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-- How scary is this? New study finds 92% of Americans are religious
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Originally posted by metalgearsolid You need to use that little bugger too. You spelled necessary wrong. You slovenian pig!

Wont help, i use a slovenian version of MS Word, the little bugger only spellchecks slovenian words. I figure since he is from england and thus a native english speaker the bugger will work for him while i have to work on my english skills.

And you get points for a proper insult, I will also respond to "You pig from a country that looks like a chicken"

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd What exactly is scary about it? Well, being religious is a sort of a mental illness. For example, if people claim that they hear or see stuff that doesn't exist, or if they hold irrational beliefs, they are labeled as mentally ill, according to the DM-IV manual used by psychologists and psychiatrists in this country. I'm not saying all 92% hear or see or imagine non-existent things, but if 92% described themselves as religous, a sizeable number of Americans hold child-like beliefs. For example, the belief that Santa Claus exists is a child-like belief. The idea that animals have thoughts and ideas ("animism") is a child-like belief. What follows from this is that a sizeable number of Americans have the mentality of children. But since they are not children age-wise, this implies certain mental problems.

I've always loved that argument One can only be amazed how if you hear or see, or feel things that other people don't your a "nut", "delusional", "crazy", or in the case of DM-IV, schizophrenic. Yet religion, where you "feel" a connection to something most people cant feel, hear, or see, something thats "immaterial" or "untochauble" its all ok and it is not to be critisized. Another thing is how its been demostrated that people try to rationalize everything, and it would follow that god is just a rationalization of things we dont understand, yet people pay no attention to these new findings. Of course that is because of another point that has been demonstrated in studies, even when faced with evidence that would provide the outmost certainty, as im sure some of you would argue about not being able to know 100%, people will not desist from believing things that have taken root in their way of understanding things.

well this thread has jumped the shark

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Originally posted by josh4 well this thread has jumped the shark

i dont get what that means

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard That is about the most ignorant and arrogant statement I've read on these boards in a long time. Faith has nothing to do with intelligence. In many cases faith is a product of one's socialization, in others it is a choice. I defy you to show me some corrolation between faith and cognative function.

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Although there is little research directly linking IQ with levels of religiosity or spirituality,[2] research has revealed a negative correlation between religiosity and some variables usually related with higher IQ, such as educational level and scientific inclination

study

yeah, thats hardly the nail in the coffin but its the best we've got. a negative correlation between "IQ" and religious belief.

even if that study is bullshit, the things required to believe to consider yourself religious are a bit hard to swallow. i dont think being religious makes you stupid, however i think those with a lower IQ are more likely to be influenced by religious doctrine, as they arent as critical.

but feel free to read any of my other posts, theres WAY more arrogant comments floating around

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN study yeah, thats hardly the nail in the coffin but its the best we've got. a negative correlation between "IQ" and religious belief. even if that study is bullshit, the things required to believe to consider yourself religious are a bit hard to swallow. i dont think being religious makes you stupid, however i think those with a lower IQ are more likely to be influenced by religious doctrine, as they arent as critical. but feel free to read any of my other posts, theres WAY more arrogant comments floating around

This study is meaningless in generalizing to a population as the test group was;

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Seventy-seven University of California, Davis, undergraduate students....

Certainly not a large enough sample size to generalize to the University of California Davis campus let alone the US or humanity et al as you have done.

I agree with you in as much that people who exercise a higher level of critical thinking are more likely to reject religion. This is not, however, tantamount to saying that religious people are less intellegent let alone religion "makes you stupid." In fact, I would argue that in order for one to truely understand any religion and make sense of it (given the seemingly contradictory nature of all religions and the philosophical exploration of the subjects they address) one must possess a rather high level of cognative ability.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard This study is meaningless in generalizing to a population as the test group was; Certainly not a large enough sample size to generalize to the University of California Davis campus let alone the US or humanity et al as you have done.

haha, yeah well thats the only one i could find i did note it was possibly bullshit

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I agree with you in as much that people who exercise a higher level of critical thinking are more likely to reject religion. This is not, however, tantamount to saying that religious people are less intellegent let alone religion "makes you stupid."

i never said religion makes you stupid in a serious sense. i just like to bait but yeah, i find religious belief pretty illogical, and if youre gonna start believing in magic, youd wanna have a good hard look at it. and i dont think a lot of people do. and uncritical people with religion at their side are dangerous yes, generalisation, but thats just the impression ive gotten during my life.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard In fact, I would argue that in order for one to truely understand any religion and make sense of it (given the seemingly contradictory nature of all religions and the philosophical exploration of the subjects they address) one must possess a rather high level of cognative ability.

