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-- Trance: The Way It's Supposed To Be
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Originally posted by Psy-T what observation leads you to believe art is not a material thing? you can see, feel, smell, and taste (to an extent ) a painting... you can hear, see (representations of), and feel music...

Art is not the material thing in itself, but rather how you interpret it. Without that interpretation, a painting is no different than any piece of fabric.

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Originally posted by Aquarian Which are essentially just another way of saying what I said. It's a state of mind that differs from the usual beta state (the normal state)

but not just any none-beta state, one of a particular selection.

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Originally posted by Aquarian They are not equally trance inducing to you. Other people can be entranced by modern trance, and even moreso than by the music you find entrancing. Thus, like I said, it's a subjective definition. You can't say something isn't trance because you don't find it entrancing. That's very short-shighted.

among all the techniques known to induce trance states, are there any embodied in modern trance music as they are in 'real' trance music?

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Originally posted by Aquarian If you choose to define a bias so, then everything in the universe is biased, and it becomes a meaningless word.

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Originally posted by Psy-T ...should the fact that objectiveness is impossible dissuade me from using that word?

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Originally posted by Psy-T among all the techniques known to induce trance states, are there any embodied in modern trance music as they are in 'real' trance music?

Apparently so, because it's trance-enducing to some people.

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Originally posted by Aquarian Art is not the material thing in itself, but rather how you interpret it. Without that interpretation, a painting is no different than any piece of fabric.

supposing that is the case, my definitions and arguments pretain to the material thing in itself, and not art.

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Originally posted by Aquarian Apparently so, because it's trance-enducing to some people.

i've read about, experienced, and heard iterations of 'real' trance inducing trances. not the case for modern trance.

also, supposing there are some, 'real' trance would achieves it's goal better statistically speaking, as it uses relevant methods.

unless you don't agree that rollercoasters are less trance inducing than say.. sleep.

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Great, another one of these. 1) I do not "spit on" 95% of music here 2) How is that even relevant to my post or this thread? 3) If you actually looked at my sig you wouldn't need to ask (tip: click on the grey box).

Great. One more question, just to irritate you. Do you ever smile?

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Originally posted by Gauss Great. One more question, just to irritate you. Do you ever smile?

No, because the way we post in the internet really tells all about us, right? Right?

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery No, because the way we post in the internet really tells all about us, right? Right?

to believe it says nothing at all is equally retarded.

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Originally posted by Psy-T to believe it says nothing at all is equally retarded.

I said that?

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery I said that?

you said that just as much as Gauss said that "the way we post in the internet really tells all about us".

Okay, whatever. Back on topic, please.

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Originally posted by Psy-T i've read about, experienced, and heard iterations of 'real' trance inducing trances. not the case for modern trance.

Yes you have - you just haven't paid attention to them. Do I need to point you to one of those threads where a bunch of so called 'ASOT kiddies' are raving about how armin is a god and ASOT is "TEH BEST MUSIC EVAR"

Other than idol worship - alot of that has to do with the impression of euphoria that this kind of music is meant to emulate, and those people's reactions are a testament of it's efficiency. Take "armin" out of the equation and replace him with some nameless DJ, and the effect is still there (of course, minus the idol worship part of it). On the other hand, alot of those people find the "hypnotic" variety to have little if no effect on them. They don't experience the same thing you would while listening to repetitive amelodic music, but that's completely besides the point. It's not what they experience that makes it trance music, it's the fact that they experience it at all. Euphoria is a trance.

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also, supposing there are some, 'real' trance would achieves it's goal better statistically speaking, as it uses relevant methods.

As I pointed out above - if those methods are so successful, how are they not "relevant"?

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unless you don't agree that rollercoasters are less trance inducing than say.. sleep.

Sleep is a state, enduced by other actions.

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Originally posted by Aquarian Yes you have - you just haven't paid attention to them. Do I need to point you to one of those threads where a bunch of so called 'ASOT kiddies' are raving about how armin is a god and ASOT is "TEH BEST MUSIC EVAR" Other than idol worship - alot of that has to do with the impression of euphoria that this kind of music is meant to emulate, and those people's reactions are a testament of it's efficiency. Take "armin" out of the equation and replace him with some nameless DJ, and the effect is still there (of course, minus the idol worship part of it). On the other hand, alot of those people find the "hypnotic" variety to have little if no effect on them. They don't experience the same thing you would while listening to repetitive amelodic music, but that's completely besides the point. It's not what they experience that makes it trance music, it's the fact that they experience it at all. Euphoria is a trance. As I pointed out above - if those methods are so successful, how are they not "relevant"?

i believe the euphoria is not coming from the music itself but rather it's novelty to the 'asot kiddies', a factor that should be considered. if that wasn't the case i'd expect to see a lot more 'veterans' moaning over it.

as for the argument that most of the 'n00bs' are unaffected by the hypnotic variety.. it's contradicted by the responses i got to my set, which holds the higest number of views any set has gotten in that forum... quite an achievement all things considered - especially the fact this site holds more ASOT kiddies than any other group (i'm not sure whether that's still a 'fact', but it used to be).

and btw, where did you get that amelodic bit from?

