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-- Please Enter Here! (Importent)
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quote:

Originally posted by Arya I agree. I wish they could set aside their differences and do whats best for their people.

We all do, unforteantly one side can set aside their differences (Israel) and the other can not (Palestinians).

Just look at the recent Zinni mission.
We are talking about the two sides, just meeting with each other and talking. Lets take a look at their recent discussions via Zinni to find out what each side is doing in preperations to meet and talk with one another:

Israel: Ok, we give up on that 7 days of quiet thing. We understand it is to much to ask for you to just give is simple week of peace... I mean for god's sake Hanucah isn't that long, but yes we understand that you are bloodthristy and would like to kill us, were still willing to talk to you and try and find some solutions. Will you talk with us now?
Palestinians: No, of course we will kill you while we talk, but get out of Ramallah first before we can talk.
Israel: Ok, we got out of Ramallah, will you talk with us now?
Palestinians: No, you didn't move far enough.. get your tanks umm away farther.
Israel: Ok, we moved out tanks 'umm away farther', Will you talk with us now?
Palestinians: No, now you have to move out of all the Occupied Territories, even though we understand we both have legitimate claims to these territories.
Israel: No! Are you crazy?? You want us to move out and you won't even promise us quiet?
Palestinians: Hmm I see your point, Ok move your tanks out of Betlehem then.
Israel: Will you stop snipers shooting at Gilo if we do?
Palestinians: No.
Israel: I don't think we want to do it then.. Can't we just talk?
Palestinians: No, move your tanks out of Betlehem.
Israel: I see what your trying to do! Your trying to get us to leave all of the territories one city at a time.
Palestinians: Ummm no, no were not.. honest.. honest to Allah.
Israel: Really?
Palestinians: No.

And they STILL haven't even started talking. If the Palestinians want to talk while killing Israelis, they should not expect the Israelis to stop enforcing their own security. Geess..

Yoepus
Surrender your Beer, or we'll take it by force.

Are you a typoholic or something. Great post, but most peeps wont read those long posts.

At the rate this stupidity is going, the only time peace will prevail is when both sides are dead... Yes... All DEAD! I've lost count of how many times they had the so-called "Peace talks and agreements" that failed everytime. And the irony of it all.. the whole Middle East is a total cluster[beep], drench in so much blood in a holy land..

Excuse the melodrama, if you can see an ultimatum given, they'll smarten up real quick..

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus [B]You have a superiorly moral nation vs. a barbaric one

THAT MORAL SUPERIORITY STUFF IS WHAT THE NAZIS THOUGHT, AND WHAT THE JAPS THOUGHT WHEN THEY KILLED CHINESE, AND WHAT THE SPANISH CONQUERORS THOUGHT WHEN THEY SLAUGHTERED THE NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS. WHAT THEY DONT SEE IS THAT THEY WERE SO BLIND BELIEVING THAT SUPERIORITY STUFF THAT THEY DIDNT REALIZE THEY WERE ALSO BARBARIANS.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ-Kreing^^ And what are thoes kids doing there in the first place???? shouldnt they be at school or playing at home or whatever Dont they understand that they might get killed? i dont get it.... [/B]

They live in a different reality, a reality so hard (and different from yours and mine) that they are lead to such desperate actions.

AIM of this post: To question the real effect the Israel incursions have had.

Two random news sources:
MSNBC
Chicago Tribune

The palestinian side (from UK`s Observer)

TheStar
------------------------------------------------------

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zzleeper
[B]AIM of this post: To question the real effect the Israel incursions have had.

I'm glad you don't think infilitrating terrorist training grounds, arresting fellow scores of militia men, confinscating huge number of weapons, recieving vast ammount of intelligene regarding terrorist activities, and forcing the terrorist to plan ahead on where they will run next instead of where they will blow themselves up next is a success.

How foolish of me to ever think it might in some odd way be a suceess. Also as you can see it has already had its diplomatic value. Did you read the post above? God can only imagine what the Palestinians would have declared the Israelis do if they had already left the territories.

So perhaps they did not catch the terrorist leaders, however they are now on the run, with current incursions and disablement of their operations (as Arafat should have done) this will weakon considerably their effect and resolve on terrorism.

Any attempt to try and stop terrorism is an honorable one no matter if it succeeds of fails regardless. With talks proving themselves insufficient to resolve terrorism, and with Arafat's promotion of it, Israelis have little choice but to take matters into their own hand.

Yoepus

I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers.

quote:

Originally posted by zzleeper THAT MORAL SUPERIORITY STUFF IS WHAT THE NAZIS THOUGHT, AND WHAT THE JAPS THOUGHT WHEN THEY KILLED CHINESE, AND WHAT THE SPANISH CONQUERORS THOUGHT WHEN THEY SLAUGHTERED THE NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS. WHAT THEY DONT SEE IS THAT THEY WERE SO BLIND BELIEVING THAT SUPERIORITY STUFF THAT THEY DIDNT REALIZE THEY WERE ALSO BARBARIANS.

