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-- Breaking News: Isreal and Lebanon at War?
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Originally posted by JM yeah shit, i just read about this on aljazeera.net website... what the fuck is going on here, i didn't think there was THIS much friction there... guess i was wrong. >JM<

LOL "much friction"

iongsdojsdjgsdg


I don't even know to respond to that assumption...





Anyways they bombed Beiruts international airports runways.


Personally I think all those fucking countries, Israel included should just be wiped out. They are seriously a thorn in the side of the rest of the world.

So just to reiterate, it's a good thing that Sharon is gone now right? Despite him being relatively in control with the Hawkish branch of Israelis, so much so that he could diplomatically coordinate prisoner swaps when the situation warranted diplomacy, and he was spearheading disengagement in the west bank following gaza, I'm SO glad that things are so much better with him gone! FFS he was no saint but he was the only leader capable of effectively corraling over-reactionary Israelis through the debacle (complete utter failure? ... I'm still waiting for a government with any kind of effective mandate) that is the Palestinian movement. Not to say I told you so ...

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Originally posted by Q5echo ...however i would like to see you jump down Opus's throat every once in a while if you are so inclined to guage from the middle.

yeah, i see what youre saying. i guess coz its your party in power its easier to look like a partisan than those criticising it. dont worry, after the dems win the next election ill make sure opus aint free from crit either for what its worth tho, your rants with opus make excellent and informative reading

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Originally posted by Q5echo what sometimes is even more frustrating, though, is centrists (not you in particular) that sit on that fence of some very serious life and death issues and often look down on the rest of us trying to make a difference one way or another, for better or for worse.

look, i totally agree and thats one of the reasons my ideological shift has occured since uni. there are tough situations with even tougher solutions all around us and credit to those people that do their best in the context theyre stuck in.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's an impossibility and utter nonsense. If the Zionists were on any sort of "moral high ground" ever, or had any sense of elementary morality, pirnciples, or ethics, they wouldn't make a country exclusively for an non-indigenous populuation on LAND THAT WAS ALREADY INHABITED! This whole mess is entirely their fault, and there's simply no debating that. If it weren't for them, this situation wouldn't exist in the first place. I apologize in advance tathi if you took any offence to that, I'm obviously not trying to target you in any way. Even the thought of any moral legitimacy of the state of Israel or it's actions is highly offensive and a slap in the face for the Palestians who've been butchered, brutalized and humiliated for the entire duration of it's existance (i.e. Israel). It doesn't take a vast intellect or a higly sophisticated moral consciousness to figure that one out. EDIT: Before you guys attack me (Fir3Start3r, Q5 etc.), there is absolutely nothing partisan about sticking to elemtary morality, unless that something unique to the left (and before you get your panties in a bunch, I'm not implying that).

firstly, youve totally misread what tathi was saying. he wasnt insinuating that israel have the moral authority, more that they grasp at it in the whole "terrorism" context.

secondly, debating the whole root causes and effects of 1949 is pointless and irrelevant bullshit. as you yourself have said, no side should be eliminated. israel is there to stay. the sooner the militant palestinians accept this the better for everyone. i mean seriously, is this how they wish to reward israel's withdrawals?

whilst israel's creation may be the original problem, you cant argue that the mess since then is entirely their fault. only israelies, palestinians & anti semites/arabs argue either side is 100% to blame.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z EDIT2: Another thing, that doesn't mean I think one side should be eliminated or any nonsense of the sort. Despite the desparity of their plight, both sides need to fucking wake up to the fact that their "leadership" doesn't give 2 shits about the well being or interests of the general population. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for the most part, both sides (the people) are fucking sick of this by now and just want to live in peace.

but thats simply not true. you only have to look at hamas' and hezbollah's stance on the destruction of israel to show peace is the last thing on their minds. and no doubt theres a fair few hawks in the israeli cabinet.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider So just to reiterate, it's a good thing that Sharon is gone now right? Despite him being relatively in control with the Hawkish branch of Israelis, so much so that he could diplomatically coordinate prisoner swaps when the situation warranted diplomacy, and he was spearheading disengagement in the west bank following gaza, I'm SO glad that things are so much better with him gone! FFS he was no saint but he was the only leader capable of effectively corraling over-reactionary Israelis through the debacle (complete utter failure? ... I'm still waiting for a government with any kind of effective mandate) that is the Palestinian movement. Not to say I told you so ...