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Originally posted by Aquarian Sleep is a state, enduced by other actions.

whoops , how bout rollercoaster vs meditation then?

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery No, because the way we post in the internet really tells all about us, right? Right?

It was just a guess. Sue me.

(It being you never smiling, not all about you.)

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Originally posted by Psy-T i believe the euphoria is not coming from the music itself but rather it's novelty to the 'asot kiddies', a factor that should be considered. if that wasn't the case i'd expect to see a lot more 'veterans' moaning over it.

This may be true for some, but I know first hand it isn't the case for everyone. I like both kinds of trance discussed in this thread. I've never really worshiped any big DJs, it was always all about the music.

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as for the argument that most of the 'n00bs' are unaffected by the hypnotic variety.. it's contradicted by the responses i got to my set, which holds the higest number of views any set has gotten in that forum... quite an achievement all things considered - especially the fact this site holds more ASOT kiddies than any other group (i'm not sure whether that's still a 'fact', but it used to be).

I think that euphoric trance appeals to the masses because it captures elements from conventional (or 'pop') music, and that makes it more accessible, and easier to get into. As opposed to the other variety, which is more of an aquired taste. It takes more time to appreciate it.

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whoops , how bout rollercoaster vs meditation then?

Well.. a really bad rollercoaster might put me to sleep.

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Originally posted by Pudelko As long as where alive there will constantly be new artists coming out with tracks which they feel is "the way trance should sound" and this is actually very good, because the more variety, the more people are likely to enjoy it.

Right I mean, obviosly, the more popular a genre becomes, the more dillution of the sound is gonna occur. Just through peoples liking of different aspects, when some of those people produce, they're going to focus on that aspect and represent it more.

Just like math, the more you get of a population (say trance producers), the more standard deviation you're gonna get..

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Eventually, when its possible to create something exactly the way you want it, not just something that is limited by the technology it is made on, we will see even more variety. Because right now to me, it sounds like trance is limited by the fact that its made with the technology of today. Like if you listen to stuff from early 90's you can tell its a lot less like the music released today, because the technology wasnt there to be able to create anything better.

i agree, but disagree too. Most people when they imagine parts, will recall a sound and modulate it a bit. So you can't really say that technology limits one's creativity. I'm sure producers today don't feel limitted by anything, and neither did those back then. I mean you can't see a dude in the middle ages going, man: i wish i had an electric guitar so i could add a nice crunchy solo on top of my lute rhythym. They'd be like "man, a harp solo over this freaky lute riff would sound harder than the nipples of a blind lesbian at a fish convention"

Then again, as music tech improves, more sounds become available, there is a bigger pot to choose from, so you can say the creativity increases...

Also, i'd like to say here, almost all software synths and programs try harder and harder with each new version to sound more and more like the vintage analogue software. So you can also argue that the technology for sound synthesis was better back then, at the same time however, sound recording and post production was very limitted back then, and is much improved now.

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So in the end, this topic is pointless, because there is no way that trance should sound in particular. TO ME...the people that are constantly saying that trance isnt as good as it used to be, are just saying that because they got used to the trance that was released when they started listening, and now that its changing, and other forms of the music are becoming more popular they dont enjoy it as much as the stuff that got them interested in the first place. While others who arre just getting into it, are enjoying it as if it was the best thing ever, and they may eventually feel the same way about music that will be released in say 5 to 10 years from now.

i dunno dude. lol, i ve seen a lot of peeps listening only to the new stuff go insane and cream their pants when i blast the ol' tried n trusted Paul Oakenfold Gatecrasher (19-06-1999) set of yore....

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Originally posted by Aquarian Yes you have - you just haven't paid attention to them. Do I need to point you to one of those threads where a bunch of so called 'ASOT kiddies' are raving about how armin is a god and ASOT is "TEH BEST MUSIC EVAR"

you mean like the 12 year old kiddies teen-bopping to justin timberlake and going OMFG Justing Timerlake is "TEH BEST MUSIC EVAR"

does that mean any kind of music that makes people OMG, should be considered trance?