Wow! You probably worked on that post for hours. Your family's program of selective inbreeding appears to have resulted in success.

I guess you really went out of your way to reach such a ridiciolous conclusion! Moral superiority exsits, America is moraly superior to the Taliban and Al Quedia! America also actually thought they were morally superior to the Nazis (OH HOW EVIL THEY MUST BE BARBARIANS now those Americans!!).

You know why, the Israelis are morally superior to the Palestinians? Because I have indictated DOZENs of reaons why above in a LOGICAL RATIONAL argument, you on the other hand have used a stupid EMOTIONAL appeal based on just uther nonsense. Please think before you post.

Thank you,
Yoepus
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits

quote:

Originally posted by zzleeper They live in a different reality, a reality so hard (and different from yours and mine) that they are lead to such desperate actions.

You are very correct, they lived in an abused childhood as I said.. however the abuse is primarly forced upon them down their throat by their own leader who they follow unquestionedly (and they better or they get killed).

You are so right, the are 'lead' to such desperate actions, their mothers but a stone in their hands, kick them off onto the street and say.. go kill a soldier and don't come back till you do. (see emotional appeal just like yours, no logic behind it...)

Yoepus
I'm glad to see you - I didn't even know the circus was in town.

quote:

Originally posted by u4ea:[soulstar] At the rate this stupidity is going, the only time peace will prevail is when both sides are dead... Yes... All DEAD! I've lost count of how many times they had the so-called "Peace talks and agreements" that failed everytime. And the irony of it all.. the whole Middle East is a total cluster[beep], drench in so much blood in a holy land.. Excuse the melodrama, if you can see an ultimatum given, they'll smarten up real quick..

Dud! Where have you been??? They already tried your suggestions like a couple of times, 1948, 1967, 1973... And those ultimatum things never work either they tried those a ton too (1993, 1995, 1999, 2000, 2001...)

Guess will have to try something else.

Yoepus
What is a committee? A group of the unwilling, picked from the unfit, to do the unnecessary.

Re: Re: Please Enter Here! (Importent)

quote:

Originally posted by Trancewave I'm so pissed at myself for clicking that link. All I have to say is that is THE FUCKING LAMEST PIECE OF SHIT I'VE EVER SEEN!!! WTF! I don't confess to know everything there is to know about the conflict and I'm not going to take sides but for fucks sake DJ - Energy STOP FUCKING SPREADING PROPAGANDA BULLSHIT LIKE THIS TO THE FORUMS!!! There's atrocities committed from both sides here and people aren't stupid . You could easily find pictures to support the other side. Showing pics like these to garner support and sympathy for one side is rubbish. What you just did was incredibly lame.

Agreed

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy some of you guys just crack me up... all i can say is that even though israel is not perfect by any means they are moraly superior to the palestinians by a long shot. two reason 1) One side purposely targets innocent civilians and celebrates when this happens. the other side doesnt... although it happens that palestinian civilians are injured they are NEVER the target and if a case happens where they were killed unjustly an investigation happens and people responsible are punished for their actions. 2) one side is a democracy run by the will and voice of the people. the other side is a dictatoriship that runs in a totalitary way. i cant understand how you guys justify my first point and i would like someone to explain why you see that way. let me just say that if the USA would be targeted the way israel has by suicide bombings and machine gun frenzys in public then i bet you the world the USA would be all over attacking back. israel has the right to defend itself. even if that means going into towns and rounding up militiants. the world has a moral obligation to do all it can to stop countries/territories (palestine) or regimes (PLO) that harbour terrorism (terrorism = the direct targeting of innocent civilians)

The suicide bombings are a recnt phenomenon and are reactive as opposed to proactive...

I think you should stop watching CNN and get yourself satelite and watch programming from European or Mid East broadcasters because CNN is the most slanted media I have ever witnessed...the media portrays the handful of cheering Palestinians as morally corrupt and the 'defensive' Israelis as the morally superior. That is the biggest BS I have ever seen....it is clear that the media has chosen its side and tries to hard to bring us to make a judgement based on a small sample of the population. We should stop looking at these laughing children and thinking its twisted b/c it isn't. These kids know shit all...their parents cheer or whatever and tell their kids to do the same. Children are innocent until they become corrupt as adults...and I can see what is happening....Palestine is basically at its wits end...life without freedom from occupation is not worth living to them....you and I cannot really understand that living where we live...but these people have been kicked out of their homelands and given the shitty, unprosperous rocky lands....they cannot even hope for economic growth. The mentality is such: "Our lives suck, we have been kicked out of our own land and the whole world looks down on us and glorifies the people that oppress us...we might as well fight and die so that 'maybe' our children have something'. Thats a pretty bold generalization to make but I think its pretty fahkin accurate....and I don't agree with millitarism, but by the same token, this increased effort has actually gotten some attention to that side of the world where as in the past it was known what was going on but the US and every other nation watched as they fought their battles yet nobody gave a shit...now that they are actually a threat to the Israelis it has become a much more pressing issue...

