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Schumacher=Overrated

Long live "IL DOTTORE" VALENTINO ROSSI...the true king of motorsport

I wouldn't say he's over-rated....

Rossi is a genius on a GP bike though

quote:

Originally posted by Paulinho Schumacher=Overrated

comments like these MAKE NO GAWD DAMN SENSE. how can he be over rated? HOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW? he just had luck ALL those years and managed to pull wins out of his ass?

It's very hard to lose when you are put on the best machine's with the best mechanics...I'm sorry I said Scumacher=Overrated...What I should have said is F1=overrated.

MotoGP is the best motorsport on the planet period.

quote:

Originally posted by Paulinho What I should have said is F1=overrated. MotoGP is the best motorsport on the planet period.

Hah! Both of those statements are completely baseless. At least provide some sort of a half-assed reason as to why that is true.

quote:

Originally posted by Cosmic Fur Hah! Both of those statements are completely baseless. At least provide some sort of a half-assed reason as to why that is true.

You asked for a half-assed reason but I'll give you the full version.

In F1 the driver to car ratio is 80% to 20% driver's skills whereas in GP it's the other way around more like 80% rider to 20% bike. What Rossi has accomplished in GP Schumacher can't even be mentioned in the same sentence of greatness as Vale. Schumacher won championships because he was always in the best car. If you had put Schumacher in a BMW do still think he could have managed to be as successful...I think NOT.

Rossi broke into the premier class of motorcycle racing in 2000 on a Honda NSR500 at the tender age of 20. His first year on the 500 was a learning year he finished 2nd in the championship. 2001 comes along and the rest as they say is history. Rossi dominated the 2001 season and since then there hasn't been anybody in the field to knock Rossi off of his throne. Vale went on to win 2 more championships with the superior Honda. Since Honda was the dominant force in GP, Rossi left Honda for the lowly Yamaha (which only scored 1 podium the previous year). Vale wrote history by not only winning the 2004 season on the Yamaha but winning 13 races in that season. 2005 same story Rossi clinched the title with 5 races to go.

What I am saying is that F1 is boring...not enough overtaking not enough drama...In GP the rider is draped over the machine that goes just as fast as the F1 cars...they are not securely fastened inside the machine

I can go on and on but i think thats enough for now

quote:

Originally posted by Paulinho You asked for a half-assed reason but I'll give you the full version. In F1 the driver to car ratio is 80% to 20% driver's skills whereas in GP it's the other way around more like 80% rider to 20% bike. What Rossi has accomplished in GP Schumacher can't even be mentioned in the same sentence of greatness as Vale. Schumacher won championships because he was always in the best car. If you had put Schumacher in a BMW do still think he could have managed to be as successful...I think NOT.

Let me start of by saying I am the furthest thing from a Schumi fanboy, if you don't believe me, ask Dima or check the other tread.

Ummm does Benetton mean anything to you?

quote:

Source = Wikipedia During these two championship seasons, the Benetton was not the best car in the field; however, Schumacher's dominance of Formula One was such that he won 17 out of the 31 races and finished on the podium 21 times.[19] Only once did he qualify worse than fourth, which was at the 1995 Belgian Grand Prix, where he qualified 16th, but went on to win the race.[20]

Ferrari was absolute shite when he moved there. Funny how all the Schumi haterz fail to remember that. One of MS' many abilities was to communicate to the engineers what the car needed to do in order to be competitive.

quote:

Source = Wikipedia In 1996, Schumacher signed with Ferrari, at the time considered technologically and organisationally inferior to the front running teams. Ferrari had not won the drivers championship since 1979. Various Ferraris of the early 1990s had been labelled "a truck", "a pig", and "an accident waiting to happen" by their drivers. Even the poor performance of the Ferrari pit crews was considered a running joke. [8] Schumacher is often credited along with Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne and Jean Todt with turning this once struggling team into the most successful team in Formula One history.[21]

Shame on Ferrari for finding the people and being able to spend the money to make this happen!!! What an absolutely disgraceful thing to do. Who enters a contest with the ulitimate goal of actually winning it? CRAZY TALK!!!!

I agree with what Klago said, but I also agree with Paulinho that F1 does need more overtaking.

MotoGp is awesome for it's aggressive overtaking, but the inherent physics of bikes allows for this kind of racing. Cars are too easily upset aerodynamically and thus have reduced overtaking possibilities. this really only applies to F1 style cars. DTM and LeMans style cars that have more open Aero rules don't have the same issues. If F1 were to allow flat & shaped bottom cars like back in the late 70's and early 80's, they wouldn't be as reliant on downforce generated by wing elements which lose effectiveness when they are placed in the dirty air behind another car.

