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-- The Debates: Issue #2 - Abortion
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^^ Why do you say that?

I read through your longer post, and agreed with the majority of it, which is why I didn't need to quote you and take you to task on any of the issues you raised. Take it as a compliment.

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade ^^ Why do you say that? I read through your longer post, and agreed with the majority of it, which is why I didn't need to quote you and take you to task on any of the issues you raised. Take it as a compliment.

WOW i am so used to EVERYONE disagreeing with me....i guess we are together on this one....LOL i figured noone read my post cus noone FOUGHT with me....good

LOL

Poor tiesto14. He thinks no one reads anything he writes, hehe

Very good points Renegade.

You see what I mean though Tiesto? No one is gonna get riled up over organ donation.

opinion

I have read all the threads and there is some very good issues raised.
Im 18 and have fuck all money my g/f is 18 and have fuck all money. by any chance she was pregnant abortion would be considerd , as bringing a human life into this world would be extremly difficult to raise and bring up without ���, i know love is free but hey its 2002 and money is what makes the world go round and the panties drop.

Its is not MURDER if you have an abortion as that egg / baby aint seen light or opened its eyes. I aint god and i aint a girl. God bless MANKIND.......

Having an abortion is like having your teeth cleaned. I think it is worse to bring a cild into this world and not be able to support it then to destroy the cells before they are even clinicly human

Hmm...interesting and good points everywhere!

My wife and I have decided against kids until we're more financially responsible...
Now what does financially responsible mean? Basically when we feel we can afford to bring up the child without any hardship because of $$$ (or ��� as is were).
WE want to raise our kid(s), not a babysitter, not a daycare, us. Meaning one of us (most likely her) will be at home.
Kids are a HUGE responsibility both monitarily and morally.

Now what is the point of my telling you all this? Just this, we planned it this way.
I don't look at abortion as planning anything.
Is it needed? Sure, if the woman was raped or some other crime was involved, then absolutely.
But for those (sorry for the strong words here) who can't keep their legs closed or dick in check, then they are absolutely responsible for bringing another person into this world.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r But for those (sorry for the strong words here) who can't keep their legs closed or dick in check, then they are absolutely responsible for bringing another person into this world.

I think you are being too harsh.
There is nothing wrong with having fun and enjoying sex; that's what life is all about.
No one can be 100% sure that the condom won't break, for example.

These are the realities of life, and we can't ignore them.
People will always be having sex, and lots of it, because it's one of the most powerful human urges, and it's quite natural.

You say you and your wife have done some family planning.
What are you gonna do if the condom breaks?
What are you gonna do if one day she forgets to take her pill?
Then all this intelligent 'family planning' will go the fuck out of the window, and you'll become a supporter of abortions -- because that's reality for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r But for those (sorry for the strong words here) who can't keep their legs closed or dick in check, then they are absolutely responsible for bringing another person into this world.

So then since a woman decides to have sex and unfortuantley gets preganant even though she didnt want...you think she should keep the baby even if she does not want, can not afford it, and is not emotionally ready for it...

So in other words you punish this woman for making a mistake.,..and that punishment is not 2 months in jail, not a fine but a BABY that she is NOT ready for...dont you feel that is a form of child abuse?..to bring a child into the world where he/she will not be wanted and may not be loved for...and maybe even resented....the woman may be distant from the child or not care for it as she would a baby she wanted...or she may end up throwing it in a dumpster or killing it herself and hiding it somewhere..because she is not ready///

Thats a pretty harsh punishment for the WOMAN and the BABY....a baby should not be a punishment to proove to the woman she must pay for her consequences and to show her she made her bed and now she must lay in it...that baby is a life sentence...pretty hard penalty for sex...dont you think...

This guy Fir3start3r's argument is severely flawed.
He doesn't understand that no matter how carefully you plan things, no one can predict the outcome with 100% certainty.

Let me tell you a few things:

1. Both teenagers and adults are sexual beings.
2. There is NOTHING wrong with enjoying oneself sexually; people have done this and will always do this - at ALL ages. This is perfectly natural and normal (and it's good for your health, too).
3. NO ONE can anticipate with 100% certainty what will happen in the future -- even if you are an intelligent, educated, discreet person. Even if you take precautions.

Therefore, Fir3start3r's argument is not only stupid, it is hypocritical. I sincerely doubt that in the course of his "family planning" he is willing to go to the extremes of complete abstinence. Didn't think so. In that case, he is as vulnerable to the danger of unwanted pregnancy by his wife/gf as everybody else in the world. An educated, mature, and "moral" 50-year-old man is as vulnerable as a horny 16-year-old teenager.

As you can see, my philosophy in life is: be realistic.
What I hate above anything else, is hypocrisy and pseudo-"morality"!!

i feel women should have the right to choose. although one thing that i would mention is that after the first trimester (3 months), no abortion should be allowed.

my personal thoughts....

