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Posted by LoginZ on Mar-21-2002 08:50:

You know i was talking about our capacity to talk english and the capacity of english not to speak french and to find almost abnormal that we have a bad english. That was my only point.

Unique point.

I do really appreciate the americans and the american way of life, as far as i know it and of my dream is to go to california to see SF, LA and San diego. So, i'm definitely not an anti-american. Jos� BOVE is not the France and i'm not Jos� BOVE and i'm not talking to you about the Protection policy of bush on Steel industry in a world of liberalism....

Yeah, i know that wasn't your point.

Me either for your post.

But, you should have spent time in the worse district of Paris, i'm really sorry for you if it was the case but i would not decently go to some bronx-like district in U.S if i wasn't from there. Cos really in Paris you can go from a wonderfull place to a weird, dodgy one in less than 5 min.

But it does surprised me anyway, you have to remember also that in France to say hello to a girl even an unknown one you give a kiss. I've frighten so many american girls cos' of that before knowing it, and almost getting into fight with their jealous boyfriend.

Code, behaviour are differents, it depends where you are from...

Else, believe me, we don't do english when not necessary i mean you have heard two french guys talking in english for fun in an french restaurant ? Well, that's not common indeed.

But, ppl that were coming to you saying "we don't speak english" sounds much more normal...

All this sounds to me more as a "Lucy in Sky with Diamonds" tale than a trip to Paris...

The truth is out there.

Posted by Miss Proximus on Mar-21-2002 09:42:

quote:
Originally posted by extulas
Americans ARE NOT welcome in France.

NOR in Holland

2 Biz: I'm not judging Americans and Englishmen based on their internet-language cuz DOH! everyone knows that different from what you normally speak/write...but...

when I see you guys writing whings like definately and quiet instead of quite and wich instead of which and my list is MUCH longer....that just makes me very suprised!! and i wonder...how can you people talk about onther people's english when you're having trouble with it yourselves

Oh yea....must be because, no matter what, you're the best at everything anyway (you in general biz)

Posted by Ian on Mar-22-2002 11:03:

English is spoken in many countries cos its simple to learn but its not the most fluent language in the world, I believe Portuguese is and that language scares me, looks so hard to learn

Over here theres so many variations of english and noone actually speaks proper english except for some 'posh' people. We all have our own slang and it can get mixed up, for example I lived in Nottingham and if u cobs (bread rolls) are called Buns. Over here, like 1 hour away if I asked a woman in a bakery to see her buns she'd slap me round me head.... The American english also makes me laugh, cos theres words we dont use and they don't know all ours, like Arse, a simple word, I said it to my american friend and she had no idea what I was on with. I think its an easy language to use though, but the variations can be quite funny. Over here we're oblivious to other languages and I didn't even start german or french till I was 11, now I'm fluent(ish) in german and don't get french much, Spanish is also handy to use for holidays in Ibiza or the med or canaries... especially the following words

Yo no dorm� con su hija - I did not sleep with your daughter

Ponga todo el dinero en notas no secuenciales en la bolsa y se apresura - Put all the money in non-sequential notes in the bag and hurry up

�Tiene usted VD? - Do you have VD (this one is in a phrase book I got last year)

Posted by tu_face on Mar-22-2002 15:09:

they use english on all the trance names and stuff for the same reason we use english in here... most places in europe u get taught english from an early age at school.

Posted by PVD_S11DJ on Mar-22-2002 15:22:

quote:
Originally posted by tu_face
they use english on all the trance names and stuff for the same reason we use english in here... most places in europe u get taught english from an early age at school.

thanks for reelin' this thread back into focus tu_face

Posted by Renegade on Mar-22-2002 16:58:

Hey, I really enjoyed reading this thread.

Just a few quick things before I go to bed:

Firstly, I have studied four languages (excluding English) in my life time: French (for four years), Indonesian (for two years), Italian (for three years), Japanese (for two years). It was only compulsary at my school to learn languages for the first two years of high school (years 7 and 8) at my school, and after that, while they did encourage the continued learning of languages, few did. It's just part of the culture in the English speaking world: chances are we're not going to need to speak these languages again, so many of us just choose not to continue learning them. Well, that's the situation from an Australian perspective anyway. I can hardly remember how to speak any of these languages now, apart from a few basic phrases (with the exception of French where I can only hold down a simple conversation) and I regret do regret it now. I would love to be bilingual, just from a cultural perspective.

quote:
An indeed, French is awfull to learn in my opinion, isn't it hard all this particular things, so many irregular stuff you need to remember. Oh Yes, it is, if if i takes you lot to get it, consider it takes a lot to get english too.