Excuse me, but when was the Sharon administration ever confronted with a smiliar situation? The last soldiers kindapping happened in 1994. In 2000 it was the bodies of three killed soldiers that were handed back, and as far as i can remember, not for the price of 1000 released prisonders.
What goes on right now is at the one hand a provocation, on the other hand simply a TEST, a primitive way to check the new leader's "balls". To see how far you can go, to detect weakness. Te motivation for such actions is already detected weakness as Israel has a smiliar history with Gaza and Southern Lebanon: One-sided withdrawl with no concessions from the other side, which in both cases followed a history of heavy terrorism in these areas. This explains Israel's and particularly Olmert's harsh reaction: The individual politician Omert's wants to prove he's got what it takes, the nation of Israel does the same realizing the very project of Zionism is at stake. While terrorist activities within occupied territory or between it and Israel was at least psychologically always about the foreign land itself, the current attacks from de-facto foreign soil to the sovereign state of Israel is about nothing less than the very existance of the latter. The subject of the current blackmail goes deep into Israel's own independance.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z If it weren't for them, this situation wouldn't exist in the first place. EDIT: Before you guys attack me (Fir3Start3r, Q5 etc.), there is absolutely nothing partisan about sticking to elemtary morality, unless that something unique to the left (and before you get your panties in a bunch, I'm not implying that).

i have nothing against what the U.N. did in 1948. do you?

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's an impossibility and utter nonsense. If the Zionists were on any sort of "moral high ground" ever, or had any sense of elementary morality, pirnciples, or ethics, they wouldn't make a country exclusively for an non-indigenous populuation on LAND THAT WAS ALREADY INHABITED! This whole mess is entirely their fault, and there's simply no debating that. If it weren't for them, this situation wouldn't exist in the first place.

oh yes, it's our fault. anti-semitism in Europe during ~ 1900 (which led to the first wave of immigration to Israel) has nothing to do with it. so does the Holocaust. the jewish people should have just -- what? set a homeland in the middle of the ocean?

and by the way, the Jewish leadership agreed to the partition of this land (into a Jewish state and an Arab state) in 1947, while the arabs didn't. so they start a war, we win, the land is ours. end of story.

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Originally posted by Nauru Personally I think all those fucking countries, Israel included should just be wiped out. They are seriously a thorn in the side of the rest of the world.

dude, please, shut up.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Iran will probably get involved in this shortly. Things are not looking good over there AT ALL.

Iran wont get involved.

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Originally posted by Nauru Anyways they bombed Beiruts international airports runways.

Yuh. Just read that on teh CNN.com

quote:

Originally posted by occrider So just to reiterate, it's a good thing that Sharon is gone now right? Despite him being relatively in control with the Hawkish branch of Israelis, so much so that he could diplomatically coordinate prisoner swaps when the situation warranted diplomacy, and he was spearheading disengagement in the west bank following gaza, I'm SO glad that things are so much better with him gone! FFS he was no saint but he was the only leader capable of effectively corraling over-reactionary Israelis through the debacle (complete utter failure? ... I'm still waiting for a government with any kind of effective mandate) that is the Palestinian movement. Not to say I told you so ...

finally some rationale for the modernist.

for arguments sake, Sharone could work with Abbas, thats a given. the historical hardliners that are still there, whether Likhud or Kadima, look at Hamas' take over as the prelude to war. not the kidnapping. the kidnapping was icing on the cake. hence, IMO Sharone would have done the exact same thing. Israel knew that Abbas' fall from power was a foregone conclusion the day Hamas took control and for Israel, the stage was set.

