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quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto Wrong, you're translating an idea and a symbol of one audience to an audience that is raping and abusing that culture.

How exactly, does this process of cultural abuse happens? Could you give me some examples?

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Originally posted by Lepanto Yeah, i can really see how they want to be intergrated, by ONLY living in their own communities and pretty much refusing to learn English. I worked in many places where we had the same mexican or puerto rican customers who my bosses said came in for years and never know a word. Not to mention i live in NYC and went to school with many illegals who NEVER went to class much less learned the language. They could give two shits about it.

Now this is something I can't talk about : although I find it high unlikely that no one of them wanted to integrate, such attitude will, eventually, lead to balcanisation. I do think it's strange though, given the fact that all statistics I've seen show a small percentage of non-bilingual Spanish speakers in the US, and given the fact that the immigrants' children tend to use English a lot more than their parents.

Would you have numbers that could illustrate the scenario you're describing?

Good posts Lira. I took a class on linguistics once and am still really interested in the subject. So your posts regarding language are always insightful and fun to read. Oh, and nice to have you back Lira . Our unmoderated PDD has kinda gone to shit recently, and you just witnessed an example of that .

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Good posts Lira. I took a class on linguistics once and am still really interested in the subject. So your posts regarding language are always insightful and fun to read. Oh, and nice to have you back Lira . Our unmoderated PDD has kinda gone to shit recently, and you just witnessed an example of that .

I'm glad you enjoy my posts about linguistics - I'm far from being an expert but, if there's anything I can help you with, do let me know

As for the unmoderated PDD, I wonder whether that wouldn't be the best idea: In a free environment, such as this, either we learn to use our freedom or we question the lack of authority. Both scenarios would turn out to be benefical for the community, I reckon.

Given a context in which we're free to say almost anything (such as this), where we're controlled by nothing but the community, and where we're gathered in order to debate (which certainly isn't easy), our understanding towards real life - where authority is present - will certainly change.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira How exactly, does this process of cultural abuse happens? Could you give me some examples? Now this is something I can't talk about : although I find it high unlikely that no one of them wanted to integrate, such attitude will, eventually, lead to balcanisation. I do think it's strange though, given the fact that all statistics I've seen show a small percentage of non-bilingual Spanish speakers in the US, and given the fact that the immigrants' children tend to use English a lot more than their parents. Would you have numbers that could illustrate the scenario you're describing?

I used to argue that illegals still pay taxes because they purchase goods and stuff, but still they take jobs that they are paid under the table and ALOT of people would want those jobs. Biggest example? Construction, high pay, moderate physical work, normal hours, etc.

This isn't something about studies or statistics, most of which are bullshit anyway. How could you possibly study and have a common result anyway? Immpossible.

People, however, who come into contact with illegals on regular basis know this. A friend of mine's father owns a construction company with mostly Mexican workers, ALL grocery stores in NYC have mexicans and puerto ricans working 12 hour shifts unloading trucks, etc.

Bilingual? The fact that they could come into a store and buy something doesn't mean they could speak English.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira As for the unmoderated PDD, I wonder whether that wouldn't be the best idea: In a free environment, such as this, either we learn to use our freedom or we question the lack of authority. Both scenarios would turn out to be benefical for the community, I reckon.

yeah, but the last few months the freedom hasnt so much engendered a wide selection of topics & viewpoints so much as it has created a bunch of moronic name-callers, and its fvcking tiring. if i see one more cretin yell \"liberal\" (as if thats any kind of argument ) i might just kill someone.

but, back on topic: i find it interesting that people blame illegals for taking the jobs rather than the businesses that illegally hire & pay substandard wages to the immigrants.

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto I used to argue that illegals still pay taxes because they purchase goods and stuff, but still they take jobs that they are paid under the table and ALOT of people would want those jobs. Biggest example? Construction, high pay, moderate physical work, normal hours, etc.

I don't understand - why do immigrants get these jobs if the region can already supply enough workers? This would be an economical problem rather than a cultural one though.

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Originally posted by Lepanto This isn't something about studies or statistics, most of which are bullshit anyway. How could you possibly study and have a common result anyway? Immpossible.

Well, you could analyse unemployment levels, education levels and such.

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Originally posted by Lepanto People, however, who come into contact with illegals on regular basis know this. A friend of mine's father owns a construction company with mostly Mexican workers, ALL grocery stores in NYC have mexicans and puerto ricans working 12 hour shifts unloading trucks, etc.

Blimey, that's almost human exploitation! I can understand that though, we have some similar situations here. However, why is working hard exactly a problem if they're willing to work this hard?

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Originally posted by Lepanto Bilingual? The fact that they could come into a store and buy something doesn't mean they could speak English.

hmm... I don't believe the definition of English proficiency is that basic - those who are considered "bilingual" probably are able to communicate better than that, aren't they?