I will agree entirely mate.

English, for me, would be the hardest language to learn in the world. If you can master it then it's probably the best language to communicate with (due to the immense vocabulary - greater than any other language I'm lead to believe - as well as the complex gramatical structure which allows you top convey ideas with an unparelelled degree of specification). At the same time though, the things which make English such a good language for communicating with, must make it so difficult to learn.

Of the languages I've learnt, French would easily be the hardest. People would think that Japanese would be the hardest, simply because there's not just one, but two different alphabets to learn. But, the thing is, once you've memorised the characters, it's a doddle. The vocabulary is relatively small and the grammar is incredibly straight-forward and simple. If I'd studied Japanese for as long as I'd studied French I could probably speak it twice as well. And Indonesian is just as simple to master in terms of grammar and vocabulary, except it uses the English alphabet. Quite the cinch.

But the thing is, even though French was difficult, the language is far more straight forward when compared to English. The hardest part of French to master is the conjugation and grammatical structure (which is what they spent basically the entirity of the fourth year teaching) but the thing is, as I've come to realise, the conjugation in English is far more complex, and the grammatical structure is infinately more complex (in French you can only say "Je suis James" - "I am James" - but in English you can say "I am James", "James I am" and "James am I" and it means exactly the same thing). And it's the same with any other sentence you care to think of in English: it's far more maleable (you can structure the same sentence in a number of different ways) but at the same time less consistant, and thus harder to learn. Just a thought.

quote:
when I see you guys writing whings like definately and quiet instead of quite and wich instead of which and my list is MUCH longer....that just makes me very suprised!! and i wonder...how can you people talk about onther people's english when you're having trouble with it yourselves

Haha, yeah I'd agree with that.

I can remember vividly watching the premier league one night, where they interviewed Andy Cole and I couldn't understand a bloody word he was saying, and then they interviewed Jaap Stam and he spoke English perfectly, with virtually no accent. Absolutely flawless. And I know I'm selecting a pretty unusual example here, but it's kinda representative of the way different cultures approach learning new languages: I'm always suprised by how well the people from non-English speaking countries on this board are able to speak the English language, and always disappointed by the way I forgot the languages I learnt the second I left the classroom. Oh well, c'est la vie. (<-- that was French by the way guys. I can still speak it see? Well? Did you see that guys? Did you? DID YOU? )

Anyway, that's it. Time for a cig and a bed me thinks.

Posted by biznology on Mar-22-2002 19:33:

quote:
Originally posted by Miss Proximus

NOR in Holland

2 Biz: I'm not judging Americans and Englishmen based on their internet-language cuz DOH! everyone knows that different from what you normally speak/write...but...

when I see you guys writing whings like definately and quiet instead of quite and wich instead of which and my list is MUCH longer....that just makes me very suprised!! and i wonder...how can you people talk about onther people's english when you're having trouble with it yourselves

Oh yea....must be because, no matter what, you're the best at everything anyway (you in general biz)

wow that was prolly THE most offensive post i have ever gotten on TA - thanx Proxi!!

what i wonder is how you all feel you can judge our speaking so well. frankly you all speak well (all those who arent native speakers of english) but its not perfect by any means. and the fact that we dont 'speak', or type in this case- perfect english doesnt make us terrible speakers. often culture and region can dictate how one speaks a language - and YOU should know that...its true anywhere.

if WE arent allowed to make typos once in awhile (and frankly i never type definately or quiet instead of their contemporaries) you shouldnt be allowed to say anything when typing 'onther' in your post ripping on ME.

when did i say i was the best? i think you just dont have justification and dont know me so you think you can make accusations like this...my only reason for defending my claim was to get REASON out of you- and you couldnt come up with anything concrete, so...

basically this post, and the ones debating whether the French like Americans is that nobody likes a bully. and no matter what Americans do they are always seen as an agressor of other nations whether we are or not. i dont have solutions for this problem, but i wish i could ask people (especially on TA) who have contact with these other cultures and countries to not be so judgemental...i KNOW it wont happen. (prolly cause im better than everyone else)

---> proxi

miss proximus knows everything there is to know about Dutch AND English. she NEVER spells anything wrong and NEVER uses the wrong word in a sentence...(NOTE:this is a completely unsubstantiated claim) proxi i KNOW better than this - you should too. but im not gonna pretend i know you cause you dont know me...

