorry, you quoted Malek's comments about Layton being desperate. In your comments; what does it have to do with him being deperate?

AND PEOPLE.

2 Things you never argue about with anyone is Religion and Politics. Keep it at a discussion level and it can be informative.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard The war measures act allows this in a short term emergency without use of s.33.

S 33 didnt exist back then nor did our current constitution

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 S 33 didnt exist back then nor did our current constitution

Indeed you are correct, however, I don't see how that factors into my point. The WMA is the appropriate vehicle for a temporary suspension of rights in an emergency, S.33 is for a longer term use. Regardless, we're getting way off point here.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard These documents give the Supreme Court of Canada final judgement over the interpretation of said documents.

Those documents do not give the Supreme Court that power.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Regardless, we're getting way off point here.

^^^^^^

and that was the whole point in martin throwing out this red herring. To get everyone off topic from the real issues. We do not have a constitutional crisis in this country. Lets get back to the real issues like health care and taxes.

What an act of desperation this was.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 ^^^^^^ and that was the whole point in martin throwing out this red herring. To get everyone off topic from the real issues. We do not have a constitutional crisis in this country. Lets get back to the real issues like health care and taxes. What an act of desperation this was.

Actually, the potential use of s.33 is an issue to me... but not the merits or existance of it which is what we had gotten into. It was an issue to me long before the writ was dropped (which, if you recall some of my past posts with regard to gay marriage, was quite clear). It is unfortunate that I cannot be assured that it will not be invoked. For many people this would not/will not matter but it does to me (maybe because I'm more concerned with the institutions, structures, and processes of government them most are). I just cannot reconsile supporting this, however, I have difficulty supporting the Liberals as well (which is why I will vote based on the local candidates).

In order to not have to use the notwithstanding clause, we need to either be able to elect our judges, elect the senate or overhaul the constitution.

UNELECTED JUDGES should not be deciding the rule of law in canada.

I just dont like Harper. hes such a creepy slime ball imo.

Hes the worst out of them all. I didnt watch much of the debate though. I wouldve like to but was busy.

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