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here is hte most extensive phylogeny that ive encountered (tree of life)


i got to humans from basic singular cell life it took a good 3 or 4 minutes of clicking lol

so its at humans now


http://tolweb.org/Homo_sapiens/16421


now yhou can go on the right where it says "contains group" and see where humans branch from in detail.

oh man i love when evolutionists bring up fossils
(creationism = stupid imo, figure i should put that out there)
i've heard the argument brought up that fossils are there to lead the weak-minded and unfaithful astray and weed out those who aren't completely devout
don't argue with religious people, ignore them
just like arguing with little kids
when they say i'm rubber and you're glue etc, or some other such thing they just say over and over again, you can't win the argument by proving yourself right or them wrong, you can only win it by walking away and not feeling the need for them to acknowledge that you're correct, because you know you are. however, that same logic kinda just makes arguing useless.

i just reread that paragraph literally 5 seconds after i wrote it and i have no idea what the fuck i'm talking about
lol!

quote:

Originally posted by mezzir oh man i love when evolutionists bring up fossils (creationism = stupid imo, figure i should put that out there) i've heard the argument brought up that fossils are there to lead the weak-minded and unfaithful astray and weed out those who aren't completely devout don't argue with religious people, ignore them just like arguing with little kids when they say i'm rubber and you're glue etc, or some other such thing they just say over and over again, you can't win the argument by proving yourself right or them wrong, you can only win it by walking away and not feeling the need for them to acknowledge that you're correct, because you know you are. however, that same logic kinda just makes arguing useless. i just reread that paragraph literally 5 seconds after i wrote it and i have no idea what the fuck i'm talking about lol!

jesus loves deutorostomes

I was browsing this and thought I would give another theory, but I don't want to start a flame war. Let me make this clear, I do believe in Evolution, and am not a Creationist. I saw that some people were saying "there is either creationism or evolution, and not a third" well the third thing is this, and I'm not saying it is the truth, it's just another theory and it is complete speculation but who knows...

Evolution, Progression or some type of "Process" is the natural state of universe and of life within it, well that's what I've come to believe. So because life forms evolve and adapt, and since we are studying organisms and working to create new organisms in the lab and study them, what if something did the same to us? Wouldn't it be possible to duplicate evolution in a lab via experimenting with our DNA? So if we saw a primitive form of life on another planet, wouldn't it be possible to fuse some of our DNA with that life form, and create a new life form? And then keep creating it and recreating it, until it is able to sustain itself?

Basically it comes down to this. We can study evolution and learn to recreate it in a lab. As we get more advanced technologically, we could (and are beginning to) create fusions...or hybrids. What if we are the byproduct of this by some life-forms on another planet? What if our evolution is a series of experiments, many of them failed, until we became the humans with a brain and body that could survive in our world? And what if the next step in our evolution is upon us? After all, if you believe or have read about alien abductions, the aliens are supposedly creating a hybrid race, and that hybrid race could very well be the next step in our evolution....many, many abductees from all over the world have reported it.

Haha it is a weird theory, I know, but it's worth discussing (intelligently) I think, even if it's a load of crap. Doesn't hurt to brainstorm some new ideas. This might not be exactly "scientific" but doesn't hurt to speculate about things.

^^ and its also possible the universe was created by this:



it doesnt mean that we should entertain all ludicrous ideas because there might be a possibility. there is no evidence for anything you have written, so id err on the side of caution.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 I was browsing this and thought I would give another theory, but I don't want to start a flame war. Let me make this clear, I do believe in Evolution, and am not a Creationist. I saw that some people were saying "there is either creationism or evolution, and not a third" well the third thing is this

How can you claim that's the third when there's all this waiting in line?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_belief

quote:

# 1 Creation myths # 2 Scientific observations * 2.1 Mainstream scientific theories * 2.2 Beliefs grounded in philosophical naturalism # 3 Creation ex nihilo # 4 Religious creation beliefs # 5 Limits to the ontology of creation # 6 Creation within various belief systems * 6.1 Ainu * 6.2 Apache * 6.3 Australian Aboriginal * 6.4 Babylonian * 6.5 Bantu * 6.6 Buddhist * 6.7 Cherokee * 6.8 Chinese * 6.9 Choctaw * 6.10 Christian o 6.10.1 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints * 6.11 Creek * 6.12 Egyptian * 6.13 Evolutionary Spirituality * 6.14 Greek (Classical) * 6.15 Hermeticism * 6.16 Hindu * 6.17 Hopi * 6.18 Hmong * 6.19 Inca * 6.20 Inuit * 6.21 Iroquois * 6.22 Islam * 6.23 Japan * 6.24 Jainism * 6.25 Judaism * 6.26 Lakota * 6.27 Maasai * 6.28 Mandaeism * 6.29 Mandinka * 6.30 Mansi * 6.31 Mayan * 6.32 Māori * 6.33 Mongol * 6.34 Navajo * 6.35 Norse * 6.36 Ojibwe * 6.37 Orok * 6.38 Polynesian o 6.38.1 Hawaiian * 6.39 Randomness * 6.40 Seminole * 6.41 Sikh * 6.42 Surat Shabda Yoga * 6.43 Taoism * 6.44 Voodoo * 6.45 Wicca * 6.46 Yoruba * 6.47 Zen * 6.48 Zoroastrianism * 6.49 Zulu