Posted by Ian on Mar-22-2002 20:03:

I think everyones due the odd typing error, and I think that it's unfair to use the topic to turn into a bitching session, and that's what the last post seems to try & do, to start a bitching war, I think Miss P. is better than this though, we all have troubles with english, sure about 40% of people who speak it as a primary language don't say or spell things right, but theres no reason to bitch over it, give everyone a break for bothering to learn our language, it's not written in cement that you should learn english and maybe we should try & learn others languages too

Posted by Blake613 on Mar-22-2002 21:32:

quote:
Originally posted by ferrycorstenfan

Ponga todo el dinero en notas no secuenciales en la bolsa y se apresura - Put all the money in non-sequential notes in the bag and hurry up

Hehe. You made the commands polite. For you non-spanish speaking people it's like saying "Sir, put all the money..." lol

Posted by Ian on Mar-22-2002 21:39:

Damn Freetranslation.com

Posted by TranceSeeker on Mar-22-2002 22:21:

I know one track with a Belgian name and that is
Zolex - tisnoodniegoe

DLOAD IT and tell me if you like away from the dutch title heheehhe

Posted by C-naptik on Mar-22-2002 23:05:

I too was very surprised by what Miss Proxi said...
That disappointed me...

I thought she was very open minded, she organized the whole TA meeting at Trance Energy, and she seems to like otehr cultures, so what she said about the Americans struck me...
Well I hope she didn't really meant what she wrote

I didn't want to say something about what she wrote right away, because i already started a small fight among the other french. I didn't want this thread to turn into a battleground !

Anyhow, I second what you said Biznology.
American people are more or less hated throughout the world...and that musn't be easy to live with, because whatever you do, you'll suffer from prejudices from all over.
We only need to remember that there are tolerant and non-tolerant people, arrogant and non-arrogant ones, in each country...

I realize it's really difficult to judge...

So I appologize to the other French and myself about what I sad against them.
Although I still dislike France and the general mentality of their inhabitants, I'm trying to be more tolerant.
Everybody should do that...

Posted by Eugene on Mar-23-2002 00:34:

Posted by Lytchix on Mar-25-2002 16:30:

quote:
Originally posted by C-naptik
American people are more or less hated throughout the world...and that musn't be easy to live with, because whatever you do, you'll suffer from prejudices from all over.

If Americans are so "hated", there is a reason...
Their behaviour is far to be irreproachable as far as international political!! Just look at the news...

Sure, they have certainly more "nationalist feelings" (as you said before) than French!!!

But we can't generalize, it's not worth to fight like that! Above all in a music forum...

Posted by evil_bastard on Mar-25-2002 17:40:

quote:
Originally posted by C-naptik

I strongly disagree there

Only people in Northern Europe know how to speak English well : almost everybody speaks fluent English in Belgium, The Netherlands and Scandinavia

Countries where English is pretty well spoken : Germany, Austria, Switzerland

Countries where English is almost not spoken at all : Southern Europe : France, Spain, Italy, Portugal...

I think the worst would definitely be France, hehe, it's like in the USA here, people only speak one language and all French are against learning English...they suck and are completely stubborn
why ? because they don't want to learn "the language of the fucking american imperialists" as they say

I know it's complete bullshit, the French are not aware yet that knowing how to speak English is an advantage in the European Union for exchanges, trade, and culture

Sorry I'm joining this conversation a bit late.

I've only been to Paris (which I admit is very touristy) but half the people there spoke better English than me.

As for "the language of American imperialists", is it true French people have this attitude?

Wasn't it the French that helped the Americans in the War of Independence?

What many people fail to realise is that it wasn't a big American victory, nor was it an English retreat. English people who'd emigrated to America fought Englishman. There were no great heroes, on either side.