It's starting to get very serious, and I'm getting scared.
A Katyusha bomb fell in Zefat a couple of minutes ago, most of my family lives there. My Aunt and her family lives in Shlomi and they sent their kids to family in our area, too dangerous to be there atm.

I've heard that now they want to hit Haifa and the Qrayot area, where I live and where there is a refinery and a big industrial area which could be very hazardous.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you and Q5 are getting worse by the month.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN yeah, punish an entire people for the actions of a few

Hizbollah is part of the Lebanese government.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's an impossibility and utter nonsense. If the Zionists were on any sort of "moral high ground" ever, or had any sense of elementary morality, pirnciples, or ethics, they wouldn't make a country exclusively for an non-indigenous populuation on LAND THAT WAS ALREADY INHABITED! This whole mess is entirely their fault, and there's simply no debating that. If it weren't for them, this situation wouldn't exist in the first place.

The Muslims are not indigenous to the region. Their presence there is the result of CONQUEST.

quote:

Originally posted by JM yeah shit, i just read about this on aljazeera.net website... what the fuck is going on here, i didn't think there was THIS much friction there... guess i was wrong. >JM<

Where have you been JM, much friction is a tad bit of an understatement.

I have given up on that region ever having peace, if it wasn't the Babylonians, ancient Egyptians, then Romans in conflict with the Jews, Christians and the Muslims killing each other from the dumb ass crusades, if it isn't the Jews and Muslims killing each other over land and religous zealots on both sides would like nothing less to further their own agendas. In the end this has gone on for centuries and won't stop now if it couldn't way back when.

quote:

sounds like your timing was pretty good psy-t.

what happened, he moved out of the country or something?

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Originally posted by KrazyDJs It's starting to get very serious, and I'm getting scared. A Katyusha bomb fell in Zefat a couple of minutes ago, most of my family lives there. My Aunt and her family lives in Shlomi and they sent their kids to family in our area, too dangerous to be there atm. I've heard that now they want to hit Haifa and the Qrayot area, where I live and where there is a refinery and a big industrial area which could be very hazardous.

that's quite a scary situation indeed, best of luck to you

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Originally posted by paranoik0 what happened, he moved out of the country or something?

The army decided they didn't want him anymore

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Originally posted by Lira The army decided they didn't want him anymore

hey, don't give them all the credit

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Originally posted by Yoepus Its targeting both, Israel can no longer afford to make a distinction between the terrorist and those the harbor and support them. If you want the safety and security of your citizens, infastucture, and economy, do not let terrorist use your country. End of story.

To be honest, that's the kind of mentality that sets people off against your country. Israel's belief that they should exist overrides the rights of other people to live, not only terrorists, but civilians alike. Israel's methods are brutish and uncalled for. If they even had the level of precision of the US military I wouldn't have complaints. Did you even read the part where it implies Lebanon has absolutely no control over hizbollah? Or are you regurgitating preconceived arguments. Now I read that Israel's bombed an international airport (for civilians, if you're unsure). What the hell is that going to do? NOTHING. Bombing bridges? NOTHING. Bombing beaches? NOTHING. It just shows desperation, shows how long you're willing to go and how ineffective your military and intelligence are.

edit: I'd like to add that Sharon was an excellent leader of Israel and it's unfortunate that he had the stroke. It wasn't because he didn't "face a situation" like this one. He was able to curb violence and further the peace process. Omert is a hardliner and his enemies know him as such. Both sides want to look tough, so this is what it comes to.

quote:

Originally posted by Nauru Personally I think all those fucking countries, Israel included should just be wiped out. They are seriously a thorn in the side of the rest of the world.

lol

Lebanon will burn tonight.
erase it from the map.