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Apparently honoring the confederate flag is ok because it's a tribute to the heritage and culture of some Americans' forebears. But that's the only culture and heritage to which Americans are allowed to pay such tribute. The one that seceded from the United States and created its own country. Those whose forebears didn't secede from the US to form their own country but rather came to America to become Americans should not be allowed to honor their culture in any way shape or form. That would be un-American.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2006...627345094026867

Well I haven't posted in a very long time and decided to since this topic really gets under my skin as an immigrant myself.

These individuals who are here illegally seeking a better life and their supporters have made some critical mistakes in their protests. The waving of the flags of Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala to name a few places really irked many Americans who were watching myself included. The message was clearly received when more American flags were seen in latter protests.

The National Anthem scenario is indicative of the issue at hand. If one wants to be an American then they must take the steps to do so and that does not include changing of the National Anthem's language to suit the needs of another language as some of these Spanish artists and some British bloke decided to undertake for their agenda, whatever the noble intentions were.

Which brings me to my main point "respect for the nation in which one lives" If I am in Holland, I would want to speak Dutch, France - French, Brazil - Portuguese. No one in the U.S. is going to be persecuted for speaking Spanish but it would trouble me if they are middle aged and do not make an attempt to learn English, do they truly care to integrate is the question thus raised. Whether we realize it or not people who live in a nation have a deep rooted interest in seeing their language preserved, and that applies to foreigners who immigrate to it. One need look no further than Quebec to see the significance of language and society.

Many of these illegal immagrants are hard working and I empathize with their situation and wish them the best of luck in acheiving American citizenship, This does not preclude them or their supporters from understanding that this is a nation of immigrants who have always taken the steps to integrate and assimilate into the wider American society for the most part. whether they were Irish, Jewish, German, Italian.

Waiving flags of other nations at protests for rights as an American, not speaking the language of the majority, having supporters in the Spanish community changing the National Anthem for convenience and yet claiming one wants to be an American seems highly at odds when taken into totality. I wish them good luck on May 1st

quote:

Originally posted by DaveSZ http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2006...627345094026867

Cmon Dave you know better than that, this person had a point up until this statement

"Those whose forebears didn't secede from the US to form their own country but rather came to America to become Americans should not be allowed to honor their culture in any way shape or form. That would be un-American."

I am from Guyana in South America, but it is more Caribbean than South American and every September I see many people from the Caribbean honoring their heritage in this nation, the Irish on St. Patricks day, the Puerto Ricans, the Dominicans, The Norwegians, The Germans, so that statement was way too quick to try and make a point yet not acknowledge the reality of what really happens in this nation.

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Well I haven't posted in a very long time and decided to since this topic really gets under my skin as an immigrant myself. These individuals who are here illegally seeking a better life and their supporters have made some critical mistakes in their protests. The waving of the flags of Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala to name a few places really irked many Americans who were watching myself included. The message was clearly received when more American flags were seen in latter protests. The National Anthem scenario is indicative of the issue at hand. If one wants to be an American then they must take the steps to do so and that does not include changing of the National Anthem's language to suit the needs of another language as some of these Spanish artists and some British bloke decided to undertake for their agenda, whatever the noble intentions were. Which brings me to my main point "respect for the nation in which one lives" If I am in Holland, I would want to speak Dutch, France - French, Brazil - Portuguese. No one in the U.S. is going to be persecuted for speaking Spanish but it would trouble me if they are middle aged and do not make an attempt to learn English, do they truly care to integrate is the question thus raised. Whether we realize it or not people who live in a nation have a deep rooted interest in seeing their language preserved, and that applies to foreigners who immigrate to it. One need look no further than Quebec to see the significance of language and society. Many of these illegal immagrants are hard working and I empathize with their situation and wish them the best of luck in acheiving American citizenship, This does not preclude them or their supporters from understanding that this is a nation of immigrants who have always taken the steps to integrate and assimilate into the wider American society for the most part. whether they were Irish, Jewish, German, Italian. Waiving flags of other nations at protests for rights as an American, not speaking the language of the majority, having supporters in the Spanish community changing the National Anthem for convenience and yet claiming one wants to be an American seems highly at odds when taken into totality. I wish them good luck on May 1st

Nicely put and +100% with yea.
(I was going to post something simular but you've seen to have done the work for me; stop reading my mind!)

Those illegals protesting have no rights (other than their basic human ones) until citizenship is acheived period.
It's like building the house and then asking to get paid after it was built; who asked them to build it in the first place? Great job and all but they should have asked themselves why in the first place...