Personally, I think the UK and America should do more to learn foreign languages. Countries like Britain and America are all apalling at learning other languages. I feel quite stupid when I go to another country, and a lad my age can speak my language and I can't speak his.

I think English is the most important language in the world. It has the largest vocabulary. Did you know there are over half a million words in the English language? No other language has anywhere near that amount. Sadly though, the average English-mother-tongue speaker knows just 15,000 of those 500,000 words. I'm all for keeping culture and tradition, but if there is going to be a global language, it may as well be English, because it's already the biggest by a long way. I wish I knew another language. Maybe after University when I've got more time on my hands I'll learn one.

Posted by extulas on Mar-26-2002 01:10:

quote:
Originally posted by Lytchix

If Americans are so "hated", there is a reason...
Their behaviour is far to be irreproachable as far as international political!! Just look at the news...

Sure, they have certainly more "nationalist feelings" (as you said before) than French!!!

But we can't generalize, it's not worth to fight like that! Above all in a music forum...

I agree strongly. WWII is the reason for it. Americans did it to themselves.

Posted by extulas on Mar-26-2002 01:12:

quote:
Originally posted by evil_bastard

Sorry I'm joining this conversation a bit late.

I've only been to Paris (which I admit is very touristy) but half the people there spoke better English than me.

As for "the language of American imperialists", is it true French people have this attitude?

Wasn't it the French that helped the Americans in the War of Independence?

What many people fail to realise is that it wasn't a big American victory, nor was it an English retreat. English people who'd emigrated to America fought Englishman. There were no great heroes, on either side.

Personally, I think the UK and America should do more to learn foreign languages. Countries like Britain and America are all apalling at learning other languages. I feel quite stupid when I go to another country, and a lad my age can speak my language and I can't speak his.

I think English is the most important language in the world. It has the largest vocabulary. Did you know there are over half a million words in the English language? No other language has anywhere near that amount. Sadly though, the average English-mother-tongue speaker knows just 15,000 of those 500,000 words. I'm all for keeping culture and tradition, but if there is going to be a global language, it may as well be English, because it's already the biggest by a long way. I wish I knew another language. Maybe after University when I've got more time on my hands I'll learn one.

Well, I mean, Yes, We helped them, And they help us. Some French soldiers are in Afghanistan now. People and Governments are totally oposites when you bring this into this kind of conversation. America also helped them in WWII to, Just like we rebuilt Germany, And we were against them...Totally different.

Posted by biznology on Mar-26-2002 03:07:

quote:
Originally posted by extulas

I agree strongly. WWII is the reason for it. Americans did it to themselves.

but we didnt just do it to ourselves. i KNOW we had a big part of the geneva convention, but we were placed in a position after the war that none of the decimated countries could have slid into. sure, its BECAUSE of the WWII that we are the superpower today...but then again we stayed out of the War as long as possible as well. whether thats at all pertinent now is debatable.../

Posted by extulas on Mar-26-2002 06:29:

Switzerland made a bad choice to join the U.N...Why couldnt they just have let them do inspections without joining the U.N like they have in the past 50 years? Doesnt make much sense does it? America gave, Oh, Excuse me, The "U.N" gave the Jew's the palastineans land... Thats hwy their fighting today. We joined WWII to look good. We treated Black ALMOST the same as they were treating the JEWS at first. But they it got really out of hand, Concentration camps and all...ect... I mean, Dont call me racist at all, Cause I'm not, But Fighting in WWII was good and bad. In ways...

Posted by JM on Mar-26-2002 06:32:

quote:
Originally posted by Eugene

hehe, sucks to be you!
even though I live in America my heritage is not American

true that! fluent in 2 languages, understand from very little to much a few more (3 or 4) languages

>JM<

Posted by dj_mdma on Mar-26-2002 12:32:

I have to say that Foreign people generally speak English better than we can speak their languages.

I was on a French exchange trip. I just spoke English, cos i couldn't fluently speak French. When they came here, it was like a normal language.

The Dutch are pretty much English! And I love the accent they have too, especially on the girls. mmmmmmmmm

Wherever u go, in the world, there will always be signs of English influenced language, cos its universal, as has been mentioned.

