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-- The "I refuse to give up vinyl !!!" thread
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Originally posted by keithos27 Serato Scratch Live

mmm...sooo want to try one of those.

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Originally posted by Ryan0751 CDJ's ARE more accurate than Tehcnics 1200's. Sorry, but it's true. Anyone who spins both regulary knows this. Your argument that CDJ's are digital and TT's are analog is exactly the reason why CDJ's are more accurate. The pitch doesn't drift in digital land, ever. And if you've played with CDJ-1000's in 6%/.02 pitch accuracy mode, you'll realize that to move the pitch slider only .02%, you have to move it the smallest fraction of a hair. It is even less granular than a 1200's slider. And you're also not taking into account all of the other issues with TT's... warped records, bad pressings, fluctuations in power... all of those result in a pitch accuracy which is much worse than the magic "wow and flutter" number that everyone talks about. Spinning vinyl and getting those tight mixes is much more difficult with vinyl.

hah. i've spun on both. as long as your deck is in good condition, your pitch will not drift. bad pressings, warped records and fluctuations in power are a whole other deal. the point is, digital works in increments, analog doesn't.

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Originally posted by Inertia seriously, this CDJ being more accurate than turntables notion has to be one of the most ridiculous things ever. people, think about it. TURNTABLES ARE ANALOG. CDJs are digital. in other words, CDJs have what you cal pitch increments. the best players in the world are still stuck at +/-0.02% this means, you can only variate your pitch by that much. so say to have a perfectly matched track, you need to have it at +0.025%. you can do nothing. however, a turnable is analog, it will variate by as much as you move the slider. in other words, a turntable in perfect condition is as accurate as YOU are with the slider. you can have it at +0.01%, +0.001% or even +0.000549863987608360347%. in conclusion, you can get a more accurate match on turntables, period. that some people do find it easier to spin on CDJs? true. that correcting is easier? true. but they are in no way more accurate.

true

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Originally posted by Inertia hah. i've spun on both. as long as your deck is in good condition, your pitch will not drift. bad pressings, warped records and fluctuations in power are a whole other deal. the point is, digital works in increments, analog doesn't.

you're wrong and what you said is pointless. you don't need such increments as 0.000%, cause you won't hear a fucking difference. now here's simple math. 140 bpm. 1% = 1,4 beat drift per minute, 0,1% = 0,14 bpm, 0,01% = 0,014%, 0,001% = 0,0014%. now would you hear a trainwreck the size of 0,014% beat missmatch. naaaaaahhhh)))

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Originally posted by blacknoizybox you're wrong and what you said is pointless. you don't need such increments as 0.000%, cause you won't hear a fucking difference. now here's simple math. 140 bpm. 1% = 1,4 beat drift per minute, 0,1% = 0,14 bpm, 0,01% = 0,014%, 0,001% = 0,0014%. now would you hear a trainwreck the size of 0,014% beat missmatch. naaaaaahhhh)))

No he is right.

well as a user of both i have to say the CDJs are more accurate. if we want to be posh about things then no, they arnt really more accurate.

TTs dont hold their pitch perfectly - even technics. it aint always the tt it can be the vinyls fault - eg a warped one.

with CDs once you have the beats matched they STAY matched.
i very rarely make a correction even in a club during a mix. with turntables i rarely dont make a correction

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Originally posted by blacknoizybox you're wrong and what you said is pointless. you don't need such increments as 0.000%, cause you won't hear a fucking difference. now here's simple math. 140 bpm. 1% = 1,4 beat drift per minute, 0,1% = 0,14 bpm, 0,01% = 0,014%, 0,001% = 0,0014%. now would you hear a trainwreck the size of 0,014% beat missmatch. naaaaaahhhh)))

and, as it was earlier said, the CDJs are digital, meaning that if the track tempo is perfectly recorded, than the CDJ will play the track without tempo changes AT ALL...
(im talking about decent Pioneer CDJs, dunno about CLitronic, Grimini, Bearringear or whatever)

And as if anyone is actually GOOD ENOUGH to get that close, sorry, they aren't. It's all about being able to correct a mix BEFORE it goes out of time, not "can I get it to within .000001%".

And the notion that an analog slider has "limitless" precision is theoretical, and never actually occurs in practice. If you get two tracks to within .02% on CDJ's, they will not drift enough during a 5 minute mix for you to care.