Re: Re: Re: Please Enter Here! (Importent)

quote:

Originally posted by Lazgti Agreed

The link on the front of this thread is akin to pictures of family members mourning their loses, and seeing the dead bodies, of people who jumped out of the 90th floor of the World Trade Center. It is the truth, it is not propoganda, this link had almost brought tears to my eyes and made me feel sad, just as the WTC and any act of terrorism I have witnessed has.

Just because you have no morality to understand the losess and pains inflicted on the Israeli people in a war waged upon them does not make this untrue.

Yes you are right, you can see pictures of dead Taliban members, and Al Queda fighters.. as well as picutures of their tranining camps and indocterination process. It is very sad, when I see the pictures of the dead bodies of innocent Afghanies, or Palestinians for that matter. What makes me though even sadder is that those people were to dumb to rise up agains thier own repressive regiems to end their suffering before they had died.

My point is, just because you see pictures of dead people on both sides does not mean both sides are commiting atrocities. The pictures you see of the Israelis are of a war forced upon them, the pictures you see of the Palestinians are to their for you so the Palestinians may brainwash you into thinking sucidie bombings and terrosim are a realistic and good alternative to uprising to their own government.

So please stop with this propoganda BS. If you can't handle the truth, it is very sad. But this is the truth, so get used to it.

Yoepus
I would slap you but I'm not sure your brain could process the pain.

quote:

Originally posted by Lazgti The suicide bombings are a recnt phenomenon and are reactive as opposed to proactive...

Gee.. I am glad you actually took the time to read over all this thread. If you had done so you would have arrived at a logical conclusion already. Please read the whole thread as it already answers many of your untruths and misconcptons.

Read my LONG ASS HISTORY POST FOR ONCE!! It will answer all of these questions, Suicide bombings ARE NOT RECENT! They have their orgins before the exsitance of the State of Israel, back to the 1920s (agains reference my history post for correct time).

quote:

I think you should stop watching CNN and get yourself satelite and watch programming from European or Mid East broadcasters because CNN is the most slanted media I have ever witnessed...the media portrays the handful of cheering Palestinians as morally corrupt and the 'defensive' Israelis as the morally superior. That is the biggest BS I have ever seen....

If the media were not biased, they would not limit interviews with Israeli officals and Palestinian offical for the same time. Can you just imagine on CNN they have the Vice President, Chenny on interveiw, and then they tell him "Sorry Chenney we have to cut you off, we are trying to give the Al Quieda spokesman an equal ammount of time as to appear unbiased". Ya right.. dream on. I agree the media is very biased.. I disagree as to which way it slants, perhaps you should research more into this topic to find out the truths. Reading my history post will be a good start.

quote:

these people have been kicked out of their homelands and given the shitty, unprosperous rocky lands....

False! Again, take an hour read the history post.

quote:

and I don't agree with millitarism, but by the same token, this increased effort has actually gotten some attention to that side of the world where as in the past it was known what was going on but the US and every other nation watched as they fought their battles yet nobody gave a shit...now that they are actually a threat to the Israelis it has become a much more pressing issue...

Again this is false. Your militarism is terrorism I take it, call it by what it is. It would have no effect what so ever on Israel or the rest of the world for the matter (you wouldn't hear about Israel) if it weren't for the fact that Israel is a democracy with FREE PRESS. That is the only reason you hear about it.

I once wrote a thesis paper as why terrorism works, I concluded that you must attack a Free society for it to work. I had proved this using historical sources, and pointed out that you don't see any terrorism against dictatorships. I can post this here if you are interested in reading it.

Anyway, you basically are as factless and clueless about this issue as a horse, but you kick at it anyway. Please, try going over all the post, many people have made valid points and arguments for and agains the Israelis that you have already said, I made my best effort to explain the positions and the reality of the situation.

Yoepus
I would challenge you to a battle of wits.....but you are unarmed.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Wow! You probably worked on that post for hours. Your family's program of selective inbreeding appears to have resulted in success. I guess you really went out of your way to reach such a ridiciolous conclusion! Moral superiority exsits, America is moraly superior to the Taliban and Al Quedia! America also actually thought they were morally superior to the Nazis (OH HOW EVIL THEY MUST BE BARBARIANS now those Americans!!). You know why, the Israelis are morally superior to the Palestinians? Because I have indictated DOZENs of reaons why above in a LOGICAL RATIONAL argument, you on the other hand have used a stupid EMOTIONAL appeal based on just uther nonsense. Please think before you post. Thank you, Yoepus The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits

Yoepus...I have to disagree with your comments.

You talk as though you are so wise....you use alot of facts and figure but it does not take a scientist to cut through your clearly biased opinions...your facts are all clouded with opinions....you argue that you are using rationality...I don't think so.

