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quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Basically I've been spewing this kind of thing here for some time, but as I've told you in the past, none of it gets noticed because I'm just a dull little moderate with no extremist right or left leaning, predjudice or able to put it in a contemporary context people find interested enough to comment on. It's out there, its real, heck it's probably happened on your street. But no one cares. Just like no one cares about what they or their children eat even though thats statistically going to send them to an early grave or ruin their quality of life and health with a higher probability than some lunatic strapped up with high explosive or anthrax through their letterbox. Such is life I suppose

Uh... you did read the whole thing right? Maybe not necessarily that article, but everything else in that post?

Yes and it made me feel sick, was that the reaction you wished to elicit?

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Yes and it made me feel sick, was that the reaction you wished to elicit?

No, my point was, I wouldn't put anything beyond this administration. If they're sick enough to torture children, they're easily capable of a holocaust.

New Holocaust coming soon?

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Originally posted by venomX Are you referring to American's being somehow immune to this phenomena of obedience? If you are, it's not an "opinion", it's been proven beyond doubt that people will commit any range of actions if the right conditions are set. Now you could argue that now the argument narrows down but the conditions are very general. If people can displace the blame from themselves to a figure of authority, and are given the illusion of not having an option no to do the action, that's all it takes to make a person commit such heinous acts. Edit: I also forgot a condition that highlights shaolin's argument, people have to be exposed in small increments to whatever action they're going to be committing. It's like the frog in boiling water, and this may well be the first step in that series of events. Don't fool yourself thinking that American's and each and everyone of us including me and yourself are somehow special and are going to react differently.

Logically I don't disagree with you that it's possible, however to make a conclusion that Nazism is just over the threshold is bit much.

There was a quantum leap of logic between the initial, 'Distrust of Muslims' and then, all of a sudden, 'Concentration camps' to fit the opinion of Nazism in the first place.

Re: New Holocaust coming soon?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Logically I don't disagree with you that it's possible, however to make a conclusion that Nazism is just over the threshold is bit much. There was a quantum leap of logic between the initial, 'Distrust of Muslims' and then, all of a sudden, 'Concentration camps' to fit the opinion of Nazism in the first place.

Dude, do you understand the difference between concern and certainty? Given everything that's going on, it's a pretty legitimate concern.

Re: New Holocaust coming soon?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r There was a quantum leap of logic between the initial, 'Distrust of Muslims' and then, all of a sudden, 'Concentration camps' to fit the opinion of Nazism in the first place.

Those are already being built.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z No, my point was, I wouldn't put anything beyond this administration. If they're sick enough to torture children, they're easily capable of a holocaust.

And you can understand my frustration such issues have to be highlighted in a post which you have to admit, is being out there on the edge of extreme possibilities and war crimes for people to even consider it a problem when it happens routinely on a domestic basis.
Add to that, there is seemingly nothing I can do about it. I can't vote, most of the other foreigners here can't vote to get them out and we can't petition for things like impeachments. If we do, most people in the US will tell us to pull our heads in and stay out of their domestic government policies because it's none of our business, so like the rest of the world we just have to put up with it.

Re: New Holocaust coming soon?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Logically I don't disagree with you that it's possible, however to make a conclusion that Nazism is just over the threshold is bit much. There was a quantum leap of logic between the initial, 'Distrust of Muslims' and then, all of a sudden, 'Concentration camps' to fit the opinion of Nazism in the first place.

I agree with your point, but due to the step by step increase of things like these, if you don't stop it at the beginning it's nearly impossible to stop it at a later stage. That's what happened in Germany. It was step by step. First demonizing the jews by boycotting their businesses and identifying them by making them wear the star of David. Then by limiting their movement around the country and out of the country. And THEN by starting the concentration camp. Don't you see some parallel between those actions and what's going on with Muslims right now? It's still in the first stages in North America, now it's when it's possible to stop it, not later.

Edit: Also, Lilith I understand your sentiment. I'm not a Canadian citizen or even a 'landed immigrant', I'm just here for studying, so there's not much I can really do than make my Canadian friends aware of the situations and hope they do something. It's quite frustrating because they don't care if it doesn't affect them directly.