>JM<

The debate is heating up!

quote:

So in other words you punish this woman for making a mistake.,..and that punishment is not 2 months in jail, not a fine but a BABY that she is NOT ready for...dont you feel that is a form of child abuse?..to bring a child into the world where he/she will not be wanted and may not be loved for...and maybe even resented....

quote:

1. Both teenagers and adults are sexual beings. 2. There is NOTHING wrong with enjoying oneself sexually; people have done this and will always do this - at ALL ages. This is perfectly natural and normal (and it's good for your health, too). 3. NO ONE can anticipate with 100% certainty what will happen in the future -- even if you are an intelligent, educated, discreet person. Even if you take precautions.

*nods*

Hmmm...
So what I'm hearing then is that sex and responsiblity are two different issue here.
Is sex wrong, no I never said that. Yes, we a sexual beings.
But I can't believe there's not one person here that believes there's no responsiblity in sex??

What if the person has a VD? (Venerial Disease)....OOOoooo....now there is something to think about. Certainly wouldn't want the ole' wiener to fall now...
So why is that decision taken so seriously against the ultimate responsibily of bring someone into the world?
Abortion should not be used (my opinion here) as a convenient scapegoat. (That's what I'm hearing; tell me if I'm wrong...)

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Therefore, Fir3start3r's argument is not only stupid, it is hypocritical.

Absolutely not. I told everyone that I accept my responsility and told everyone what I did with support for my arguement. Therefore, can't be hypocritical. Hypocritical would be me not practising what I 'preach'...
Sex? I probably get it more than most people here, not to brag...but then, that's the bonus of being married to my beautiful partner.

quote:

So in other words you punish this woman for making a mistake.,..and that punishment is not 2 months in jail, not a fine but a BABY that she is NOT ready for...dont you feel that is a form of child abuse?..to bring a child into the world where he/she will not be wanted and may not be loved for...and maybe even resented....

Absolutely that 'could' happen and has. No arguement here. But as far as how the child 'could' be raised is sort of hypothetical. That's like saying I 'could' drive my car to Toronto but 'might' get in an accident. Does that stop me from driving? No.
It was no mistake how she got pregnant.

quote:

3. NO ONE can anticipate with 100% certainty what will happen in the future -- even if you are an intelligent, educated, discreet person. Even if you take precautions.

This is true, however, we all know the process of making the baby (I hope ).
Sex is a powerful emotion, a powerful tool (aka media), even contagious to some (!) but there has to be a check somewhere.
Some people need to think ahead when it comes to sex; thinking with the head above their shoulders.
In a world where no one likes to accept responsibility, they find excuses.

quote:

Then all this intelligent 'family planning' will go the fuck out of the window, and you'll become a supporter of abortions -- because that's reality for you.

See, here is where I have an advantage over most here. I'm married and if that happens (sure it could) then I will accept responsibility, assume fatherhood, do the best we can and have to step up our plans that's all. That's not going to stop me from having sex though (are you MAD? ).

We haven't heard from any women/girls here...what's their take on this?? (Or have we?) These are definately the people with the utimate decision...

Good points people!

I respect your opinion however i disagree that a woman should have to pay for her irresponsibilty
for her entire life...if we all had to pay for all the dumb idiotic things we have ALL done in our life then we would all be in seeriosu trouble..

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Hmmm... So what I'm hearing then is that sex and responsiblity are two different issue here.But I can't believe there's not one person here that believes there's no responsiblity in sex??

well they are 2 different things,,.but they do belong together...responsibilty should go hand and hand with every action we take....

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Abortion should not be used (my opinion here) as a convenient scapegoat. (That's what I'm hearing; tell me if I'm wrong...)

I dont think many women use it that way...you really think woman enjoy the abortion preocess..it is a very tramatic experience for them and is not soemthing find pleasure in....


But facing ones consequences is one thing...i mean if you say take a murderer and put him in jail for killing someone then that punishement is just...and if you take a robber or rapist for commiting their criems in jail that is also just..

BUT to take a woman who screwed up and made a poor decision and tell her she has to live with that for life is kind of crazy.....imagine you had to pay for all the stupid and naive things you have done in your life.....

a baby WHEN it is born is a human being...NOT and i repeat NOT a punishement or a criminal sentence to someones poor or ignorant choices.....it is a living and breathing creature and to make a woman who does not want it have it is CHILD ABUSE...and if you want i can get you statistics on all woman in the U.S. who have had children who didnt want them and show you how so so many babies where beaten,tortured,neglected,verbally and mentally abused......

Saying a woman must face her consequences and keep the baby is not far from saying a person who Overdoses on drugs should die and NOT be helped because he/she made a stupid decision to take too much or too dangerous drugs....there is not much difference there except 1 is life and 1 is death...either one is a cruel and harsh punishment for bad decision making....

i dont quite know where i stand
it really depends on the situation.theres no wya of telling if its a right choice unless you are in that persons place
but the obvious is clear..
against it for people who use it as a scapegoat
but for it when a 13 yr. old gets raped by her dad and turns out pregnant

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