Look at Tiesto. Now that he spins only CD's and declares Vinyl dead, he's been trainwrecking a whole lot less

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Originally posted by blacknoizybox you're wrong and what you said is pointless. you don't need such increments as 0.000%, cause you won't hear a fucking difference. now here's simple math. 140 bpm. 1% = 1,4 beat drift per minute, 0,1% = 0,14 bpm, 0,01% = 0,014%, 0,001% = 0,0014%. now would you hear a trainwreck the size of 0,014% beat missmatch. naaaaaahhhh)))

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Originally posted by Ryan0751 And as if anyone is actually GOOD ENOUGH to get that close, sorry, they aren't. It's all about being able to correct a mix BEFORE it goes out of time. And the notion that an analog slider has "limitless" precision is theoretical, and never actually occurs in practice. If you get two tracks to within .02% on CDJ's, they will not drift enough during a 5 minute mix for you to care. Look at Tiesto. Now that he spins only CD's and declares Vinyl dead, he's been trainwrecking a whole lot less :lol:

People dont have the skill to correct and control the pitch thats why the find it easy to spin on cds. A very technical techno dj uses technics with fs or serato & vinyl.
Why ? Because they play with 3 decks and are constantly mashing up things.
Cd decks just don't cut it for them.

With cd decks based on a 136 BPM goal pitch and worst case scenarios (desired pitch exactly halfway between 2 pitch incriments):

a 0.1% resolution as is on most cheap CD players will drift by .03626 Beats/Second, or a bit more than a 32nd note every second.

a .05% pitch resolution like on the sl-dz1200, cdj800, and wider ranges of other cdj1000 will drift by aproximately half that, .01813 beats/second, or a 32nd about every 2 seconds.

a .02$ pitch resolution as is on the narrow pitch ranges of the cdj200 and cdj1000mk2 and maybe a couple others will cause a 32nd note drift about every 5 seconds, or .007252 beats/second.

If you are constantly correcting pitch on TT's, why not do that same on CDJ's?

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Originally posted by harriz People dont have the skill to correct and control the pitch thats why the find it easy to spin on cds. A very technical techno dj uses technics with fs or serato & vinyl. Why ? Because they play with 3 decks and are constantly mashing up things. Cd decks just don't cut it for them. With cd decks based on a 136 BPM goal pitch and worst case scenarios (desired pitch exactly halfway between 2 pitch incriments): a 0.1% resolution as is on most cheap CD players will drift by .03626 Beats/Second, or a bit more than a 32nd note every second. a .05% pitch resolution like on the sl-dz1200, cdj800, and wider ranges of other cdj1000 will drift by aproximately half that, .01813 beats/second, or a 32nd about every 2 seconds. a .02$ pitch resolution as is on the narrow pitch ranges of the cdj200 and cdj1000mk2 and maybe a couple others will cause a 32nd note drift about every 5 seconds, or .007252 beats/second.

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Originally posted by Ryan0751 If you are constantly correcting pitch on TT's, why not do that same on CDJ's?

on tt you correct and adjust, correct and adjust.
on cdjs you correct if you are close to the pitch you cant adjust any further.

You can't get closer than .02% on TT's either. Look at the pitch slider of the CDJ-1000, it's the same length as a 1200. At 6% pitch range, it's covering an even LESS amount of range then the 1200's 8% slider. If you watch the pitch display, you have to move the pitch slider such a small tiny amount to get a .02% change, sometimes you can barely do it.

You're going to tell me that on a 1200 you can do better than that?

Crack is whack.

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Originally posted by harriz on tt you correct and adjust, correct and adjust. on cdjs you correct if you are close to the pitch you cant adjust any further.

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Originally posted by Ryan0751 You can't get closer than .02% on TT's either..

Yes. I. can.

CDJ1000s, and Technics are both EASY AS HELL to mix on.

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Originally posted by Zild CDJ1000s, and Technics are both EASY AS HELL to mix on.

simple as that really

+1

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Originally posted by est Yeah, you can rip vinyl to digital easily. However, if a DJ wanted to play a tune on vinyl (for whatever reason), but it was only released on digital, there's no way that could be done .