That's the creationists' greatest flaw - they see their culture as absolute, and think their religious view is more special than the zulu's religious view.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ^^ and its also possible the universe was created by this: it doesnt mean that we should entertain all ludicrous ideas because there might be a possibility. there is no evidence for anything you have written, so id err on the side of caution.

I know there isn't a huge amount of evidence but it's just another theory I thought I would add to keep the discussion interesting. It's not scientific, I'm aware of this. Nor is it something I steadfastly believe, although I do believe in a good number (but not all) alien abductions as well as UFOs (i'm not one to believe anything I see or read but there are some stuff i've seen or read, even lately, that I dunno how someone can refute).

It's fun to speculate, not be all scientific or theological all the time (either extreme scares me). This theory is neither scientific (because it's not really proven by it) or theological (because it doesn't deal with religion or God, though the Raelian cult believes in something like this but their cooks, i'm just speculating not believing.) But it is good to keep an open mind too...

quote:

Originally posted by Lira How can you claim that's the third when there's all this waiting in line? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_belief That's the creationists' greatest flaw - they see their culture as absolute, and think their religious view is more special than the zulu's religious view.

Understandable but a third as in neither a scientific (evolution) nor a theological or mythological explanation. But I guess you could say a moderm mythological idea...I mean what the hell, why not speculate?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ^^ and its also possible the universe was created by this: it doesnt mean that we should entertain all ludicrous ideas because there might be a possibility. there is no evidence for anything you have written, so id err on the side of caution.

Fastest growing religion in Kansas.

how come it doesn't show the evolution of the size of the penis

something simple to support evoloution



you can see the homologies here between the different species showing a common derivative. Believing that live evolved from a basic form is not neglecting creation and a god, it simply just logical conclusions based on science dealing with DNA carbon dating and migration patterns

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 Understandable but a third as in neither a scientific (evolution) nor a theological or mythological explanation. But I guess you could say a moderm mythological idea...I mean what the hell, why not speculate?

The seed behind "alien" hybrids and all that jazz is a symbolic manifestation of The Divine Mother.

As i'm sure you know, "The Father and The Son" dominate earth in terms of overt religious persona. "The Mother and The Daughter" therefore have to find new and interesting ways to manifest themselves.

Presto Alien hybrids and the like. So for instance in "species" its a hot blonde canadian whose comes to earth or in Spielbergs Taken the focus is on the Blonde female Dakota Fanning.

And of course Aliens with Sigourney Weaver is about the Mom and the Daughter and the Mom all fighting it out (but Bishop does all the real work )

If you have any other questions I'm here all night! but tomorrow i'll be performing in Las Vegas

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 But it is good to keep an open mind too...

thats not keeping an open mind. keeping an open mind is about allowing all PLAUSIBLE options to be tested without making a judgement before youve examined the possibilities.

youre talking about science fiction with absolutely nothing to substantiate it. thats not keeping an open mind, its just bad logic. i could argue our world was created by that spaghetti meatball monster. its equally plausible as your idea. but to spend time or effort studying either is ridiculous and a waste of time.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 I mean what the hell, why not speculate?

coz we humans have developed rationality and logic and its a travesty to waste them on pointless exercises like the spaghetti monster.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN coz we humans have developed rationality and logic and its a travesty to waste them on pointless exercises like the spaghetti monster.

But in the right context (United States school board policy to be specific), the Spaghetti Monster has a very specific purpose and is a masterful move designed by a couple of very educated people for political means.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 Understandable but a third as in neither a scientific (evolution) nor a theological or mythological explanation.

Actually, what you said is no different from the other mythological explanations in essence

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Actually, what you said is no different from the other mythological explanations in essence

Exactly but it's not religious. It's just another theory i've read about. It's not really mine. I've made it a point to say it's not scientific, because there is no concrete evidence. It's just speculation, and speculation doesn't need to be plausible or scientific, it's just that..speculating..dreaming...whatever. I happen to believe in natural evolution, the biological model, not this. Just thought i'de leave this other explanation out there to discuss, even if it's not true and a load of crap. It's moderm mythology like I pointed out. It's not worth arguing in a scientific way, although the idea of recreating evolution and hybridization is in is a possibility.

The fact remains that just because you can come up with an idea to explain something does not mean that you should give it any weight unless there is evidence to support it. I'll go with an example from my own people's mythology.