Also, you indicated zzleeper is basically an idiot. Again I would have to disagree and this where I have a problem with Israel. They are in very serious denial of their aggression and barbarism. A point was made earlier about how Arafat is a great politician in that he has everybody in his hand. To an extent I agree since he is so opaque nobody can tell really what is going on with him....but Israel has the world at its mercy. Not to sound like a prick, but Israel has been and is a sucky baby all the time. The wrongs done to it are always somehow so attrocious or terrible and worse than those suffered by others. Grow up and stop bringing the past into the future. Even your earlier post alluded to how the Jews were oppressed evrywhere they went. Maybe its because in their nature all they do is whine. But I think its probably because religions wre attacked in general and not because they were Jews. I don't even want to tell you how many Orthodox Christians have been persecuted by Turks or Romans or whoever. Not to mention probably others but thats what I know so thats all I say. Israel is remarkable at making the world feel sorry for them and despite its transgressions always gets forgiveness from the US and its allies. Its bullshit that these moral superiority complexes make people beleive they are something they are not. You keep forgetting it is not terrorists vs. Israel its Palestinians and people now automatically assume Arabs and terrorism go hand in hand which is not right. Thanks to CNN and Israels crying this is the perception people have of Arabs. It really is a joke that you think the moral superiority comment was not relevant. It pretty much sums up perfectly the fact that your pages and pages of facts are ultimately just justifications of the fact that you think the Palestinians are inferior and they 'deserve' what they are getting.

Guess what only God decides what people 'deserve'. Bin Laden thought America deserved what it got. So too do alot of people unfortunately. Is it right, no it isn't. But its this kind of crap that causes these wars and ultimately makes people think they are right when they are not.

Sorry I meant to say the increased suicide bombing activity is recent. It is happening much more now than it did. My point is that now it has become an accepted warfare given its effectiveness. Do I agree with it definitely not. And not all Palestinians do either given they are not all muslim. It is a muslim practice to kill others in the name of allah if they do not accept Islam. I have some very heated opinions on that but I am not posting.

So you are telling me CNN is unbiased basically because they alot time equally?

Quality buddy not quantity...you even fool yourself with your cause that you cannot tell what bias is....

Lazgti....that was seriously one of the best posts...
I think you were able to analyze & describe some very good points.

quote:

Yoepus...I have to disagree with your comments.

I wish you could have done it with reason and fact. But oh well..

quote:

You talk as though you are so wise....

Who knows? It might just be true.. Could I actually be wise? No, never� what would I know about this whole Mid East thing.

quote:

you use alot of facts and figure but it does not take a scientist to cut through your clearly

Yes I agree with you 100%, It doesn�t take a scientist, apparently only an idiot.

quote:

biased opinions...your facts are all clouded with opinions....you argue that you are using rationality...I don't think so.

Did it occur to you that it might seem that these biased opinions are actually the conclusions we may reach using logical though by observing the facts and figures in context?

I love your little oxymoron though �you argue that you are using rationality...I don't think so.� I mean, LOL! Really? You don�t think so? That is like saying I disagree with all your scientific data because it makes me feel bad. It doesn�t make it untrue, it just says you can�t accept the truth.

quote:

Also, you indicated zzleeper is basically an idiot.

No, Zzleeper seems to be a much more rational individual then yourself, I implied that he spoke falsehoods, just as you do, but it appears that he is indeed eager to learn and listen to counter arguments. At least consider what I have to say. So if he�s an idiot.. I don�t even want to label you.

quote:

Again I would have to disagree and this where I have a problem with Israel.

Fair enough, I am not saying you should not question things.. and we all are entitled to our opinions, no matter how ridiculous they really are

quote:

They are in very serious denial of their aggression and barbarism.

Wow I am glad you are not throwing out sound bites, and actually proving your conclusions. Keep talking, maybe someday you'll say something semi-intelligent.

quote:

A point was made earlier about how Arafat is a great politician in that he has everybody in his hand. To an extent I agree since he is so opaque nobody can tell really what is going on with him....

Perhaps since there is no Free Press, and his own people are not allowed to freely citizen him?

quote:

but Israel has the world at its mercy. Not to sound like a prick, but Israel has been and is a sucky baby all the time.

I am glad that the Palestinians who always say �They bomb us with F16s and all we have are these poor lousy rocks to throw at them! Somebody do something!� Don�t come off whiney �sucky baby� at all.

quote:

The wrongs done to it are always somehow so attrocious or terrible and worse than those suffered by others.

Just because there is pain in other parts of the world, does not make the pain in the Middle East any lese severe.

quote:

Grow up and stop bringing the past into the future. Even your earlier post alluded to how the Jews were oppressed evrywhere they went.

Ok I can stop alluding to the past, if you will stop alluding to the past. I can say ok cut the scope down from 1993 till present day, I can still use this timeframe alone to reach my logical conclusion that Israel is a moral nation and the Palestinians are Barbarians.

quote:

Maybe its because in their nature all they do is whine. But I think its probably because religions wre attacked in general and not because they were Jews.

Maybe we should avoid these racial generalizations and stick to the conflict at hand. Saying how the Jews want to take over the world, are fat, and lazy, and whine to much has no place in this conflict. At the same point I can say how all Arab and Muslims are filthy bloodthirsty idiots, but I do not since I do not believe in racial generalizations. I believe we are all human, and therefore able to think for ourselves and do not need racial stigmas to tell us how to behave. Perhaps if you weren�t so anti-Semitic and keep an open mind to the Israel side of things you might learn something.

quote:

I don't even want to tell you how many Orthodox Christians have been persecuted by Turks or Romans or whoever. Not to mention probably others but thats what I know so thats all I say.