Both racing series are very exciting to watch, depending on your reasons for watching each of them. Hell, even watching shifter-karts is exciting though it's nowhere near the top of the motorsport food chain.

I enjoy F1 for the technology and the racing, though often I find races boring. yet I still watch each one. I would watch more MotoGP if I subscribed to SpeedChannel because it's amazing and daring racing. The technology of the bikes is also making huge advancements.

I love watching rallying too and there you're only watching one car at a time. Hell, I was at LeMans in 2001 and watched from 4pm until noon the following day, no sleep, watched the whole time. A lot of people would call it boring as hell, but I found it fascinating.

To each their own.

Arguing over racing is like arguing over which is better: Trance or Techno.

We all know it's a useless argument, since Techno is obviously the superior genre

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by Paulinho Rossi broke into the premier class of motorcycle racing in 2000 on a Honda NSR500 at the tender age of 20.

Schumacher broke into F1 at the age of 24, and after only one brief test session is a mid-pack Jordan, he qualified 7th at Spa when he had only been around the track on a bicycle before that. Also, he was one of only a select few drivers who took the Eau Rouge corner flat-out. Senna, Prost and Mansell were the others.

The same logic applies. Both drivers are equally gifted in their own disciplines. What Rossi did for the Yamaha team recently is akin to what Schu did for Ferrari from when he arrived there until 2000 when they first won the championship.

Just don't let Rossi drive a rallycar, he falls off the road each time

Records Schumi holds...

quote:

* Most championship titles: 7 * Most consecutive championship titles: 5 * Most race wins: 91 * Most consecutive race wins: 7 (in 2004 - European GP, Canadian GP, United States GP, French GP, British GP, German GP, Hungarian GP; record shared with Alberto Ascari) * Most race wins with one team: 72 with Ferrari * Most race wins at the same GP: 8 at the French Grand Prix (Magny-Cours) * Most different GPs (by country) won: 20 * Most time between first and last race wins: 14 years, 1 month and 2 days * Most second place finishes: 43 * Most podium finishes: 154 * Most consecutive podium finishes: 19 (from the 2001 United States Grand Prix, until the 2002 Japanese Grand Prix) * Most points finishes: 190 * Most laps leading: 4741 (with a total of 22,155 kilometers (13,758 miles) in 131 Grands Prix)[50] * Most pole positions: 68 * Most starts from first row: 108 * Most fastest laps: 76 * Most doubles (pole position and race win): 40 * Most hat-trick (pole position, race win and fastest lap): 22 * Most championship points: 1,369 * Most consecutive race finished without retirement: 24 (from the 2001 Hungarian Grand Prix, until the 2003 Malaysian Grand Prix) * Most championship points in a season for a vice-world champion: 121 (out of a maximum of 180) * Most Wins in a season for a vice-world champion: 7 (ties Alain Prost and Kimi R�ikk�nen) * Only racing driver ever, in any racing class, to win 5 times at Indianapolis Motor Speedway * Only racing driver ever, in any racing class, to win 5 times at Autodromo Nazionale Monza

enuf said.

I am still undecided whom to support from now on, considering that I've been Schumacher's fan pretty much since I started watching F1 in 1994.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_M I am still undecided whom to support from now on, considering that I've been Schumacher's fan pretty much since I started watching F1 in 1994.

If Fernando can make MacLaren fast, there is no question who I will be supporting next season.

one last thing about Schumacher's Benetton car... after his switch to Ferarri both Jean Alesi & Gerhard Berger went to Benetton ...& according to an F1 Magazine interview (which I have in my collection...yes I am the ultimate F1 geek) they both called the car, as Schumacher had set it up in winning the championship the year earlier, "undriveable". ....hmm... I recall that being the year of the single greatest racing performance of all time, the 1995 Belgian Grand Prix, & the Schu dominating that entire season.......scary stuff

I want to watch the old races

quote:

Originally posted by klago If Fernando can make MacLaren fast, there is no question who I will be supporting next season.

do you think the car will be more reliable next year? are they getting new engines?

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse Just don't let Rossi drive a rallycar, he falls off the road each time

He's actually racing the NZ rally in late November in a WRX

quote:

Originally posted by Paulinho He's actually racing the NZ rally in late November in a WRX

He tried Rally Breat Britain a few years ago in a Peugeot 206 WRC and fell off the road on the first stage.

I'm only kidding about it though. Power to him. he just needs to apply his racing magic to a different discipline. i know he could do it given enough time & practice.

quote:

Originally posted by klago If Fernando can make MacLaren fast, there is no question who I will be supporting next season.

McLaren's problem is reliability, not speed.

quote:

Originally posted by chinaboy1021 do you think the car will be more reliable next year? are they getting new engines?