Persephone, the daughter of Demeter, was snatched by Hades. Demeter was the goddess of the harvest or something like that. Bottom line, she cut a deal with him that she could have her daughter for half the year and he could have her for the other half. When she was with Hades, she was saddened by her absence, and so all plantlife withered and died. When she returned, she was happy, and so made all plantlife blossom and flourish again. Hence, the explaination of the seasons.

Later, their rationality to explain things scientifically overcame this by determining that the changing of the sun angle yielded less or more heat, depending on the time of year. This coupled with mathematics explaining this phenomenon killed that myth.

People have the ability to move on from their fairy tales, as this example shows. There is no reason we should continue to hold on to them today.

Heh, i just watched the episode of [ Penn & Teller: Bullshit ] last night where they had a go at the creationists.

Anyone wanna sum up the last 6 pages for me?
damn threads come out of nowhere >_>

EDIT> in the show someone made the argument that no one has ever proved natural selection - which is idiotic because you can't prove God exists either. Theres a lot that can't be proven, just supported - as we would have been taught in our science classes :P

Question: Do creationists believe literally in Adam & Eve and therefore, inbreeding?

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Why do you doubt, exactly? What if one group went through this: http://www.physorg.com/news72100592.html http://www.sci-tech-today.com/story...id=132007GM06W0

I doubt because the assumption is that small micro-evolutionary changes, like a beak being a different size(a mutation that was beneficial), will eventually lead to a macro-evolutionary change in which the genetic make up of the birds will be completely different from each other. There just is no proof other than speculation that this will occur. Gradualism is not supported by the current fossil records available and if anything the fossil record supports stasis and then sudden appearances of new species rather than gradual changes being suggested in these articles.

All of these theories are frameworks to help us understand a larger picture that we simply cannot understand... at least, not right now anyway.

I believe in evolution; it has been irrefutably proven - but the common idea, at least what I have gathered from those who believe in the evolution theory, is that we actually came from apes. This in particular, I do not believe in.

Saying that the evolution theory is B.S. was a little harsh, I will admit, seeing as a lot of the basic premises that the theory is derived from, I believe to be true.

It's pretty basic science and biology, (which, mind you, I suck at.)

Anyway, with that said, I believe that we evolved from something similar to an ape, but not necessarily what we believe to be the common ape in our times now.

AKA Lira, you are right. I do take it literal, as I believe it is the common conception amongst those whom believe in this theory simply to spite religious theories, that we are literally derived from apes.

P.S. My rhetoric is lacking, (and I am sleepy,) so I apologize for my temperate explaining.

God created apes.
God decided to fuck around with with the planet a little end and he realised the creatures he created couldn't cope with the changes that he made so he decided to sit down and code some patches and upgrades for each living creature.
this explains humonoid ver 1 alpha, beta etc. .
Then finally after a couple million years he ended up with the final release. ourselves. living breathing creatures able to provide him with some form of entertainment.

whats so hard to understand.

species that didnt make it go extinct. there were numerous types of humanoids before we came about..it was all through trial and error..see which evolutionary step could flourish and our ancestor..(a former ape) made it.

They(we) kick the neandertals ass back into the extinction and all the other human wannabes. They became a wee bit smarter with the help of fire.. and became us.

quote:

Originally posted by weymouth I doubt because the assumption is that small micro-evolutionary changes, like a beak being a different size(a mutation that was beneficial), will eventually lead to a macro-evolutionary change in which the genetic make up of the birds will be completely different from each other. There just is no proof other than speculation that this will occur. Gradualism is not supported by the current fossil records available and if anything the fossil record supports stasis and then sudden appearances of new species rather than gradual changes being suggested in these articles.

Heehee you must live in DelAWARE

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa I believe in evolution; it has been irrefutably proven - but the common idea, at least what I have gathered from those who believe in the evolution theory, is that we actually came from apes. This in particular, I do not believe in.

Then it's just a simple misunderstanding on your part. The theory is that both modern apes and humans are different evolutions of a common anscestor, not that humans come from apes.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa All of these theories are frameworks to help us understand a larger picture that we simply cannot understand... at least, not right now anyway. I believe in evolution; it has been irrefutably proven - but the common idea, at least what I have gathered from those who believe in the evolution theory, is that we actually came from apes. This in particular, I do not believe in. Saying that the evolution theory is B.S. was a little harsh, I will admit, seeing as a lot of the basic premises that the theory is derived from, I believe to be true. It's pretty basic science and biology, (which, mind you, I suck at.) Anyway, with that said, I believe that we evolved from something similar to an ape, but not necessarily what we believe to be the common ape in our times now. AKA Lira, you are right. I do take it literal, as I believe it is the common conception amongst those whom believe in this theory simply to spite religious theories, that we are literally derived from apes. P.S. My rhetoric is lacking, (and I am sleepy,) so I apologize for my temperate explaining.

i completely agree, except that italians actually evolved from apes..... that is why they are so hairy

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