Ok, so now you are saying other people have been persecuted a lot too� and umm therefore the suffering the Jews had when they were persecuted was no less? I�m glad you pointed this out to me.. I was clearly unaware that people are being persecuted around the world in other places (primarily by Muslims).

quote:

Israel is remarkable at making the world feel sorry for them and despite its transgressions always gets forgiveness from the US and its allies.

Really?? Is Israel really that good in making the world feel sorry?? Then how come the first post on this thread didn�t make you feel sorry, and how come the Palestinian cause and the horrible things they have done are not making you feel sorry?

The world is at an anti-Israel biased, they had since they became the winning side after 1967. How come the UN the voice of the world then has passed more humanitarian, and general resolution voicing concern against Israel. If you look at the UN all they basically do is just stamp out resolutions condemning Israel.. But I don�t want to get into this. After all, I have never said Israel is perfect, but it is far from many other places in the world and their repressive treatments. Many Arab countries who do much more to oppress their own people have never heard a peep from the UN� kinda strange huh?

quote:

Its bullshit that these moral superiority complexes make people beleive they are something they are not. You keep forgetting it is not terrorists vs. Israel its

Dud I never said it was the terrorist vs. Israel.. I always made my remarks to include the Palestinian people. Perhaps you should try reading for a change eh?

quote:

Palestinians and people now automatically assume Arabs and terrorism go hand in hand which is not right.

Well I�m glad how their has never been any stereotyping of Arabs as terrorism. Why would someone go do something like that?? I mean its not like Arabs seem to be the guys doing the terrorism.. oh wait never mind.

In my post I compare the Palestinian Struggle v. The Israeli Struggle.. Just like not all Israelis are �military war crime atrocity committers�, not all Palestinians are �terrorist�. I never said in any of my arguments, you are Palestinian therefore you are a terrorist or vice versa. Don�t try to make this into something it is not. It is not a ethnic thing, I have not based any of my arguments solely on religion or race� as opposed to you.

quote:

Thanks to CNN and Israels crying this is the perception people have of Arabs.

Ya.. Damn Israel! Damn CNN for broadcasting the World Trade Center attack thing.. and all those terror attacks committed on Israel! Shame on them! How evil! I never heard once on CNN that all Arabs are terrorist or all Muslims are hijackers.. gosh which CNN are you listening too? Apparently not the Arab-biased Ted Turner one I am.

quote:

It really is a joke that you think the moral superiority comment was not relevant.

The jokes on you, I do think it is relevant. DUH I am saying ISRAEL GOOD, PALESTINIANS BAD (in the context of the conflict between them of course).

quote:

It pretty much sums up perfectly the fact that your pages and pages of facts are ultimately just justifications of the fact that you think the Palestinians are inferior and they 'deserve' what they are getting.

I never said that, I think the Palestinians should up rise against their leader and they will easily solve their problem. All I am saying is that the Palestinians deserve THE REACTION from Israel they are getting. And if my facts based on reality, and the conclusions based on these facts point to a truth.. well hmm I just might be on to something?

If you do not think Israel DESERVES the right to defend itself, then there is something terribly anti-Semitic and stupefyingly wrong with you.

quote:

Guess what only God decides what people 'deserve'.

Which God is that one? Allah.. Buddha?... Zeus? And what if I don�t believe in any good, what then? What do I deserve then?.. but that�s a different thread. I have not based my arguments on religions, and find it an emotional appeal not a logical one.

quote:

Sorry I meant to say the increased suicide bombing activity is recent. It is happening much more now than it did. My point is that now it has become an accepted warfare given its effectiveness. Do I agree with it definitely not. And not all Palestinians do either given they are not all muslim. It is a muslim practice to kill others in the name of allah if they do not accept Islam. I have some very heated opinions on that but I am not posting.

I�m glad you don�t post what you really think.. since if the above few posts were any indication it wouldn�t make much sense anyways. I�m sure you meant to say an increased suicide bombing activities.. ya right of course you did. Well all I can say the Palestinians have constantly done a suicide campaign against Israel since before 1993. The only time of relatively quiet was under Netanyahu who took a hard-line Israel Security first, peace next approach. Sharon tried to follow this approach. One can only think of the horrors we would have witnessed if he didn�t.

quote:

So you are telling me CNN is unbiased basically because they alot time equally? Quality buddy not quantity...you even fool yourself with your cause that you cannot tell what bias is....

So are you telling me you can�t read or understand an argument? What part of �I agree the media is very biased.. I disagree as to which way it slants� Do you not understand exactly???
I have clearly said the media is very biased.. do you not understand this?
Yoepus
You remind me of opium, a slow working dope.