You all know that I'm usually pro-Israeli (though the Israeli government does fuck up, and will sometimes even admit to doing so), but I'd never want to see Arabs or Muslims be classifed as subhumans (uneter-manche) as the nazis viewed the Jews. No person should ever have to be subjected to such cruelty as being stripped of everything against his/her will, be taken to a concentration camp, forced to work manual labor for an inhumane amount of hours, be stripped of food, lack of medical care, and have crazy "doctors"/scientists do the worst kind of tests on your body while you're ALIVE and suffering.
That's what the Holocaust was about. It was about more than just people losing their pride, but also about humans losing their humanity. That should never, EVER, be repeated again.
The saddest part of all this is that Germany before World War II was considered one of the most enlightened countries in the world. If it happened there, it could happen anywhere unless WE do something about it.

Re: Re: New Holocaust coming soon?

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Originally posted by Q5echo do you really think my country is capable of concentration camps? ...and another thing, do you really think playing the Nazi card is constructive to whatever dogma you want others to believe?

Oh my... that's a scary question to ask, because I wish I could just say adamantly, "No!", yet can't with 100% accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith And you can understand my frustration...

Yup, I certainly do.

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Originally posted by Lilith ...we just have to put up with it.

That's not something I personally can accept though.

EDIT: "can" changed to "can't"
EDIT2: Crap, I'm a retard. "can't" changed to back to "can"

Re: Re: New Holocaust coming soon?

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Originally posted by venomX I agree with your point, but due to the step by step increase of things like these, if you don't stop it at the beginning it's nearly impossible to stop it at a later stage. That's what happened in Germany. It was step by step. First demonizing the jews by boycotting their businesses and identifying them by making them wear the star of David. Then by limiting their movement around the country and out of the country. And THEN by starting the concentration camp. Don't you see some parallel between those actions and what's going on with Muslims right now? It's still in the first stages in North America, now it's when it's possible to stop it, not later.

Sure, and my family and friends can get upset because I can drive a car and go out and run people over, that doesn't mean I'm going to DO IT.

George Bush as the ability to kill babies does that mean he's going to do it? Hell no.

We're playing with a futile possibility that is so out of sight in a land that loves it's freedom people! Think about it for a second before falling for such schlock.

Let's look at this from a SANE perspective:

quote:

KBR Awarded US Department of Homeland Security Contingency Support Project for Emergency Support Services Business Wire Friday 24 January 2006 Arlingon, Va.- KBR announced today that the Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) component has awarded KBR an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contingency contract to support ICE facilities in the event of an emergency. KBR is the engineering and construction subsidiary of Halliburton (NYSE:HAL). With a maximum total value of $385 million over a five-year term, consisting of a one-year based period and four one-year options, the competitively awarded contract will be executed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Fort Worth District. KBR held the previous ICE contract from 2000 through 2005. "We are especially gratified to be awarded this contract because it builds on our extremely strong track record in the arena of emergency operations support," said Bruce Stanski, executive vice president, KBR Government and Infrastructure. "We look forward to continuing the good work we have been doing to support our customer whenever and wherever we are needed." The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations (DRO) Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs. The contingency support contract provides for planning and, if required, initiation of specific engineering, construction and logistics support tasks to establish, operate and maintain one or more expansion facilities. The contract may also provide migrant detention support to other U.S. Government organizations in the event of an immigration emergency, as well as the development of a plan to react to a national emergency, such as a natural disaster. In the event of a natural disaster, the contractor could be tasked with providing housing for ICE personnel performing law enforcement functions in support of relief efforts. ICE is one of three agencies that make up the Border and Transportation Security (BTS) Directorate of the DHS. The mission of the BTS Directorate is to secure the nation's air, land and sea borders. ICE, the largest investigative arm of the DHS, is responsible for identifying and shutting down vulnerabilities in the nation's border, economic, transportation and infrastructure security. KBR is a global engineering, construction, technology and services company. Whether designing an LNG facility, serving as a defense industry contractor, or providing small capital construction, KBR delivers world-class service and performance. KBR employs more than 60,000 people in 43 countries around the world. Halliburton, founded in 1919, is one of the world's largest providers of products and services to the petroleum and energy industries. The company serves its customers with a broad range of products and services through its Energy Services Group and KBR. Visit the company's World Wide Web site at www.halliburton.com.

