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Originally posted by squirrelly You're absolutely right. The crusades - passive. (Although that was "technically" Catholicism - all a branch of the same general principle) Split hairs if you must.

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Originally posted by Marc Summers Dumbass. I am resorting to calling you that because you fail to understand that I am talking about early christianity. When THEY were the ones being persecuted, and there wasn't corruption in the religion itself.

Ok, squirrelly, don't come in here ever again if you are not going to read. And anyone who knows christian history, knows that the Christians were completely passive in the beginning. If you knew christian history, besdies "THE CRUSADES" and "THE INQUISITION" you would completely understand that I was talking about the beginning of the religion. Get a clue.

And hitler never seemed liked a nice man. He also talked boasted about germany's potential for military prowess. From Beer Hall Putsch, to Hitler's rise to power in 1933, to the 1936 olympics, to the persecution of jews, to the holocaust. Everyone knew this. Go home.

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Originally posted by Temperate Ok, squirrelly, don't come in here ever again if you are not going to read. And anyone who knows christian history, knows that the Christians were completely passive in the beginning. If you knew christian history, besdies "THE CRUSADES" and "THE INQUISITION" you would completely understand that I was talking about the beginning of the religion. Get a clue. And hitler never seemed liked a nice man. He also talked boasted about germany's potential for military prowess. From Beer Hall Putsch, to Hitler's rise to power in 1933, to the 1936 olympics, to the persecution of jews, to the holocaust. Everyone knew this. Go home.

Did I not agree that in the beginning they were persecuted? You can't base all of your spoutings on an ENTIRE religion though based on a good beginning. Palistinians weren't oh so bad at one point too. My point is - there is no indication in any of your arguement that you're discussing the beginning. And the second part of your ramble would be validated if I did not SPECIFY the age I was referring to Hitler - 2.

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Originally posted by squirrelly Did I not agree that in the beginning they were persecuted? You can't base all of your spoutings on an ENTIRE religion though based on a good beginning. Palistinians weren't oh so bad at one point too. My point is - there is no indication in any of your arguement that you're discussing the beginning. And the second part of your ramble would be validated if I did not SPECIFY the age I was referring to Hitler - 2.

But I was comparing the beginnings of two religions. I never said that the christians were 100% innocent and muslims were 100% guilty. They all have their faults. They all have their moments of good merit. And they certainly have their moments of being persecuted. In fact, most religions throughout history have had grand political ploys in one time or another, that involved the exploitation of their beliefs.

And on that point about palestinians, they aren't "bad", take a look at their neighbors.

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Originally posted by Temperate But I was comparing the beginnings of two religions. I never said that the christians were 100% innocent and muslims were 100% guilty. They all have their faults. They all have their moments of good merit. And they certainly have their moments of being persecuted. In fact, most religions throughout history have had grand political ploys in one time or another, that involved the exploitation of their beliefs. And on that point about palestinians, they aren't "bad", take a look at their neighbors.

If you want to talk about "early history," Muslims were heavily persecuted and almost on the verge of annihilation. Many new converts were tortured and killed, including members of Muhammads family and his companions, especially after his uncle Abu Talib passed away. The had to migrate countless time to escape persecution and were pretty much chased down. The wars that did occur were in self defense for self-preservation, most of which occured because the pagan Arabs at the time broke countless treaties and truces. So no, Muslims were not the ones to instigate anything in "early history."

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oh bollocks. you cant compare to the last 600 years. well i suppose you can, but ill just ask which of these two religions do you think has made the transition into modernity more successfully?

Bollocks? you're such a wannabe pommie Before Benedict backtracked he seemed to think you can compare the two religions in the last six hundred years I believe contemporary Western society has shaped modern Christianity in that the Church has tried their best to keep up with the times as their target market becomes more educated and less credulous towards its pervading dogmas (nevertheless they still have another century or two to catch up to reality ) It's also an undeniable fact that poverty is one of the major causes of extremism, if the Middle East were free from tyranical dictators and enjoyed the same affluence, education, and prosperity as the West, would their religion more accurately reflect the changes Christianity has gone through in the last few hundred years? The "home grown" extremist / violent Muslims in Western countries are outliers and exceptions rather than the norm.