Then fuck it, country makes people do that, gangster rap makes people do that, even bloody fucking accordian music makes some people do that...

Through that def all music is trance...cuz it makes someone somewhere go omg.

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Originally posted by Aquarian This may be true for some, but I know first hand it isn't the case for everyone. I like both kinds of trance discussed in this thread. I've never really worshiped any big DJs, it was always all about the music.

liking isn't the same as considering something to be trance-inducing by experience.

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Originally posted by Aquarian I think that euphoric trance appeals to the masses because it captures elements from conventional (or 'pop') music, and that makes it more accessible, and easier to get into. As opposed to the other variety, which is more of an aquired taste. It takes more time to appreciate it.

i still hold that the trance-inducing charataristics of modern trance should be presented, as i see no reason why they could not be presented.
'asot kiddies's understanding of the word trance seems likely to be dubious to me, and hence their iterations of it.

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Originally posted by Aquarian Well.. a really bad rollercoaster might put me to sleep.

even if supposing that's true, there remains the fact that rollercoasters aren't built with the purpose of being boring, sleep-inducing, or trance-inducing. meditation on the other hand is done in order to induce trance (in a large portion of cases).

...so which of those two should be named trance?

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you mean like the 12 year old kiddies teen-bopping to justin timberlake and going OMFG Justing Timerlake is "TEH BEST MUSIC EVAR" does that mean any kind of music that makes people OMG, should be considered trance? Then fuck it, country makes people do that, gangster rap makes people do that, even bloody fucking accordian music makes some people do that... Through that def all music is trance...cuz it makes someone somewhere go omg.

Was waiting for this to come up. I was just getting ready to make this same argument, heh.

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Originally posted by Psy-T well, eric prydz doesn't make 'house' per say the genre house was named after the warehouse club and it was used to describe the kind of music that was played there. so if you want to be strict to the original defintion, there are no new house records and there haven't been any in years (unless the warehouse was reopened at some point lol).

why he�s a part of the "swedish house mafia" then?

yes, you�ve hit the nail on the head - it implies that a strict following of a music-genre name when we talk about categorization of music leads nowhere.

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Originally posted by paulandrews why he�s a part of the "swedish house mafia" then? yes, you�ve hit the nail on the head - it implies that a strict following of a music-genre name when we talk about categorization of music leads nowhere.

do you see any reason whatsoever to have two 'completely' different tracks share the same genre name? cause i sure as hell don't.

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you mean like the 12 year old kiddies teen-bopping to justin timberlake and going OMFG Justing Timerlake is "TEH BEST MUSIC EVAR" does that mean any kind of music that makes people OMG, should be considered trance? Then fuck it, country makes people do that, gangster rap makes people do that, even bloody fucking accordian music makes some people do that... Through that def all music is trance...cuz it makes someone somewhere go omg.

That's besides the point. All music can be appreciated and loved, but this isn't music that induces altered states of mind, nor is it intended to.

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Originally posted by Psy-T liking isn't the same as considering something to be trance-inducing by experience.

I know, and I have taken that into consideration. What I meant is that I have been entranced by both genres - but in different ways.

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i still hold that the trance-inducing charataristics of modern trance should be presented, as i see no reason why they could not be presented.

I would say that it's mechanisms are somewhat similar in the sense of "repetition without repetition" - or interacting layers that move progressively without sudden unexpected changes. This, coupled with overblown emotional anthems that draw the listener's attention.

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Originally posted by Psy-T do you see any reason whatsoever to have two 'completely' different tracks share the same genre name? cause i sure as hell don't.

show me two tracks that are completely different and share the same genre name, cause i don�t know any.

and now we�re talking what does 'completely different' mean for you and for me. again, it�s subjective.

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Originally posted by paulandrews show me two tracks that are completely different and share the same genre name, cause i don�t know any. and now we�re talking what does 'completely different' mean for you and for me. again, it�s subjective.

eric prydz - call on me
pierres pfantasy club - dream girl

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Originally posted by Aquarian I would say that it's mechanisms are somewhat similar in the sense of "repetition without repetition" - or interacting layers that move progressively without sudden unexpected changes. This, coupled with overblown emotional anthems that draw the listener's attention.

isn't drawing the listeners attention counter-productive here?
as well as the fact that the changes are expected?

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