I am not stupid I am impatient....I do not feel like reading your 4000 pages of prose. Your facts are clearly laced with metaphor and fluff. I am not doubting the existence of valid information there, I am saying it is too laborious to cut through the clearly opinionated words. My problem is with how you offerred an objective account of the matters being discussed, in the end we have a clearly opinionated account not worth anymore than mine or other posts which only generally describe one's feelings regarding the situation. But out of curiosity may I ask where you have educated yourself so I could assess the source of your data? Just curious I would like to know.

Also, I did not claim that the pictures were false or not attrocious. That is not at all what I claimed and if you were not so self absorbed you would realize the pictures were not meant to portray a truth as you have said it was meant to lower one's perception of the Arabs and strengthen the case of the Israeli cause. That is fine, my prob is with the fact that you indicated it was not for the purpose of slandering the Palestinians yet you indicated in countless posts in a very matter of fact tone that the Palestinians are clearly the bad guy in all of this. The truth is only someone far removed and with no motives for choosing one side or another can say who is right or wrong here...you are pro-israeli and others are pro-Arab. We cannot determine right as our opinions flaw our objectivity. In either case it is pointless since the troubles have escalated to a point as I mentioned earlier, the Palestinians beleive they have nothing to live for if they cannot live in freedom. They are past the breaking point, and it is clear from surging number of increase suicide bombings and civilian violence that the Palestinians clearly are desperate, even a dolt can recognize that they clearly feel they got the short end of the stick. Even if they are the bad guy in all this, they clearly do not beleive this is the case (I personally do not think its so cut and dry as you have made it out to be). So if Israel would stop acting like the victim and since they are so 'civilized' and 'democratic' and 'nurturing' why do they not address the concerns and at least hear out the other side instead of popping caps in civillians and running ambulances off the roads.

Summary: There have been cheap low blows by both sides for sure, my point is that if you post pics showing the hurt and anguish felt by Israelis pics of Palestinians in a show of anguish should be shown as well.

Look Lazgti, I can't help you uncover the truth if you refuse to take a minute of your time to actually for once learn about the situation.

The Arabs do not like to mention the history of the mid east at all, since it delegitimizes their claim, and reinforces the Israeli position. History is one, there can not be two histories on this earth. Just like the Nazi's were preaching a different history of their own, superiorfying their 'race' it does not mean it is true.. and the fact that the Allies understood the orgins of their people, the middle ages, the crusades, the roman empire, etc.. Does not make it incorrect. The history I stated can be validated by many artifacts, historical records, and archives with legitimate and recongized authority regarding the matters. Those taught in the Palestinian schools have no such facts.. they simply state emotional appeals just like you without the proof to back it up.

I do not deny that I have used emotional appeals, or that the facts I have included support my opinion. I do now latter in the thread get straight to the opinion, as if you have read through my previous posts you can see the logical rational behind my opinions which are the conclusions of facts.

But here, I know you are impatient so I will simply the matter for you.

The image above sums up why indeed the Israelis are good, the Palestinians are bad (according to the definitions of the good and bad stated in previous post).

The problem is this; the Israelis do want peace. The Palestinians do not want it (or they want it but can not under current leadership). The proof to this is the Israelis have changed their PM many many times all with different attitudes and policies regarding the crisis, all of them have not been able to achieve peace, all repersenting the Israeli people... who are like all people in a free democracy, peace loving. On the other hand we have only had one leader on the Palestinian side, that has been only once 'elected', and with no elections up coming or an opposition party their can be no voice against it.

I am very glad that the Palestinains have decieded to approach and finally enter cease-fire talks now a days, I am glad the situation is cooling down. I do not like to see innocents getting killed on either side, however I fear, using my past observation of history, that when the International pressure disappears.. when the conflict is no longer in the spotlight that Arafat will once again stop the ceasefire and resume an intensified terror campagin.

It is unfortunate that Arafat has been known to break his promises, itis unfortunate that we can not trust him anymore, but it is the sad reality.

Yoepus
Revolution, n. In politics, an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.