yeah, but dont try and tell me that a) many people "truly" understand any of it or b) understanding religion is inherently different from understanding any other "ism". you might as well argue "to truly understand liberalism you would need to possess a higher than average cognitive ability". meaningless.

obviously there are smart & dumb people of all persuasions but id still be willing to have a wager that your average creationist is a bit behind the rest of us sorry if thats a bit prejudiced, but we all have our faults

what of all the intelligence and talent wasted by really bright people who've spent their entire lives trying to disprove theories like Evolution and Copernican theory?

some of the smartest people i've ever met were complete fucking morons

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i never said religion makes you stupid in a serious sense. i just like to bait but yeah, i find religious belief pretty illogical, and if youre gonna start believing in magic, youd wanna have a good hard look at it. and i dont think a lot of people do. and uncritical people with religion at their side are dangerous yes, generalisation, but thats just the impression ive gotten during my life.

I would suggest that uncritical people with any belief they hold dear (be it religion or whatever) are dangerous, however, that is not the same as saying religion is dangerous. There is nothing inherently dangerous about religion if not for religion those persons would find something else to justify whatever it is they are doing.

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obviously there are smart & dumb people of all persuasions but id still be willing to have a wager that your average creationist is a bit behind the rest of us sorry if thats a bit prejudiced, but we all have our faults

I think you exhibit a bit of ignorance here. Very few Christians remain creationists today (despite Benedict). Moreover, Christianity is only one religion. If your argument for religious people being less intellegent then non-religious then you can't cherry pick one religion and worse yet one small segment.

You've lost a lot of credibility in my eyes; making general statements is bad enough but making them when you know they are untrue and unsupportable is even worse. If your position is that you believe those who are subscribers to the Abrahamic faiths' creation story are less intellegent then those that do not then that is what you should have stated. By stating an unsupportable position you just make yourself look bad.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I would suggest that uncritical people with any belief they hold dear (be it religion or whatever) are dangerous, however, that is not the same as saying religion is dangerous.

of course. and i wasnt meaning to imply that it was. however there are far more uncritical believers in god than any other belief system youd care to mention. religion has an elegant simplicity all its own that doesnt really test the faculties too much. theres a god, he loves you, obey him and be rewarded, be punished if you dont. thats religion in a nutshell. and since its theses cannot really be challenged, its got a pretty winning formula

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard There is nothing inherently dangerous about religion if not for religion those persons would find something else to justify whatever it is they are doing.

absolutely. the problem with religion however is that its ideas are almost timeless in their rigidity. you have people adhering to a belief system based on archaic ideas and without any capacity to verify the credibility of the authors or the context of their writing. again, religion possesses a unique quality when compared to other belief systems. ive never heard anyone say "oh, this is how it works because thats what marx said in das kapital" but we all hear whats wrong or right because of what *insert possibly ficticious religious figure here* wrote an eon ago.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I think you exhibit a bit of ignorance here. Very few Christians remain creationists today (despite Benedict). Moreover, Christianity is only one religion. If your argument for religious people being less intellegent then non-religious then you can't cherry pick one religion and worse yet one small segment.

firstly, there is no ignorance here. are there creationists? are they religious? do i think theyre stupid? dont try to put words in my mouth. tsk tsk.

secondly, thats not my argument. merely pointing a particular group out for examination under the "why i might not think highly of religious people microscope". btw there are plenty of sections of the christianity that still preach creationism. mormons & jehocah's witnesses as example. not that it matters, but theyre still about.

off the top of my head, the only scientists i see nowadays that id put in the same category as creationists, are the conspiracy theorists

its also interesting to note that youre obviously washing your hands of creationism here, because i dont see the (intellectual) difference between creationism and faith.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard You've lost a lot of credibility in my eyes; making general statements is bad enough but making them when you know they are untrue and unsupportable is even worse.

interesting point you make here.

all religions, in that they all rely on faith, fall into the "unsupportable" category. no evidence. none. so you cant have it both ways. a belief in something that cannot be proven = faith.

at least my argument is based upon experience with religious text or people or opinions or wars (whatever). religious adherents havent experienced god, they cannot prove his existence to themselves or others, they cant even say for certain which particular god is necessarily the real one- how is their "belief" somehow different and superior to my own?