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Those illegals protesting have no rights (other than their basic human ones) until citizenship is acheived period. It's like building the house and then asking to get paid after it was built; who asked them to build it in the first place? Great job and all but they should have asked themselves why in the first place...

It's simple economics, a thing called demand. There's high demand for jobs in the states. The majority of Americans would never do the Jobs out there that some Illegals do (picking oranges, etc.). The demand is high, and some Americans are lazy, therefore they fill the demand. True, they do get paid under the table and are more economically efficient for employers to hire, but that also subjects them to more exploitation and they can be abused more freely. It's not like they are getting a free ride in the US. They work inhumane hours a get paid very little, doing the jobs a lot of Americans wouldn't do, and a lot of people don't appreciate that. They don't just do jobs, they fill demand for jobs, and most of it goes unappreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Cmon Dave you know better than that, this person had a point up until this statement "Those whose forebears didn't secede from the US to form their own country but rather came to America to become Americans should not be allowed to honor their culture in any way shape or form. That would be un-American." I am from Guyana in South America, but it is more Caribbean than South American and every September I see many people from the Caribbean honoring their heritage in this nation, the Irish on St. Patricks day, the Puerto Ricans, the Dominicans, The Norwegians, The Germans, so that statement was way too quick to try and make a point yet not acknowledge the reality of what really happens in this nation.

That blog post was biting sarcasm on the author's part. I liked it, so I reposted it.


And yeah Lepanto's on the ol' Klan ignore list. Maybe he and 2hardcore4u should get together and shoot the shit some time.

And also, to those assholes who say Hispanic people need to "go home," I am Hispanic and my family has been in Texas since it was Spain in the 1700s.

I am home thank you very much.

As for the Spanish language anthem, I think it's a rather poor idea from the standpoint of trying to get sympathy for the cause of opposition to the House bill.

At the same time I don't expect there to be any meaningful legislation out of the Congress before the mid-term elections.

I believe It would be a logistics and financial nightmare to try and deport 12 million people, so I say pass some kind of "earned citizenship" bill for those people, and then create some kind of comprehensive, responsible approach for others who want to come work here that focuses on border security and an earned citizenship guest worker program. That's my take on this issue.

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Well I haven't posted in a very long time and decided to since this topic really gets under my skin as an immigrant myself. These individuals who are here illegally seeking a better life and their supporters have made some critical mistakes in their protests. The waving of the flags of Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala to name a few places really irked many Americans who were watching myself included. The message was clearly received when more American flags were seen in latter protests. The National Anthem scenario is indicative of the issue at hand. If one wants to be an American then they must take the steps to do so and that does not include changing of the National Anthem's language to suit the needs of another language as some of these Spanish artists and some British bloke decided to undertake for their agenda, whatever the noble intentions were. Which brings me to my main point "respect for the nation in which one lives" If I am in Holland, I would want to speak Dutch, France - French, Brazil - Portuguese. No one in the U.S. is going to be persecuted for speaking Spanish but it would trouble me if they are middle aged and do not make an attempt to learn English, do they truly care to integrate is the question thus raised. Whether we realize it or not people who live in a nation have a deep rooted interest in seeing their language preserved, and that applies to foreigners who immigrate to it. One need look no further than Quebec to see the significance of language and society. Many of these illegal immagrants are hard working and I empathize with their situation and wish them the best of luck in acheiving American citizenship, This does not preclude them or their supporters from understanding that this is a nation of immigrants who have always taken the steps to integrate and assimilate into the wider American society for the most part. whether they were Irish, Jewish, German, Italian. Waiving flags of other nations at protests for rights as an American, not speaking the language of the majority, having supporters in the Spanish community changing the National Anthem for convenience and yet claiming one wants to be an American seems highly at odds when taken into totality. I wish them good luck on May 1st

I wouldn't have a problem with learning English as a requirement for "earned citizenship."

I think that's very reasonable.

The point I was trying to make in posting that digby blog post was exactly the one you have made.

There are those who wave the Confederate flag and call it "heritage."

There are those who wave the Irish flag on St. Patrick's Day and call it "heritage."

The Mexicans, Central, and South Americans who wave their flags do so for the same reason. "Heritage."

see, this is why im not a fan of nationalism by and large. inherent to the concept of nationality is that distinction between "us" and "them". i really do see it as a counter-productive mindset more often than not.

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Originally posted by OurManFlint It's simple economics, a thing called demand. There's high demand for jobs in the states. The majority of Americans would never do the Jobs out there that some Illegals do (picking oranges, etc.). The demand is high, and some Americans are lazy, therefore they fill the demand. True, they do get paid under the table and are more economically efficient for employers to hire, but that also subjects them to more exploitation and they can be abused more freely. It's not like they are getting a free ride in the US. They work inhumane hours a get paid very little, doing the jobs a lot of Americans wouldn't do, and a lot of people don't appreciate that. They don't just do jobs, they fill demand for jobs, and most of it goes unappreciated.

