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-- Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews
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The bottom line Cyrus, is that both parties have elements that want all the land. Until both parties can root those elements out, nothing will get accomplished. The only solution here is compromise, and the Israelis have a much higher hand, so they are in a position to negotiate. All the Palestinians can negotiate with is bombs, so they do. All this does, is strengthen the radical elements on the Israeli side. And so on and so forth.

That 10 year old Palestinian girl that was shot. Her brothers, cousins, etc. will die for her in 15 years fighting a war started in 48. What is the use? Peace is the only option for life.

Yes, Jews have suffered through the ages. But it does not justify what they're doing with Palestinians. All their actions only justify the anti-semitism around the world because one little negative thing the Jewish state does can be magnified a hundred times. You see, they went in to the Middle East boldly believing that the whole woorld will allow them to have an independent state based on their suffering in World War II, and massacres of Jews throughout the ages. However, now they're stuck in the never-ending cycle of violence and are literally living off, barely alive, off the support of United States. And what if that ends? Will the Jewish suffering end?

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Yes, Jews have suffered through the ages. But it does not justify what they're doing with Palestinians. All their actions only justify the anti-semitism around the world because one little negative thing the Jewish state does can be magnified a hundred times. You see, they went in to the Middle East boldly believing that the whole woorld will allow them to have an independent state based on their suffering in World War II, and massacres of Jews throughout the ages. However, now they're stuck in the never-ending cycle of violence and are literally living off, barely alive, off the support of United States. And what if that ends? Will the Jewish suffering end?

this suffering rant has nothing to do with my post above it, what are you replying to?

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Originally posted by Dopey this suffering rant has nothing to do with my post above it, what are you replying to?

You're pretty damn ignorant if you think it doesn't. Zionism has been around for a while, except there was virtually no support for it amongst European Jews before WW2 and the holocaust. It has everything to do with it.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King You go into a land... destroy the people and their homes.. make your own country on displaced peoples land.. and then you want PEACE???? AHAHAHA

I think you just summed it up. Although I don't think it had any impact on the hypocrites here. They'd rather pretent to care about the Jewish people in order to get over their guilt than have learned anything from it. People interested in feeling good about themselves as opposed to having the decency and humility to change that about themselves don't truly believe in anything IMO. It's entirely disingenuos and selfish. They don't care about the Jews or the Arabs, they're just interested in superficial boosts to their ego.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z You're pretty damn ignorant if you think it doesn't. Zionism has been around for a while, except there was virtually no support for it amongst European Jews before WW2 and the holocaust. It has everything to do with it.

how does any of this have to do with my post which was about compromise? you think there is a solution that doesn't involve compromise? I don't understand the point being made. I said nothing about Jews taking the land legally. All I said is that the extremist forces on both sides aren't helping anything.

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Originally posted by Dopey how does any of this have to do with my post which was about compromise? you think there is a solution that doesn't involve compromise? I don't understand the point being made. I said nothing about Jews taking the land legally. All I said is that the extremist forces on both sides aren't helping anything.

Well technically it does, but I won't bother with that. But you're right, a compromise needs to be made, atleast as a temporary first step. To bad the Zionism by it's very nature is uncompromisnig, and the cause for more extreme elements on eigther side to begin with.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z To bad the Zionism by it's very nature is uncompromisnig, and the cause for more extreme elements on eigther side to begin with.

I don't think Zionism is uncompromising nowadays. I think if there could be an assured peace, no Jew in the world would stand in the way of major concessions to the Palestinians. Nobody wants to see more bloodshed, nobody but extremists.

Here is the Palestinian idea of compromise.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King You go into a land... destroy the people and their homes.. make your own country on displaced peoples land.. and then you want PEACE???? AHAHAHA

Sure, why not? Everyone else did it with no problem.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z You're pretty damn ignorant if you think it doesn't. Zionism has been around for a while, except there was virtually no support for it amongst European Jews before WW2 and the holocaust. It has everything to do with it.

Actually you are misinformed:
Balfour Deceleration happened in 1917 (with the support of British, i.e. European Jewry) after WWI before WWII and the holocaust. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfou...aration_of_1917

There were large waves of immigrants to Israel from Europe before Nazi persecution from Russia and many Eastern European nations in the 1890s and 1910s.

But its a mute argument: The Palestinian movement didn't exist till the 1960s. So who cares how new of a phenomena zionism is? Palestinianism is so new there isn't even a term for it yet...

Also the first organized new Jewish settlments started to spring up in Israel around 1900s.

So you can say that perhaps most the Jewish people were not interested in the idea, but I could counter that most secular Jews were.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Sure, why not? Everyone else did it with no problem. Actually you are misinformed: Balfour Deceleration happened in 1917 (with the support of British, i.e. European Jewry) after WWI before WWII and the holocaust. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfou...aration_of_1917 There were large waves of immigrants to Israel from Europe before Nazi persecution from Russia and many Eastern European nations in the 1890s and 1910s. But its a mute argument: The Palestinian movement didn't exist till the 1960s. So who cares how new of a phenomena zionism is? Palestinianism is so new there isn't even a term for it yet... Also the first organized new Jewish settlments started to spring up in Israel around 1900s. So you can say that perhaps most the Jewish people were not interested in the idea, but I could counter that most secular Jews were.