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Originally posted by psychosomatica I really like your post. If you read the paragraph below the one you posted, you will see that Lebanon should NOT be held solely responsible as the southern region of Lebanon is functions "nearly as an autonomous region". The US and UN hold Syria and Iran as the culprits (read the title) so what's the deal with going within 10 miles of Beirut? In effect, Israel is not targetting Hizballah but seems to me (and most likely others) that Lebanon is being targetted. Civilian infrastructures are considered as legitimate targets.

And you know WHY they're targeting those structures right?
It's not Lebanon that's the problem no, it's the problem IN Lebanon that's the problem; big difference.
I've already spelled that out for you guys but you're not reading it apparently.

I'll type it again.

The Hizballah were mandated by the U.N. to disarm years ago and neither they (The hizballah), nor Lebanon, did anything about it.
Now we have a situation where Hizballah guerillas are coming over Isreal's border from Lebanon killing/kidnapping a sovereign government's soldiers to be used as leverage in very lopsided prisoner exchange requests.
It's a despicable action by any government's standards as we can see from the statements issued by other countries.
Isreal has obviously had it up to their eyeballs with cockroaches hiding amounst the innocent and making demands behind human sheilds.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r And you know WHY they're targeting those structures right? It's not Lebanon that's the problem no, it's the problem IN Lebanon that's the problem; big difference. I've already spelled that out for you guys but you're not reading it apparently. I'll type it again. The Hizballah were mandated by the U.N. to disarm years ago and neither they (The hizballah), nor Lebanon, did anything about it. Now we have a situation where Hizballah guerillas are coming over Isreal's border from Lebanon killing/kidnapping a sovereign government's soldiers to be used as leverage in very lopsided prisoner exchange requests. It's a despicable action by any government's standards as we can see from the statements issued by other countries. Isreal has obviously had it up to their eyeballs with cockroaches hiding amounst the innocent and making demands behind human sheilds.

What you're not understanding is that it serves no purpose. FIND the soldier. Don't bomb everything you can think of. Why don't you bomb every house in Lebanon because they could be used to harbour terrorists?

This situation is getting pretty funny anyway:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...3275195,00.html

Should we hold Israel responsible for this and start bombing their bridges, beaches and airports?

If you don't see how your argument can be used both ways... then you should consider the objectivity of your opinions... or even consider the validity of your arguments.

And shit gets worse, the sad reality is that if Israel doesn't back down this could be war, Lebanon is however too weak to respond as a state, so it would be a guerilla conflict as with Hezbollah and Israel in the past. As hard as it may be to do Israel may need to take a chill pill and rethink, what are they going to do bomb all of Lebanon, that will only make things even worse.


Hezbollah fires rockets at Haifa

The militant Lebanese group Hezbollah has fired rockets at the Israeli port city of Haifa, reports say.

There were no immediate reports of injuries or damage.

Haifa, Israel's third largest city, is situated more than 30km (18 miles) from the Lebanese border and was thought to be out of Hezbollah's range.

The attack comes as Israel imposes an air and sea blockade on Lebanon, following the capture of two of its soldiers by the militant group.

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Originally posted by psychosomatica What you're not understanding is that it serves no purpose. FIND the soldier. Don't bomb everything you can think of. Why don't you bomb every house in Lebanon because they could be used to harbour terrorists? This situation is getting pretty funny anyway: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...3275195,00.html Should we hold Israel responsible for this and start bombing their bridges, beaches and airports? If you don't see how your argument can be used both ways... then you should consider the objectivity of your opinions... or even consider the validity of your arguments.

damn, you really didn't understand, this whole time, that Hamas kidnapped Gilad Shalit? Hamas is the palestinian government for fuck's sake! did you see the Israeli government kidnapping palestinians?
and besides, this 'organization' kidnapped the two palestinians AFTER the kidnapping of Shalit, as a result. it's kind of a different thing.

edit: plus, Shalit kidnapping has nothing to do with the bombings in the north (at least, in my opinion).

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