I'm not doubting any of that at all.
It's no different here in Canada where a lot of Eastern Canadians have flocked to the Athabaska Tar Sands projects in Alberta for work.
Difference is, here it's legal.
The States problem is they obviously need a revamped, streamlined immigration system that makes it easy for those looking for work and supplying the work, while keeping the books accurate for those that need it.
I'm not against open borders, but I am against opening the flood gates with no accountability...

quote:

Originally posted by DaveSZ I wouldn't have a problem with learning English as a requirement for "earned citizenship." I think that's very reasonable. The point I was trying to make in posting that digby blog post was exactly the one you have made. There are those who wave the Confederate flag and call it "heritage." There are those who wave the Irish flag on St. Patrick's Day and call it "heritage." The Mexicans, Central, and South Americans who wave their flags do so for the same reason. "Heritage."

I think where the divergence on the flag issue occurs is that these flags of other nations were being waved in protest at Congress and for rights as an American on the part of the protesters. No one I believe has an issue if Mexicans were waving their flag at a parade acknowleding their heritage and contribution to this nation as many other American citizens do who immigrated here. It is the protest aspect of those flags, yet wanting to claim rights as a U.S. Citizen that seems out of step.

The realistic outcome of this issue lies somewhere in between, no all these individuals can never be deported and full citizenship is a long way off, however tangible efforts must be made on the part of those who are here illegally or whatever term one wants to apply to demonstrate that they have an interest in assimilating into American society on their own accord on the path to being a citizen.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I'm not doubting any of that at all. It's no different here in Canada where a lot of Eastern Canadians have flocked to the Athabaska Tar Sands projects in Alberta for work. Difference is, here it's legal. The States problem is they obviously need a revamped, streamlined immigration system that makes it easy for those looking for work and supplying the work, while keeping the books accurate for those that need it. I'm not against open borders, but I am against opening the flood gates with no accountability...

What I think would be good for everybody would be to have a guest worker program that allows workers to come over and get paid the legal wages. They won't gain legal status, and they won't be exploited, and becuase they would be getting paid so well they could support themselvs quicker. Over time, everybody would benifit.

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Originally posted by OurManFlint What I think would be good for everybody would be to have a guest worker program that allows workers to come over and get paid the legal wages. They won't gain legal status, and they won't be exploited, and becuase they would be getting paid so well they could support themselvs quicker. Over time, everybody would benifit.

You could say the aliens (to strong a word?) are putting the cart before the horse in their arguements; regardless of their arguement for

It's nice to have the bodies to fill the positions that are obviously needed, so why not have them all fill out a temporary federal work registry with the opportunity for full citizenship? It's a win/win with no worry about any recourse.
(I appolgize right now if this is what Bush signed the other day, but I haven't really read it yet).

The Bush Administration has the Spanish Language National Anthem up on the State Department website:

quote:

http://usinfo.state.gov/esp/home/to...em_spanish.html Esta p�gina est� en: P�gina principal > Temas Himno nacional - La Bandera de Estrellas Esta p�gina est� en: P�gina principal > Temas Himno nacional - La Bandera de Estrellas Amanece: �no veis, a la luz de la aurora, Lo que tanto aclamamos la noche al caer? Sus estrellas, sus barras flotaban ayer En el fiero combate en se�al de victoria, Fulgor de cohetes, de bombas estruendo, Por la noche dec�an: "!Se va defendiendo!" Coro: !Oh, decid! �Despliega a�n su hermosura estrellada, Sobre tierra de libres, la bandera sagrada? En la costa lejana que apenas blanquea, Donde yace nublada la hueste feroz Sobre aquel precipicio que el�vase atroz �Oh, decidme! �Qu� es eso que en la brisa ondea? Se oculta y flamea, en el alba luciendo, Reflejada en la mar, donde va resplandeciendo Coro: !A�n all� despleg� su hermosura estrellada, Sobre tierra de libres, la bandera sagrada! �Oh as� sea siempre, en lealtad defendamos Nuestra tierra natal contra el torpe invasor! A Dios quien nos dio paz, libertad y honor, Nos mantuvo naci�n, con fervor bendigamos. Nuestra causa es el bien, y por eso triunfamos. Siempre fue nuestro lema "�En Dios confiamos!" Coro: !Y desplegar� su hermosura estrellada, Sobre tierra de libres, la bandera sagrada! (Versi�n en espa�ol de Francis Haffkine Snow. Copyright 1919)

Fact:

US Gov Commissioned Spanish language Star Spangled BAnner in 1919:


http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/02/spanish-anthem

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