Hi, Here i am, back on track Had a busy week and thus no time for replying. First let me tell you that I appreciate your, you could almost say, enthusiasm in that discussion. I can totally relate to you , since i have also talked people to death in the past 2 years as i realized that hardly no1 knows the "truth" or at least the "other side". In those 2 years i havent only leanred a lot about the conflict itself, its history, the current situation and its psychological background, I also analyzed the critic's attitudes and motives, their structure of argumentation and their intention. Its very funny to find out that in fact there are only a few types of israel-critics that can be easily studied. In many cases, after hearing one two sentences, I know exactely who im dealing with, what ansers to bring and what his reaction will look like. I guess that u have experienced the same in yout "fight for justice"
Who critisized Israel and how? Its odd enough that this conflict is so omipresent in the media (as u already stated this can be explained by Israel's free press, but its not only that) but why do so many people really care and take sides?
Well in my opnion the flollowing people will "care" and raise their voice against Israel: Extre-right wing ppl (antisemites), Extreme-left wing people(in my opnion as bad, if not worse due to their hyprocraty) who pretend to fight for the "weak and oppressed" against "injustice and imperialism", In many cases the latter type of critic pretends to be an Anti-zionist only, but only hides behind this much more comfortable word in order to express anti-judaitisc views (yes, some "lefties" are as antisemitic as neo nazis, look at communist russia for example). Then there are the people who dont think too much on their own and just rely on the media's views. They see kids fighting tanks and immediately side with the "underdog". Another stereotype is the European who, out of his complex towards Jews(based on the tragic history), will be on the Jew�sh side (thinking that he owes them something). But exately this kind of person could also seek for a way out of this complex by compensating his bad conscience with an attitude of "look what those jews are doing. they arent angles themselves. The arabs are the Nazi's second victims..". Last but not least there are the religous protestant fundamentalist wholl side with the jews since he belives in the "god given land" anf of course the fool who wants to impress a hot chick by discussin politics
About your way to discuss this tricky problem...I think your argumentation is based on the justification of the Israeli side only, without any proposal or sythesis as for the solution of the conflict. Because if want to make peace, you'll need the other side as well. By calling them BAD (in your comparing kind of context as well) you wont find any way out of the current dilemma. However, somtimes your kind of argumentation is necessary, especially in the case of the stereotypes mentioned above. They dont want a solution either, they just wanna judge, not think, just flame and close their eyes to any alternative. I agree to all of your facts, they are nothing new to me, and i use them alot too but then again...they wont help in certain situations.

The settlements. As i said, u look at it in a too rational way. Let's admit that the middle east conflict is no chess game, logics have disappeared a long time ago. This war is enormously emotionalised (on both sides). There are still discussions about the interpretation of the Geneva Cpnvention going on, so its not SO clear. One argument is for example that the fact that the settlement was planned organized supported and carried out by the governments means that you COULD see it as a "deportation" as well (since the convention doesnt say a word about whehter the settling has to be voluntary or not). But then again, this whole debate is irrelevant. Let's take the settlements in the Gaza strip for example. Imagine living in the Gaza strip, the most populated place on earth, no job, swimming in shit and urine, on a hot day...and then u see those beautiful white houses, surrounded by tanks, where little children jump into swimming pools.(Note: I dont blame Israel for this miserable life conditions, well not totally) Will you care about the Geneva Convention? Or the fact that Oslo DOES implement the possbility of the settlements expansion? Or will ya get mad at some point? The average Palestinian suffers, BUT! then again i say that violence has got NOTHING to do with their frustration. THAT is for me a lame excuse and cheap arab propaganda. The ppl ARE frustrated, the terror acts, however, are precisely planned "military strikes". Its is the people behind this terror industry that i condemn(those responsible for religious brainwashing, those who pump them up with hatred--Arafat with his propagandistic TV programm as well--, those who take care of the logistics, who arm them etc, etc.)not the bombers themselves.
For the sake of peace, assuming that u need exactely those poor guys for making it, i wouldnt support an expansion of the settlements, may it be juristically justified or not...Sounds stupid but: Who gives a fuck?
About your point of "putting pressure on them, showing them that time's against them"..I i follow ur argumentation, the more peaceful i am, the more settlements i should build...Look at the political landscape and tell me whos in favour of settlements, and whos the one shouting "peace now, give them all we got" correct. it's a nice explanation, does have point..but its not convincing. After Israel isnt in some political vacuum. The world as biased as it may be, does want to have an Israel, and if it is only since they dint want those Jews in their own country..

"I am not saying Israel is Good, I am saying Israel is Good and the Palestinians are Bad. See I am comparing Israel to the Palestinians and deciding. "

That is what i wanted you to say in the first place (in my previous posting) since it gives us more credibility.
..you say Israel made x but the Palestinian's y is much worse. Okay, that might be true, but Id prefer if we looked at ourselves only. What can WE do in order to deescalate? I once again referr to the "constructive middle east discussion" not the "defending" one

"Secondly, you conclude that Israel must evacuate all Jewish settlements before a final peace agreement cam be achieved with the Palestinians. This is wrong, since this is where many settlement critics imply that it would be better for peace if the West Bank were Judenrein (empty of Jews). "

Show me where i wrote THAT!? Dont exaggerate or let yaself go in paranoia...I never talked about ALL settlements! Firstly i think the expansion during the peace process was a contraproductive "betrayel" an abuse of trust (in THEIR eyes, but we HAVE to accept or at least understand that view!) Secondly..i think that most of the settlements should remain, maybe the should be put together to a few "blocks" (Less streets--> land confiscating necessary etc.) Thirdly i wouldnt miy nazi words such as Judenrein(which i have heared a LOT in that settlement-issue context) with the Israeli- Arab conflict. Makes us look paranoide..IMO

About Hebron etc...Again: Comparing is a sign of weakness.


As for the checkpoints: Yes i agree, no soldiers lets some pregnant woman die intentionally. Again this provokes hatred but in this case its all due to Arafat's politics, his Intifada, his mistake!

Well the Beduin and Arab situation isnt THAT bad (some fanatics like the jewish anti.semite Chomsky call it apartheid but well...) but must be improved. According to some surveys Beduins identfy more with the Palestinian side and are against the zionist country.


