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-- Green Party Of Canada
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Sorry guys. Politics are not a very good topic to talk about. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I had some hard facts to back mine, which were disregarded. Its not the first time. It's alright. One day, generations to come, when it's too late, people will hopefully remember what people like me said about things that were and what happened. But then again, the centuries of our abuse of this planet hasn't taught us humans anything. Humans have brains that are too dam big ... too much imagination, creativity, ideas have made lives of many humans and other species so complicated and hard. Wars have happened and will happen. People have suffered and will suffer. Every generation promises a better future, with a fine print at the bottom of the page. Anyhow ... Hopefully we'll reach a stage when we will be able to inherit something (whatever's left of nature) and preserve whatever's left of this suffering planet.

its not your fault. its just i cant trust a bunch of granola eating bike riding, un bathed hippies to run my country. which is why i voted bloc in this election, cause i dont trust people from calgary either, so that conservative mp had to go


what canada really needs is the rebirth of the rinocerous party...... now that would bring change back to parliment

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Originally posted by Magnetonium First of all, South Korea is a DEMOCRATIC country, and it has been since 1945 (at least if you compare it to North Korea). Whatever the unrest it had, it was still a democracy, so your example does not compare with Iraq or Soviet Union, both of which went through structural and economic collapse that changed them from "dictatorships" to "free market democracies". Yeah right! Look at today's Iraq/Russia's stats: unemployment rate. poverty rate. crime rate. life expectancy rate. income. etc. etc. AND THEN COMPARE IT TO THEIR PREVIOUS MARKS (Soviet Union, Saddam Hussein).

Hell, I can claim that Uganda is a democracy and it still be true. Dictatorship is dictatorship, no matter how it's disguised. (If you weren't aware, most South Korean presidents got their presidency through coup d'etats)

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I REST MY CASE. I am not saying that Saddam was a great leader, or that communism was good (I hate communism), my whole point that you stirred up was that, "in 1980s Iraqis were way better off than after Gulf War." Life in Soviet Union was much better for an average citizen than it is now after the collapse of Soviet Union. In both cases, rich people got richer, poor people got poorer - the gap increased. Both countries are not transitioning properly to achieve the true democratic status of western countries. In Iraq its the Americans' fault, in Russia its the corrupt elite's fault.

Growing pains. Rarely there is a smooth transition from one system of govt to another throughout history.

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Anyhow, I wasnt talking about Iraq or Russia, lets get back to Green Party talk, this is completely pointless. Just because you disagree with this one line I mentioned you disregard everything else I said. Which shows that you are on this thread not to support the Green Party cause, but to find an argument that will be an excuse for you to think the Green Party is bad.

On the other hand, I'm quite open about other party's policies. It's just your incredibly silly remark (IMO) discredit a lot of things that you're trying to say.

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Originally posted by EvilTree Hell, I can claim that Uganda is a democracy and it still be true. Dictatorship is dictatorship, no matter how it's disguised. (If you weren't aware, most South Korean presidents got their presidency through coup d'etats) Growing pains. Rarely there is a smooth transition from one system of govt to another throughout history. On the other hand, I'm quite open about other party's policies. It's just your incredibly silly remark (IMO) discredit a lot of things that you're trying to say.

Finally, something I can agree with. I see your point. Then you can disregard my Iraq statement, because I see what you are saying. In a way I was influenced by better standards of living under Soviet Union. I never said dictatorships were good - they all eventually collapse. I am bitter that the transition from communism in Russia to democracy didnt go as smoothly as it should've - Russia and most of eastern bloc countries were literally ruined after Soviet Union ended. Its all because communism hardliners derailed Gorbachev's Perestroyka program. I hope you understand my comparison though. Above all of this, I think there's a better government system thats needed to replace capitalism in general. In terms of politics the world may be getting better. I am more concerned about environment, because by the time we settle all our squabbles, it might be too late to save our nature.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Finally, something I can agree with. I see your point. Then you can disregard my Iraq statement, because I see what you are saying. In a way I was influenced by better standards of living under Soviet Union. I never said dictatorships were good - they all eventually collapse. I am bitter that the transition from communism in Russia to democracy didnt go as smoothly as it should've - Russia and most of eastern bloc countries were literally ruined after Soviet Union ended. Its all because communism hardliners derailed Gorbachev's Perestroyka program. I hope you understand my comparison though.