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard If your position is that you believe those who are subscribers to the Abrahamic faiths' creation story are less intellegent then those that do not then that is what you should have stated. By stating an unsupportable position you just make yourself look bad.

no, that was never my position. just making fun of an obvious target on religion's side of the fence

to me, a belief in magic without any evidence to support it just doesnt make any sense. so yeah, i still reckon religion appeals to the weak of mind to a greater extent than those a little more capable.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd I AM freaked out by the 92%. Note that the respondents didn't have to say "Yes". If they held no strong opinions on the subject either way (as the majority of normal people outside America and the Middle East - this just isn't an issue in daily life), they could have responded "Not Sure". In the charts, if you remember, the Yes+No responses did not add up to 100%. In Sweden, 23% said Yes, 23% said No, and 54% said nothing. But the Americans said YES 92 times out of a hundred. They did not exercise the chance to ignore this contrived, politicized, abnormally blown-out-of-proportion concept that plays NO role in the daily life of most people around the world. Now that makes me very sad indeed. (Note that I haven't even begun to talk about the intellectual capacity of most Americans - I accept that most people everywhere are "intellectually average" and will not read scientific books by Darwin and Dawkins, but at least most people can be "mentally normal" enough (as opposed to "intelligent") to not consider this issue as anything important.)

Do you know anything about why so many Europeans came to the United States?
Religious oppression in the old continent was a very big part of it.


With such a precedent religious beliefs were firmly anchored in the American way of life and thinking from the start of the establishment of the colonies there.
The belief in God is something that is very much part of the culture even if most people are not dedicated followers.

Learn a little bit about your own history before passing off the rest of your country as a group of ignorant and mentally ill people.

Also the concept of mental normality not being conformed to concerning beliefs in evolution or what not in the United States is irrelevant in that particular country if the average person believes in another option.

Do you know even know what the word normal means?
It is the average way things are done meant or believed in a certain group.

Perhaps at a larger scale the US may be considered deviant from normality but I highly doubt it. Take the beliefs of nations like China India they would most certainly bring a counter balance the "age of enlightenment" of continents like Europe .... some of their beliefs are much more far fetched than Christianity ever will be.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN of course. and i wasnt meaning to imply that it was. however there are far more uncritical believers in god than any other belief system youd care to mention.

I'll give you that.

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absolutely. the problem with religion however is that its ideas are almost timeless in their rigidity. you have people adhering to a belief system based on archaic ideas and without any capacity to verify the credibility of the authors or the context of their writing. again, religion possesses a unique quality when compared to other belief systems.

My guess is you don't know a great deal about the worlds faiths. Both the Abrahamic and Vedic religous groups developed over thousands of years and a progression of ideas is clearly evident. These are not stagnet beliefs, they are living. They change and grow and adapt with the times. Christianity today is extremely different then that of a hundred years ago let alone two thousand, the same can be said for all religions. Additionally, there is a great deal of information available about the context in which the various scriptures of the various faiths were writen (especially christianity as the Romans were fantastic record keepers), in fact, most of the scriptures provide all sorts of context and background in and of themselves. As for challenging the credibility of the authors.... that is done constantly via philosophy, archeology, theologists, hell even the vatican is constantly researching records and testing biblical and parabiblical texts to determine their validity.

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its also interesting to note that youre obviously washing your hands of creationism here, because i dont see the (intellectual) difference between creationism and faith.

Creationism is routed in the belief that the story of Genesis is literal. Most Abrahamic faiths now recognize it as metaphoric.

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interesting point you make here. all religions, in that they all rely on faith, fall into the "unsupportable" category. no evidence. none. so you cant have it both ways. a belief in something that cannot be proven = faith.

Indeed, however, I do not pass my faith of as absolute knowledge nor do I belittle those that do not hold the same beliefs as you did.

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at least my argument is based upon experience with religious text or people or opinions or wars (whatever).

Your argument appears to be based on your experience with a handful of people and some limited understanding of one religion and some historical events hen-pecked to only include "evidence" that suits your prejudice.

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religious adherents havent experienced god,

Is that so? Presupposing god exists; What is it to experience god? How would one know whether or not they have experienced god? Do you know? How can you be certain one has not experienced god? How can you be certain you have not experienced god?

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i still reckon religion appeals to the weak of mind to a greater extent than those a little more capable.

I don't necessarally agree with you but you are entitled to your belief. I would like to point out, however, that many of the most capable persons in human history were religious individuals (many highly so). Of course this means nothing as it is anectdotal as is every argument you have advanced. Truth is we don't know whether there is a corolation between faith and intellegence thus your initial statement remains unproven and should you hold firm to it you are infact holding your very own religious believe (faith in something that remains unproven), therefore by your own logic, you are stupid.