No they will not. Ron Dennis has not been him self since:
1) the building of the Mclaren Hospitality center.
2) building the new Mclaren design/production building.
3) building the new Mclaren Mercedes SLR.

He has had a lot of distractions over the last few years, and it shows. The increased involvement from Mercedes is not good for the squad either; their engines have been shit for 5 years now, and has wasted the careers of Mika, Kimi, and even JPM. If your car does not get you to the finish, what the hell is the point?

quote:

Originally posted by klago Let me start of by saying I am the furthest thing from a Schumi fanboy, if you don't believe me, ask Dima or check the other tread. Ummm does Benetton mean anything to you? Ferrari was absolute shite when he moved there. Funny how all the Schumi haterz fail to remember that. One of MS' many abilities was to communicate to the engineers what the car needed to do in order to be competitive. Shame on Ferrari for finding the people and being able to spend the money to make this happen!!! What an absolutely disgraceful thing to do. Who enters a contest with the ulitimate goal of actually winning it? CRAZY TALK!!!!

Well Said!!!

quote:

Originally posted by mute79 Same can be argued for Schumacher then, he was only winning because they had the best package for so long and all other teams couldn't get anything reliable put together. Weak argument as they're both great drivers.

you should really research your history before commenting about best packages.

Senna was a great driver aswell, he also pulled a few dirty tricks in the process. That's racing for you, regardless of how dirty a racer can be, he/she can't win races just based on that lol ... Senna, Pryce, and Schumacher are one of the greatest driver ever, unofortunately only Schumacher lived his career through.

quote:

Originally posted by djeso unofortunately only Schumacher lived his career through.

I consider that to be incredible in itself - to drive in that many races, each time pushing the envelope as far as you can and still be able to retire of old age (rather than because your legs were ripped off or something), is really a testament to how much F1 has evolved.

oh great..not one of these motoGP guys...

both are the ultimate in racing, period.

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse but the inherent physics of bikes allows for this kind of racing. Cars are too easily upset aerodynamically and thus have reduced overtaking possibilities.

double you tee eff? thats a load of shit. Bikes are way more upset aerodynamically than cars are. not to mention way less aerodymanic and much less grip.

quote:

If F1 were to allow flat bottoms

they are flat.

I beg to differ. The skid plank is flat, and this is the lowest part of the car. From there, the floor steps up an inch or two in the floor of the sidepods.

F1 mandated this stepped bottom in the 80's or early 90's to try and keep the cornering speeds down due to a reduction in downforce.

If the cars ran flat, or externally stepped bottoms, it would create more of a venturi effect which would result in a huge low pressure vaccum under the car, effectively sucking it to the ground.



This is the 1978 Brabham BT46. Note the fan on the back that spins off an output shaft from the gearbox. The fax sucks air out from beneath the car, and the sliding side skirts prevent more air from getting back under the car. This car won it's one and only race before it was banned.

Now, getting back to the bike comparison, the bikes obviously have less grip, both mechanical and aerodynamic. More attention is paid to reducing drag on the GP bikes, and not generating downforce. They get upset aerodynamically when they're in traffic for sure, but this only buffets them from side to side. The GP bikes are now being tuned with a falling torque curve which acts as a kind of traction control. The engine is mapped in such a way to produce peak torque fairly low in the rpm range so that the driver car open the throttle wider, sooner than the old carburated GP bikes.

When I say that F1 cars are more upset aerodynamically than the bikes, I mean that an F1 car needs smooth clean air to work most efficiently. If you're behind another car, you're in dirty air and your wings and other aero bits aren't working as well as they should, thus reduicing your overall grip. Because a bike doesn't rely on aero to generate grip, being tucked in behind somebody doesn't cost you in terms of peak cornering speed.

Disclaimer: this post was not meant to sound preachy or knowitall-y. Apologies if it came across that way

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse I beg to differ. The skid plank is flat, and this is the lowest part of the car. From there, the floor steps up an inch or two in the floor of the sidepods. F1 mandated this stepped bottom in the 80's or early 90's to try and keep the cornering speeds down due to a reduction in downforce. If the cars ran flat, or externally stepped bottoms, it would create more of a venturi effect which would result in a huge low pressure vaccum under the car, effectively sucking it to the ground.

In terms of being flat, I stand with Euphorica. Although they may have a lowerd wooden plank, bellow the rest of the body, the bottom of the car is still not shaped to give a tunnel effect. That is the real point. Whether there is a step or not, I do not think, it makes as much of a difference.

The fact is, that the bottoms of the cars are not artificially producing less pressure. They are not increasing the speed of the air, or channeling it in any way, other than just going around the wooden plank.

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