You restated what I just said.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z You're pretty damn ignorant if you think it doesn't. Zionism has been around for a while, except there was virtually no support for it amongst European Jews before WW2 and the holocaust. It has everything to do with it.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Here is the Palestinian idea of compromise.

I wonder if you would have said the same thing about the native Americans, say... a few centuries ago. Ofcourse there's minor differences, like being called a "savage" instead of a "terrorist." Just some food for thought.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Here is the Palestinian idea of compromise.

WOW... that just totally convinced me!!!

Many people here can post 10X more pictures of Israels slaughter.. but we know that it exists.. and dont have to convince ourselves.

Now why didnt you answer my post?

Have nothing to say??? thought so.

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Originally posted by Dopey The bottom line Cyrus, is that both parties have elements that want all the land. Until both parties can root those elements out, nothing will get accomplished. The only solution here is compromise, and the Israelis have a much higher hand, so they are in a position to negotiate. All the Palestinians can negotiate with is bombs, so they do. All this does, is strengthen the radical elements on the Israeli side. And so on and so forth. That 10 year old Palestinian girl that was shot. Her brothers, cousins, etc. will die for her in 15 years fighting a war started in 48. What is the use? Peace is the only option for life.

All they negotiate is with bombs?? is that the only thing you pro-zionists can say all the time? Suicide bombing?

Ive already given you my opinion on suicide bombing.

Palestinians waited 27 patient years until their situation got so bad that they had nothing to live for and decided to blow themselves up.

Before that.. they werent blowing themselves up and that was Israels chance to UNOCCUPY the palestinians land after they wiped their country off the UN partition plan that Israeli's constantly utilize to justify the existence of their country.. even though they didnt follow the partition.

Do you honestly think that the palesitinians would welcome 75% of theor land taken by eastern european jewsih immigrants with open arms? Do you think their wouldnt be a stuggle??

If you were palestinian.. would you not fight for your right to live on the land your people called their homeland????

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Originally posted by Yoepus Sure, why not? Everyone else did it with no problem.

You advocate modern day colonialism,land tranfer, ethnic cleansing and displacement?

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z You restated what I just said.

No I said pretty major support started in the early 1900s. Whereas you say support started almost fifty years later in late 1940s.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King All they negotiate is with bombs?? is that the only thing you pro-zionists can say all the time? Suicide bombing? Ive already given you my opinion on suicide bombing. Palestinians waited 27 patient years until their situation got so bad that they had nothing to live for and decided to blow themselves up. Before that.. they werent blowing themselves up and that was Israels chance to UNOCCUPY the palestinians land after they wiped their country off the UN partition plan that Israeli's constantly utilize to justify the existence of their country.. even though they didnt follow the partition.

Not very true:
# The hijacking of an El Al flight from Rome to Lod airport in Israel on July 23, 1968. The Western media reported that the flight was targeted because the PFLP believed Israeli general Yitzhak Rabin, who was Israeli ambassador to the US, was on board. Several individuals involved with the hijacking, including Leila Khaled deny this. The plane was diverted to Algiers, where 21 passengers and 11 crew members were held for 39 days, until August 31;
# Gunmen opened fire on an El Al passenger jet in Athens about to take off for New York on December 26, 1968, killing one passenger and wounding two others;
# An attack on El Al passengers jet at Z�rich airport on February 18, 1969, killing the co-pilot and wounding the pilot;
# The bombing of a Jerusalem supermarket on February 20, 1969, killing two Israelis and wounding twenty others;
# The hijacking of a TWA flight from Los Angeles to Damascus on August 29, 1969 by a PFLP cell led by Leila Khaled, who became the PFLP's most famous recruit. Two Israeli passengers were held for 44 days;
# Three adult Palestinians and three boys aged 14 and 15 years old threw grenades at the Israeli embassies in The Hague, Bonn and the El Al office in Brussels on the same day, September 9, 1969 with no casualties;
# Attack on a bus containing El Al passengers at Munich airport, killing one passenger and wounding 11 on February 10, 1970;
# The bombing, with a barometric pressure device, of a Swissair flight bound for Israel, killing 47, on February 21, 1970; for details see Swissair Flight 330.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...on_of_Palestine

1972: Lod Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lod_Airport_massacre
1972: Munich Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre
1972: Sabena Flight 572 Hijacking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijack...bena_Flight_572
1976: Air France Fligth 139 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_139
1977: Lufthansa Flight 181 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Flight_181


Of course the 80s and 90s were much more peaceful

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Originally posted by Dopey how does any of this have to do with my post which was about compromise? you think there is a solution that doesn't involve compromise? I don't understand the point being made. I said nothing about Jews taking the land legally. All I said is that the extremist forces on both sides aren't helping anything.