Good day

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Originally posted by jdat Do you know anything about why so many Europeans came to the United States? Religious oppression in the old continent was a very big part of it. With such a precedent religious beliefs were firmly anchored in the American way of life and thinking from the start of the establishment of the colonies there. The belief in God is something that is very much part of the culture even if most people are not dedicated followers. Learn a little bit about your own history before passing off the rest of your country as a group of ignorant and mentally ill people. Also the concept of mental normality not being conformed to concerning beliefs in evolution or what not in the United States is irrelevant in that particular country if the average person believes in another option. Do you know even know what the word normal means? It is the average way things are done meant or believed in a certain group. Perhaps at a larger scale the US may be considered deviant from normality but I highly doubt it. Take the beliefs of nations like China India they would most certainly bring a counter balance the "age of enlightenment" of continents like Europe .... some of their beliefs are much more far fetched than Christianity ever will be.

Well, firstly, you do not need to teach me American history or culture, I know it far better than you ever will. (By the way, it's quite funny to listen to somebody living in France attempting to teach me the American way of life ) Even if you're American, you're not currently living here, whereas I am.

Next, be clear with your definitions of America. Last I heard from all the immigrant groups and lobbies here, America is the country of "freedom and diversity" whose identity is shaped by the immigrants who came here. Well, this is certainly a noble cause, I support it wholeheartedly, I am an immigrant myself.

Now you're telling me "Hold on" -- this country is actually defined by the identity of a single particular immigrant group, which came here due to religious persecution. I'm talking about the Puritans.

Actually, the people who came here for religious freedom are in the minority. Most immigrants, especially in recent decades, but not exclusively, came to America "in search of a better life." "The land of milk and honey." Sound familiar? Except there's no mention of religion here - the reasons were far more prosaic, i.e. economic. Look at all the Mexicans, did they come here for religious reasons? How about Poles and Italians.

Your argument now is that America is not really a diverse country of immigrants, it's an Anglo-Saxon Puritan country. You won't find a lot of people who agree with that, however.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd (By the way, it's quite funny to listen to somebody living in France attempting to teach me the American way of life )

It's also quite funny to hear an American telling someone that they cannot understand the way of life in places other then where they live.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Well, firstly, you do not need to teach me American history or culture, I know it far better than you ever will. (By the way, it's quite funny to listen to somebody living in France attempting to teach me the American way of life ) Even if you're American, you're not currently living here, whereas I am. Next, be clear with your definitions of America. Last I heard from all the immigrant groups and lobbies here, America is the country of "freedom and diversity" whose identity is shaped by the immigrants who came here. Well, this is certainly a noble cause, I support it wholeheartedly, I am an immigrant myself. Now you're telling me "Hold on" -- this country is actually defined by the identity of a single particular immigrant group, which came here due to religious persecution. I'm talking about the Puritans. Actually, the people who came here for religious freedom are in the minority. Most immigrants, especially in recent decades, but not exclusively, came to America "in search of a better life." "The land of milk and honey." Sound familiar? Except there's no mention of religion here - the reasons were far more prosaic, i.e. economic. Look at all the Mexicans, did they come here for religious reasons? How about Poles and Italians. Your argument now is that America is not really a diverse country of immigrants, it's an Anglo-Saxon Puritan country. You won't find a lot of people who agree with that, however.

You're correct in your analysis but given that those people arrived after puritan values where inherent to the culture, and given the fact that unless you have a massive wave of people coming at the same time, for example in one year a number equal to 20% of the population or more, people tend to blend with the existing culture not change it. So even if the population is not inherently puritan, the culture and values that are the cornerstone of the american culture are from puritan origins, so i side with jdat on this one.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard It's also quite funny to hear an American telling someone that they cannot understand the way of life in places other then where they live.

When it comes to culture and way of life, surely people who are in the country right now have more authority on what's going on? I'm not trying to teach him what France is like. Even though I've been there, I'm sure he knows more about it than I do simply due to living there currently.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Well, firstly, you do not need to teach me American history or culture, I know it far better than you ever will. (By the way, it's quite funny to listen to somebody living in France attempting to teach me the American way of life ) Even if you're American, you're not currently living here, whereas I am.

Please do tell me more as you seem to know so much about me

If you are so aware of the history why couldn't you take it into account as a means of explanation to the current situation.

Going for the "you don't currently live on US soil so plz shut your trap" low blow type statements do not bring anything of value in such discussions.
How many discussions here are about things taking place in foreign countries?
Next time you consider replying in one of these threads think twice as you may not be living there which automatically invalidates any knowledge or comments you may have on the situation
Shame on you.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Now you're telling me "Hold on" -- this country is actually defined by the identity of a single particular immigrant group, which came here due to religious persecution. I'm talking about the Puritans.