The case with Russia and Eastern Bloc was a massive shock from collapse of communism and the aftermath of having to adjust to new style of govt and economic system. (not to mention lack of capita to start something) It just don't work when the infrastructure and the people who know how to use the system aren't there. It's like giving someone a new tool and tell him to use it. Most cases, the guy don't have a clue, but there are few that adapt rapidly and know how to use the system that did get rich.

Glasnost and Perestroika programs may have worked if implemented properly and the support of the Soviet leadership was there. If not it would have made the gradual transition to democracy and capitalism a lot smoother. However, people who have the power do not want to give up power easily, such was the case of hardliner Soviets

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Above all of this, I think there's a better government system thats needed to replace capitalism in general. In terms of politics the world may be getting better. I am more concerned about environment, because by the time we settle all our squabbles, it might be too late to save our nature.

I dunno whether replacing capitalism may be possible, because I believe it is partially fueled by human desire to survive. You don't work and make money, you don't eat so you starve. Most humans have an adverse reaction to that.
When there is a total satisfaction of all needs in a society, there is eventual stagnation as people get complacent. No new innovations, no adaptations to problems. Why work when you're guaranteed to be fed? Humans are pretty lazy creatures.
Of course I'd love to see a United Federation of Planets style utopian socialism. But before that can happen, the basic lazy attitude of humanity has to be changed.

As for the environment, too many groups with their own agendas. Too many govts with their own interests and agendas that cannot come up with a comprehensive and workable solution to environment problems. Like I said before, people who have power do not want to give up power easily. (Mostly in terms of govts and corporations, but also some enviro groups)

DIESEL DIESEL DIESEL DIESEL DIESEL

I WANT A GODDAMN DIESEL HONDA OR TOYOTA OR SOMETHING

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Originally posted by EvilTree The case with Russia and Eastern Bloc was a massive shock from collapse of communism and the aftermath of having to adjust to new style of govt and economic system. (not to mention lack of capita to start something) It just don't work when the infrastructure and the people who know how to use the system aren't there. It's like giving someone a new tool and tell him to use it. Most cases, the guy don't have a clue, but there are few that adapt rapidly and know how to use the system that did get rich. Glasnost and Perestroika programs may have worked if implemented properly and the support of the Soviet leadership was there. If not it would have made the gradual transition to democracy and capitalism a lot smoother. However, people who have the power do not want to give up power easily, such was the case of hardliner Soviets I dunno whether replacing capitalism may be possible, because I believe it is partially fueled by human desire to survive. You don't work and make money, you don't eat so you starve. Most humans have an adverse reaction to that. When there is a total satisfaction of all needs in a society, there is eventual stagnation as people get complacent. No new innovations, no adaptations to problems. Why work when you're guaranteed to be fed? Humans are pretty lazy creatures. Of course I'd love to see a United Federation of Planets style utopian socialism. But before that can happen, the basic lazy attitude of humanity has to be changed. As for the environment, too many groups with their own agendas. Too many govts with their own interests and agendas that cannot come up with a comprehensive and workable solution to environment problems. Like I said before, people who have power do not want to give up power easily. (Mostly in terms of govts and corporations, but also some enviro groups)

Yes, thanks for brainstorming my motherland, I devote half of my learning/reading time to Russia, so spare yourself the typing time. I have to add that the people who got rich after the collapse were the small businessmen who bought previously government-owned companies for cheap, only to make fortunes later on. The government specifically instructed them not to interfere in politics, and those who listened are to the day the most successfull ones.

I am intrigued by your capitalism description. Very interesting, though I do not like such a system. I prefer more of 'utopian socialism' society ... but actually I always admired the way native native tribes of South America centuries ago (before arrival of Spanish) looked at nature, how they cared for it and their beliefs in soul and spirit. They lived in small communities, self dependent and nature-preserving. They understood well that nature was very important to their life, and they treated it like their own bodies - with care. Its a long topic, I'd rather not waste my time getting into further detail.

My idea of a society is that one which lives in nature, not in skyscrapers or buildings OR cities in general, but small communities that are self-sustainable and only using the resources that they need, with care. I am all for elimination of existence of world countries, to eliminate the useless military spending - I prefer one nation of humans instead with a huge parliament. I am for elimination of weapons of mass destruction from the face of the planet. I am for equal rights to all humans, for elimination of all pollutants, chemicals, war machines ... etc. I would like if humans stopped hating each other by abolishing religion. Thats some of my ideas of my perfect society ...

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