"Although, I never still understand what their problem was living under Israel" I do. The Russians could have said the same about us a 100 years ago. Every people wants self determination, may it be the Curs, us or some Tibetians!


I rpeat that what we can do right now is just sit and wait, an dkeep the losses of both sides on a minimum..yeah

Hello Trancegiant,

I am glad to see your post. I know how it can be when you are busy and it takes a while to reply, but you did none the less thats GOOD haha.

I have no problem into switching into 'resolution' mode. I think almost all but the most fanatically extreme Israelis understand that the Palestinian conflict has to result in the creation of a Palestinian 'state', or autonomy in most the territories of the West Bank and Gaza. I won't disagree to this, I have my own solution to the current problem.

And now that we have gone through the historical facts, and at least understand both sides (as I know most did not understand the Israeli side, and I made my best effort to show it... The Palestinian side exists, and Israel does recognizes their claims to certain territories within Israel as well, Decleration of Priniciples 1993) I have no problem to go after the solution.. what should happen now?

I'll agree with you regarding the settlement issue, indeed more right wingers support it.. however I do consider the Mid East conflict a game of chess, I view it in logical move results in counter move, and what is your next move... You start with a certain number of pieces and you have to use them wisely. Although you believe the conflict has fallen into illogic (which I'll agree with) I will still state that this 'game' at the levels it is being played is less emotional then I think you imply. I think the settlements altough they are very contreversial, and I have no doubt some will be removed with the recreation of a Palestinian autonomy, play an important role limiting the timeframe. Israel is barely above 50 years old, and we have to remember our history with Jewish soverign kingdoms after this timeframe is like 0-3 for more the 150 years so the odds are against us here.

The problem I have though with your thinking is that of the view of the Palestinians.. the example you gave of ppl living in the shit-hole that is Gaza and then observing the beautiful settlements nearby. If I were those Palestinians I would be so pissed off at my government for not allowing me the same opprotunities the Israelis allow themselves.. They should understand they are in their own dominion, if they are uncontent in it they should voice their concern to their repesersentative, and failing that perhaps result to revolution. Instead they are apathetic and do noting.. brainwashed by those who they listen to.

The reason I had concluded though the Good and Bad arguments in my previous posts (and by the way I had defined Good and Bad before.. and I defined it in comparison terms.. but oh well) is because it brings you to understand that their can be no negotiations with the current Palestinian regieme. Like I said in one of the other points.. I hate it when they say "There is no military solution to the problem", when I hear people say that.. I sometimes get that childlike instinct, when you say don't do that.. you go ahead and do it just to prove that you can. But the difference here is that I believe it is ESSENTIAL. All I know is there is currently no POLITICAL solution to the problem". The problem I have concluded lies in the Palestinain regieme, we have witnessed the the Palestinians lack the desire, means, or will to change their regieme on their own. This regieme has engaged a war of attrition upon Israel, the historical solution of Israel when war of attritions were declared upon it was WAR. I do believe that a full-scale military re-occupation of the territories followed by the expulsion of fanatics and trouble makers, re-instigation of temporary Israeli rule, suplemented slowly with local self-rule and the eventual established meant of a DEMOCRACTIC Palestinian autonomy in 97% of the territories, with Jerusalem not as their capital (it remains in Israeli hands, under Muslim.. or Israeli-Arab local administration), and a 'formal' right of return for the palestinians.. that say will not allow more then 10,000 actually into Israel. The autonomy will be an entirely demiliterized zone (free access to roads and such as indicated in previous treaties) with the autonomy only able to enter economic treaties with other countries, no political treaties (this prevents war alliances and mutual defense pacts and such).

Only that, when Israel takes control, institutes real education and stops propaganda, and educates this generation very good and smartly, since this is the generation that will lead Palestine to self-determination.

Anyway.. its like 3am so I might not have explained it good.. I will look it over in the morning as well, feel free to post any comments in meantime though.

Yoepus
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

surprise surprise
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...he_mideast_fire

You are a blatantly ignorant fool Yoepus...first of i dont see how you cant say CNN is based, the bloody host on Hardball (a segment on CNN where they bring in officials of each side) ...on every showing i have seen always aggrees with the views of the israelis. And secondly i would just like to make an observational statement also based upon "fact", The popualtion of the palestinians far out numbers the population of the Israelis, The US will soon "wash it's hands" of the shit it has gotten it-self into and leave the whole palestinian/israeli war in a fvcking mess. Do you think the israelis will win???? a palestinian war??

1.I dont think so beacuase if they killed alot of them their image would be forever stained before the whole world as killers.

2. There are tons more palestinians than israelis and if the Israelis decide to kill Arafat, then the whole situation will be far more worse and the palestinians will be out of control and cause utter chaos for israelis.

so i leave this converstaion (hopefully) telling you israelis and your asshole of a leader Ariel Sharon, that you better weigh all your options in this war, and see what can be done about a palestinian state, becasue in my opinion....This is a war you cannot win.

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