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Temperate On one hand, Christianity was spread passively. Through martyrdom and through the disciples spreading the word of Christ.

More accurately i think it was the Roman Empire (which of course was spread by the sword) adopted Christianity (a small Cult at the time) as the official religion of the Empire under Constantine who then syncretized Christianity with all the other major Pagan belief systems of that time.

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Trancaholic About the "tenth of the deaths" part of your post: Do you have any concrete statistics for backing this up? I would personally have guessed that the Armenian genocide, the Islamic conquests prior to the crusades, the Turkish conquests, and the recent events involving Sunni/Shia battles or the "war" in Darfur would boost the numbers of Islamic related deaths quite a bit? Are you counting the deaths due to Hitler and Stalin under the Christianity umbrella? So, until Muslims kill as many people as Christians have ever done, they should be exempt from criticism from any Christian? What about us non-believers: By the same token, shouldn't we be allowed to off a few millions of both of the camps before any of them can object?

You know nobody can ever prove ancient history with concrete statistics the original post was sarcastic and exagerated to address the "holier than though" attitude some here seem to be flaunting (you can add the "ethnic cleansing" in Indonesia, the Australian Aboriginies and Conquistadors to the list of woes directly and indirectly caused by religion) Seems like us non believers have alot of catching up to do, whats say we start with massacring those God Hates Fags wankers?

edit: sorry i'm being one of those Holy Atheist wankers

Nothing terribly interesting, but something some of you guys might be interested in knowing about.

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Muslim clerics reach out to Pope An open letter to the Pope from 38 top Muslim clerics in various countries accepts his expressions of regret for his controversial speech on Islam. But the lengthy letter carried on the website of Islamica magazine also points out "errors" and "mistakes" in the Pope's speech. The clerics' letter is due to be passed to the Vatican on Sunday. Pope Benedict sparked an uproar in September by quoting a mediaeval text which linked Islam to violence. He has not apologised for the speech delivered in Regensburg, Germany, but said he regretted the offence it had caused among Muslims. The clerics, who come from Bosnia, Croatia, Egypt, Jordan, Kosovo, Oman, Russia, Turkey, Uzbekistan and Iran, say they accept the Pope's "unprecedented personal expression of sorrow". Islamica magazine, which is based in Los Angeles, said the letter would be handed over to the papal nuncio in Jordan on Sunday.

Source: BBC

EDIT: And this:

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Muslims debate Pope's speech reaction By Magdi Abdelhadi Arab Affairs Analyst, BBC News Despite the predominantly emotional and angry response to the Pope's controversial remarks about Islam, some Muslim writers and intellectuals have been extremely critical of the way Muslims have responded so far. The angry reactions to the Pope's original remarks included the killing of an Italian nun in Somalia and attacks on Christian churches in Palestinian territories. But several Muslim writers argued that such violent reactions appeared to confirm the very things that Muslims have been seeking to refute. Some concluded that it would have been better to engage in a rational debate with the Pope. The European Muslim scholar, Tarik Ramadan, blamed Muslim leaders and scholars for such violent responses. 'Let off steam' Leaders who deny their people freedom of expression, he wrote, find it convenient to allow their people to let off some steam as long as it is about Danish cartoons or words uttered by the Pope. Mr Ramadan asks rhetorically whether it was wise of Muslims to feel offended by the Pope's quotation from a 14th Century Christian emperor while they continue to ignore questions they have faced over the past five years about the meaning of the term "jihad" and the legitimate use of force. Khaled Hroub, a Jordanian-born academic, wrote that the aggressive and intolerant reactions failed to live up to the ideals Muslims believe in. The Muslim reaction to the Pope's apology has also come in for a lot of criticism. Mr Hroub wondered whether Muslim clerics can ever be asked to apologise for believing that Islam is the one and only true religion. One columnist, Abdelwahab Al Affendi, ridiculed those who demanded a retraction of the Pope's original remarks. Mr Al Effendi wrote saying that nothing short of the Pope's converting to Islam will ever assuage the anger of those people!

Source: BBC

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