I talked about colonies and such ... which meant the first ones in a sense.
I realize things have greatly shifted since then but the historical background and it's influence is still very strong today especially in the political sphere.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Your argument now is that America is not really a diverse country of immigrants, it's an Anglo-Saxon Puritan country. You won't find a lot of people who agree with that, however.

I did not make such a statement but I was only going by the so called poll that freaked you out because of the religious beliefs that people have

I also constantly hear complaints from people like yourself ( I think ) saying that the religious class has way too much political clout in the United States hence you yourself are saying it is a bit of a Puritan country.
I am only going by what "you" tend to say.


If you don't agree with me about the reasons I gave as to why religious belief is omnipresent in the United States please offer me another alternative.

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Originally posted by venomX You're correct in your analysis but given that those people arrived after puritan values where inherent to the culture, and given the fact that unless you have a massive wave of people coming at the same time, for example in one year a number equal to 20% of the population or more, people tend to blend with the existing culture not change it. So even if the population is not inherently puritan, the culture and values that are the cornerstone of the american culture are from puritan origins, so i side with jdat on this one.

So now you're turning upside-down all these American ideals that Americans like to believe in. See, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you wish to tout the diversity-statue-of-liberty land-of-immigrants card, you must renounce the belief that America is essentially an Anglo Puritan country.

By the way, did you know that the descendants of these Puritan settlers currently make up a neglibly small percent of the US population?

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd So now you're turning upside-down all these American ideals that Americans like to believe in. See, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you wish to tout the diversity-statue-of-liberty land-of-immigrants card, you must renounce the belief that America is essentially an Anglo Puritan country. By the way, did you know that the descendants of these Puritan settlers currently make up a neglibly small percent of the US population?

It is not about thinking is it right or wrong for puritans to have "control" of the country this is about the 92% the why and the how.

And secondly I believe everyone is fully aware that they represent a small percentage of the current population but their historical influence greatly outnumbers them by far.

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Originally posted by jdat If you don't agree with me about the reasons I gave as to why religious belief is omnipresent in the United States please offer me another alternative.

My alternative;

The US is a rural, suburban country, with low population density; it does have some urban areas such as NYC and Chicago, but those are an anomaly rather than the defining fabric, unlike Canada and Europe, which are urban. As we know, rural people tend to be conservative.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd My alternative; The US is a rural, suburban country, with low population density; it does have some urban areas such as NYC and Chicago, but those are an anomaly rather than the defining fabric, unlike Canada and Europe, which are urban. As we know, rural people tend to be conservative.

That is very true, its why ppl in the chicago area are completly different from the ppl in Galena, IL. Some neighborhoods here though are very religious. That is probably cuz I live in the suburbs.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd My alternative; The US is a rural, suburban country, with low population density; it does have some urban areas such as NYC and Chicago, but those are an anomaly rather than the defining fabric, unlike Canada and Europe, which are urban. As we know, rural people tend to be conservative.

You are talking about the current situation without taking into account the historical background.


nice edit btw.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd So now you're turning upside-down all these American ideals that Americans like to believe in. See, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you wish to tout the diversity-statue-of-liberty land-of-immigrants card, you must renounce the belief that America is essentially an Anglo Puritan country. By the way, did you know that the descendants of these Puritan settlers currently make up a neglibly small percent of the US population?

I dont recall saying that the population of america is anglo puritan, but the value it cherishes such as hard work, freedom, capitalism, all derive from the beliefs that the puritans held and their work ethic. It is true that america is not defined 100% by these values, but in my opinion they are some of the most pervasive and influential in the american culture. I fail to see also how the values that are inherent in the culture because of its founders discourage or contratic the "iversity-statue-of-liberty land-of-immigrants card", since one of the beliefs the puritans held was that this land they came to was indeed open to others that were persecuted and oppressed. What youre trying to create is nothing more than a false dichotomy.

Mexicans are just as religious as Americans are. However, when polled, Mexicans believe in separation of church and state. Americans on the other hand want for public officials to start using more religion to be the deciding factor in decisions such as gay marriage, abortion, Military invasion(we wouldn't want to invade another country that has christian people as the majority, for that would go against the bible or some shit like that).

metalgearsolid. Next time you want to say a stupidity, please think twice before clicking the "go ahead" button.

Don't mind me, I'm a little drunk right now , I just wanted to point out that you often say rather stupid things. No offense to you personally - just an observation

Again, I'm pretty drunk, so firgive me for beign blunt

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