True, you can do that, but what about people who don't own TTs?? If your only a CDJ, you want to get your tunes. Some sites do this, and sell digital stuff, others just get it straight from the labels. But it shouldn't be only released on either, they should be released on both, like it is now. I'de say they should start releasing more on digital and sooner then on vinyl. But it's hard for me to believe that in 10 or 15 years there will still be DJs playing with vinyl records, other than those play older records. If there's any indication of what a good number of DJs are starting to do now...digital seems to be the future, whether on CDJs or through computers. Not dissing vinyl, vinyl's great, but I seriously don't see it as a medium that's going to last another 10 or 15 years..esp with trance and progressive DJs.

Your seeing more use final scartch or serato live, or your seeing some mix with ableton, and those that just use CDJs, or others that use a combination of these (like PvD).

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Originally posted by Spirit5 True, you can do that, but what about people who don't own TTs?? If your only a CDJ, you want to get your tunes. Some sites do this, and sell digital stuff, others just get it straight from the labels. But it shouldn't be only released on either, they should be released on both, like it is now. I'de say they should start releasing more on digital and sooner then on vinyl. But it's hard for me to believe that in 10 or 15 years there will still be DJs playing with vinyl records, other than those play older records. If there's any indication of what a good number of DJs are starting to do now...digital seems to be the future, whether on CDJs or through computers. Not dissing vinyl, vinyl's great, but I seriously don't see it as a medium that's going to last another 10 or 15 years..esp with trance and progressive DJs.

Trance and progressive djs are often sponsored by pioneer to promote their gear.
Techno djs are usually not that popular to sign sponsorship deals
That why they stick to vinyl and use cd decks for promos.

But you are right vinyl is becoming a thing of the past weather we like it or not.
I consider my final scratch 2 with traktor 3 a godscent piece of gear.
I am budget minded but I also can do a lot more with the music.

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Originally posted by harriz Trance and progressive djs are often sponsored by pioneer to promote their gear. Techno djs are usually not that popular to sign sponsorship deals That why they stick to vinyl and use cd decks for promos. But you are right vinyl is becoming a thing of the past weather we like it or not. I consider my final scratch 2 with traktor 3 a godscent piece of gear. I am budget minded but I also can do a lot more with the music.

Yeah people are going to have to give it up eventually..I mean we are in a digital generation, and with the rise of the digital download shops, it's easier and faster to get the tunes you like. One thing I was thinking about, was that there are many tunes I got on MP3 for preview purposes that wind up sucking. Now if I did that on vinyl (took a chance on a tune I heard a preview from) I'de be wasting money. There's quite a few tracks I bought on vinyl when I had TTs that I winded up not liking as much when I heard the full tune. I would have wanted to download on these shops anyways before I bought the vinyl record, and that costs extra $$.

With MP3s, I'm not wasting as much, seeing at Beatport files are 1.49 for older stuff, or 1.99 for new stuff, and 2.49 for promos. That is heck of a lot better than they spending 9.99 + 5.00 shipping that I had to spend on a record at DanceRecords.com, and they were one of the cheaper ones I could find! Esp because they were located in the US. I don't see a huge difference in sound quality either. The pops and clicks in vinyl records got on my nerves, some were worse then others. I don't have to worry about any of that with MP3s or Wavs.

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Originally posted by Ryan0751 You can't get closer than .02% on TT's either. Look at the pitch slider of the CDJ-1000, it's the same length as a 1200. At 6% pitch range, it's covering an even LESS amount of range then the 1200's 8% slider. If you watch the pitch display, you have to move the pitch slider such a small tiny amount to get a .02% change, sometimes you can barely do it. You're going to tell me that on a 1200 you can do better than that?

Yes, I can. I think it's a pretty basic DJ skill, especially considering that the Technics pitch fader is very stiff compaired to the CDJ's, which aids hairlength movements. And also, don't forget that the pitch fader on the CDJ is a digital device. No matter how small of a movement you put on it, it won't do anything until you move it far enough for it to signal the track to go 0.02% faster or slower.

Since I got my second CDJ-1000 a few months ago, I've been spinning mostly CDs (vinyl is too expensive at this point in my life). The limitations of the 0.02% pitch increments are definately obvious to me. Even after very careful beatmatching, I am finding myself having to be a lot more wary of my tracks slowly drifting because of it. I've literally had cases where one track was at, say, 0.06% and was a bit too fast, so I moved it down to 0.04% and it became a bit too slow. I do a lot of very long transitions.

But I still love my CDJ's to death. I can do things with them that simply aren't possible on vinyl. I can carry more music and can get it for a LOT cheaper.

I find it hard to believe people are doing long transitions on technics without making any corrections. How long do you spend beatmatching? I can see if you spend minutes, but most working DJs I know just throw it in and beatmatch as they're mixing.