Posted by evil_bastard on Mar-26-2002 12:33:

quote:
Originally posted by biznology
sure, its BECAUSE of the WWII that we are the superpower today

Well I hate to be pedantic, but the industrial power of America as a whole had been accelerating from 1900 onwards, and by the 1930s was undoubtedly a superpower.

WW2 strengthened what the US already had. What they don't teach us in Western history schools is that 90% of WW2 was one by Russia. We did little.

Americans killed: 300,000
Russians killed: over 20 million

They also faced 90% of the Wehrmacht on the Eastern front for 4 years of constant fighting.

What we're also not taught in the history classes is that Stalin murdered over 20 million of his own people (on top of those who died in the war) in the purges. That's 3 times the size of the holocaust. We allied with the biggest mass murderer in history to defeat another mass murderer. Ironic isn't it.

The Russians were first to Berlin, after most of the fighting. Yet, they got few of the rewards, the US got most. German scientists, the best rocket scientists in the world, were nabbed by the US.

If you were to measure a country's wealth by the value of her natural resources, Russia would be richer than every other country in the world put together. They have absolutely everything. They do not, however, have the drilling equipment necessary to extract it, and so a lot of time the US "takes it off their hands".

To conclude, the US was a superpower anyway, and her industrial might ensured that would continue. However, WW2 did a hell of a lot to strengthen her economy. The US made Britain pay for every single American bullet, every single American casualty, everything, and then some. She profitted a great deal from the war. Britain on the other hand fought a 6 year war, not a 4 year one. It cost us �6 million a day. Instead of a 2 hour bombing raid on Pearl Harbour, we suffered 100 days of devastating bombing on our capital and on key coastal locations for 300 miles, every night. It was not so profitable for us, we were right on the edge of the action. But then I suppose you could say we got it easy compared to places like Belgium (everyone always invades Belgium)who were right in the thick of it.

Posted by litlitaly on Mar-26-2002 13:58:

quote:
Originally posted by evil_bastard

Personally, I think the UK and America should do more to learn foreign languages. Countries like Britain and America are all apalling at learning other languages. I feel quite stupid when I go to another country, and a lad my age can speak my language and I can't speak his.

That is partly true but the UK is improving. At my secondary school it was compulsory to take two foreign languages for three years and take atleast one for another two after that. Then they encouraged us to take one for another two years on top of that.

I learnt French from my last year of junior school through to my fifth year of secondary school (six years) and I learnt Spanish for seven years at secondary school. The school also encouraged extra-curricular language lessons and I took a two year Italian course to extend the Italian I knew from my childhood.

At university i'm given ample opportunity to study atleast one foreign language with my course.

I understand that this is a very recent development and earlier generations were not given such an opportunity.

The point I will make about the UK is that we are influenced greatly by the US market. For example, very few foreign language movies are ever shown in prime time and are usually scheduled on an obscure digital channel whereas about 50% of all our TV is from the US. In my opinion the government should make an effort to enhance coverage of EU life through the UK media to generate awareness of other cultures which is a key factor.

Posted by evil_bastard on Mar-27-2002 02:28:

I don't doubt there is ample opportunity to learn a foreign language, but there's a general unwillingness to do so. I think part of it stems from the American culture which is invading our daily lives. More Britons are becoming obese than ever before, another thing that has come from American culture. The average American walks just 1.1 miles a week, and when you look at the fast food chains that have come form there to here, it's very telling.

I think a part of it is due to the teaching. I got a C in my French GCSE even though I could not compose a single sentence in French. Something is wrong with the system if I can blagg it that easily. We were never taught to speak French, we were just taught 5 years of rubbish about correct grammar, more so than we'd learn in English. This is not the way to learn a language. You can speak English fluently without knowing how to correctly use apostrophes. We were also taught a lot about how sentences are formed. This was pointless, because you learn this naturally, just as we learnt English when we were children.

I think we should be a bit more pro European than pro American. Contrary to popular belief, our economic ties with America are not that strong. We do the vast bulk of our trading with Europe. This might sound like I'm having a dig at America - I'm not. It's up to ourselves whose culture we follow, but I can't say I enjoy the growing arrogance and overall egotistical nature of Britain both as a country and as a people.

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