Its not about your post, you idiot. I was talking in general about the situation. Is this your way of getting away from my point?

Its kinda silly how western media portrays a young woman with a mock suicide belt as something so terrible, something that's worse than let's say 10 Palestinian civilians killed in a Israeli raid/bombing.

Palestinians, the radicals groups especially, they dont have state-of-the-art technology like advanced guided missiles, tanks, airplanes, nightvision goggles, GPS, etc. to fight the occupational Israeli forces. So they resort to "savage" methods that have shown to be effective, for example suicide attacks. Because if they will just protest or engage Israeli troops with outdated guns, that doesnt have any effect on the Israelis, especially the morale. Instead, the western media portrays the Palestinians as some kind of zombies who have gone crazy.

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Originally posted by Yoepus No I said pretty major support started in the early 1900s. Whereas you say support started almost fifty years later in late 1940s.

There were minor waves of migration, nothing compared to the exponential increase after 1947, which is AFTER the Holocaust. Israel has been continuosly expanding and occyping Palestinian land ever since, and those settlement aren't exactly ghost town you know.

What I find most disgusting about the pro-Zionist argument is the assumption that colonial Britain's empire/rule, was somehow legitimate/moral, or atleast legitimate/moral enough to give the British/UN the "authority" to hand over land already inhabited to foreigners. Guess what you morons, the rest of the world wasn't divided into nation states until the British/French/Spanish colonized and raped the planet, making meanigless artificial boundries in the process. So I guess that makes the entire world their property by your logic.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Not very true: # The hijacking of an El Al flight from Rome to Lod airport in Israel on July 23, 1968. The Western media reported that the flight was targeted because the PFLP believed Israeli general Yitzhak Rabin, who was Israeli ambassador to the US, was on board. Several individuals involved with the hijacking, including Leila Khaled deny this. The plane was diverted to Algiers, where 21 passengers and 11 crew members were held for 39 days, until August 31; # Gunmen opened fire on an El Al passenger jet in Athens about to take off for New York on December 26, 1968, killing one passenger and wounding two others; # An attack on El Al passengers jet at Z�rich airport on February 18, 1969, killing the co-pilot and wounding the pilot; # The bombing of a Jerusalem supermarket on February 20, 1969, killing two Israelis and wounding twenty others; # The hijacking of a TWA flight from Los Angeles to Damascus on August 29, 1969 by a PFLP cell led by Leila Khaled, who became the PFLP's most famous recruit. Two Israeli passengers were held for 44 days; # Three adult Palestinians and three boys aged 14 and 15 years old threw grenades at the Israeli embassies in The Hague, Bonn and the El Al office in Brussels on the same day, September 9, 1969 with no casualties; # Attack on a bus containing El Al passengers at Munich airport, killing one passenger and wounding 11 on February 10, 1970; # The bombing, with a barometric pressure device, of a Swissair flight bound for Israel, killing 47, on February 21, 1970; for details see Swissair Flight 330. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...on_of_Palestine 1972: Lod Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lod_Airport_massacre 1972: Munich Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre 1972: Sabena Flight 572 Hijacking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijack...bena_Flight_572 1976: Air France Fligth 139 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_139 1977: Lufthansa Flight 181 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Flight_181 Of course the 80s and 90s were much more peaceful

Those were not Suicide bombings inside Israel. And these were not terrorist attacks inside israel (Except for the Jerusalem bombing). These were isolated international terrorist operations. Second these were in response to more land grab after the 67 war. Unfortunately, people died becuase of these terrorist attacks, but the majority of these..if not all.. are external incidents.

Please show me terrorist suicide bomb attacks inside israel during the time i mentioned.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Those were not Suicide bombings inside Israel. And these were not terrorist attacks inside israel (Except for the Jerusalem bombing). These were isolated international terrorist operations. Second these were in response to more land grab after the 67 war. Unfortunately, people died becuase of these terrorist attacks, but the majority of these..if not all.. are external incidents. Please show me terrorist suicide bomb attacks inside israel during the time i mentioned.

inside Israel? between what years exactly?

Munich comes to mind. Killing Jews outside of Israel is the same as killing them inside Israel. Sorry if you don't agree, but that is how every Jew I know would see it.

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Originally posted by Dopey inside Israel? between what years exactly? Munich comes to mind. Killing Jews outside of Israel is the same as killing them inside Israel. Sorry if you don't agree, but that is how every Jew I know would see it.

well.. they have locamotive issues then.

Munich was horrible and was condemned world wide just like any state terrorist or terrorist actions are.

However, the palesitnians didnt use suicide bombing until 27 years AFTER their occupation.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/

Rabbi on Zionism

Thanks to chritos for posting this here:

tranceaddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > "Jewish like me"

It belongs in this thread too.

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