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Originally posted by Spirit5 One thing I was thinking about, was that there are many tunes I got on MP3 for preview purposes that wind up sucking. Now if I did that on vinyl (took a chance on a tune I heard a preview from) I'de be wasting money.

Unlike mp3s, you can sell your vinyl. About half of the tunes I've got on vinyl came from raking through 2nd hand shops and finding hidden gems for 50p. I found a limited edition (500 pressings) of flutlicht icarus for �1 last week. Just one reason why vinyl is so much more fun than downloading (well, if you're a trainspotter like me hehe).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against digital mixing - just saying that each has its place.

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Originally posted by est Unlike mp3s, you can sell your vinyl. About half of the tunes I've got on vinyl came from raking through 2nd hand shops and finding hidden gems for 50p. I found a limited edition (500 pressings) of flutlicht icarus for �1 last week. Just one reason why vinyl is so much more fun than downloading (well, if you're a trainspotter like me hehe). Don't get me wrong, I'm not against digital mixing - just saying that each has its place.

Im constantly buying vinyl @ 50p-�1 from a local record shop and have picked up quite a few gems. The rest is a pile of junk (to me anyways).

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Originally posted by est Unlike mp3s, you can sell your vinyl. About half of the tunes I've got on vinyl came from raking through 2nd hand shops and finding hidden gems for 50p. I found a limited edition (500 pressings) of flutlicht icarus for �1 last week. Just one reason why vinyl is so much more fun than downloading (well, if you're a trainspotter like me hehe). Don't get me wrong, I'm not against digital mixing - just saying that each has its place.

True, but I wouldn't want to sell my vinyl (too many keepers). But yeah i'll prolly sell the stuff that sucks. There are shops around where I live, but NONE of them sell good trance or progressive, it's all rap, club-pop music, house, and of course techno, esp detroit techno, which I'm not a huge fan of. True it is pretty fun finding a record you like, but I got tired of waiting forever for stuff to be available at DanceRecords, because that was the cheapest record store that sold the stuff I liked, and I trusted the place. I would always fear though, that I would get a warped or damaged record in the mail.
It didn't happen much, but I never have to worry about any of that stuff.

I can get the tunes when I want, and if I don't like the tune, it's not as much of a waste of $$ as it would be spending all that money with records, that you wouldn't exactly throw away or delete from your hard drive if you hated it. This is just the way I see it with me personally, but I still feel that digital is the way of the future, and all those who are beginning DJs in the 21st century should go with CDJs, and i've seen more and more beginners starting with CDJ 200s (I went all the way for the 1000 MK2s because I knew I never would have to upgrade with them and I had the money for it saved up, and a little money from selling my TTs). Besides you wont waste all the money I did buying records, but I guess at the time when I got TTs (in 2003) there weren't as many digital download shops as there are now.

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Originally posted by est Unlike mp3s, you can sell your vinyl. About half of the tunes I've got on vinyl came from raking through 2nd hand shops and finding hidden gems for 50p. I found a limited edition (500 pressings) of flutlicht icarus for �1 last week. Just one reason why vinyl is so much more fun than downloading (well, if you're a trainspotter like me hehe).

you should come to the oxfam music shop in southampton, over the past year or so ive managed to pick up...

gouryella - gouryella
arolla - dreaming
brainbug - nightmare
sasha - expander ep
bt - mercury and solace
da hool - eichelruck
transa - enervate
cass & slide - perception
katana - silence (99 release)
moonman - dont be afraid
energy 52 - cafe del mar
kadoc - the night train
golden girls - kinetic
blag - kids go free
and more i cant remember right now

some pristine copies to, spent about 50 quid in total i reckon

i love record shopping

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Originally posted by djdk you should come to the oxfam music shop in southampton, over the past year or so ive managed to pick up... gouryella - gouryella arolla - dreaming brainbug - nightmare sasha - expander ep bt - mercury and solace da hool - eichelruck transa - enervate cass & slide - perception katana - silence (99 release) moonman - dont be afraid energy 52 - cafe del mar kadoc - the night train golden girls - kinetic blag - kids go free and more i cant remember right now some pristine copies to, spent about 50 quid in total i reckon i love record shopping

Awesome, see you guys have great record shops. Where I live (in Detroit, MI area) they don't sell these kinds of records, so your left to get them online, where u take chances.

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