>>Source<<

Now, did we read CONCENTRATION CAMPS written anywhere in there?
I wonder why?
Could it be because there's no agenda to spin this into something that it isn't?
Does it have the capabilities of holding large amounts of illegal immigrants in a time of need, yes. Does that instantly convert it into a Nazi concentration camps with hot ovens waiting for poor unsuspecting Muslims? No.
Obviously there is a disjunct in what a Nazi concentration camp even is to begin with, or the horrors even mentioning it.
Go ask a vet that's been there, do some research because there's been nothing like them and nothing like them since (thank God).
Are we forgetting who fought that battle to free those people from that human misery??? Think about it people.

I fail to see ANY connection other than they are 'camps' by word association alone, nothing else.
There is no conclusive evidence of the government rounding up people for the purposes of annihilation, no grand conspiracy to one day change their soldiers' march to a goose step and no evidence of government xenophobia other than what's being posted here.

What is being posted is a lot of lofty connections being stacked to process a rhetorical conclusion that will never happen.

Re: Re: Re: New Holocaust coming soon?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Sure, and my family and friends can get upset because I can drive a car and go out and run people over, that doesn't mean I'm going to DO IT. George Bush as the ability to kill babies does that mean he's going to do it? Hell no. We're playing with a futile possibility that is so out of sight in a land that loves it's freedom people! Think about it for a second before falling for such schlock. Let's look at this from a SANE perspective: >>Source<< Now, did we read CONCENTRATION CAMPS written anywhere in there? I wonder why? Could it be because there's no agenda to spin this into something that it isn't? Does it have the capabilities of holding large amounts of illegal immigrants in a time of need, yes. Does that instantly convert it into a Nazi concentration camps with hot ovens waiting for poor unsuspecting Muslims? No. Obviously there is a disjunct in what a Nazi concentration camp even is to begin with, or the horrors even mentioning it. Go ask a vet that's been there, do some research because there's been nothing like them and nothing like them since (thank God). Are we forgetting who fought that battle to free those people from that human misery??? Think about it people. I fail to see ANY connection other than they are 'camps' by word association alone, nothing else. There is no conclusive evidence of the government rounding up people for the purposes of annihilation, no grand conspiracy to one day change their soldiers' march to a goose step and no evidence of government xenophobia other than what's being posted here. What is being posted is a lot of lofty connections being stacked to process a rhetorical conclusion that will never happen.

Well i guess this is the end of the argument. You fail to understand the step by step basis of convincing decent people to commit atrocious acts. Bear in mind my friend that the Germans too believed that those that pointed out the beginnings of what was to come were just making lofty connections being stacked to process a rhetorical conclusion that would never happen, at least not in Germany of course. It's sad that so many westerner's believe that they are somehow immune to things that have happened in the past and that can so easily repeat themselves. I hope I'm wrong, and i hope people in the states can avoid repeating history by taking the appropriate steps if the time comes.

Edit: Also I think the Milgram experiments on obedience pretty much prove that ANYONE could do what the Nazi's did. I seriously don't understand how you can live in the denial of it. It can happen anywhere, specially when people think it can't happen, that just makes it easier. And for reference Milgram type experiments have been replicated many times, in many places with different scenarios.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's not something I personally can't accept though.

Yep, but you have democratic rights in the US, I don't. Myself or anyone else butting into US policy, especially their domestic policy even in a harmless environment like this one tends to just attract the reply of 'butt out of my country' from the majority of US citizens.
And fair enough I suppose, no one likes being told what to do or what they should do by a tourist who wanders into their country and starts mouthing off.
I've been to the US a few times and I know enough not to make assumptions or preconceived notions about how it would be taken either.
When the US does it to other people, its called 'democratic reform' or 'freedom' and we have to live with that.

quote:

Also I think the Milgram experiments on obedience pretty much prove that ANYONE could do what the Nazi's did.

Agreed, basically anyone who's been in a situation where its you or them, your family or anything else you highly value and even a consideration for someone who's genuinely had a good hard think about it, can proverbially become the 'triggerman' I suppose for a lack of a better word at the moment.
I'll tell you flat out right now, the government tells you in order to fulfil your job, keep your house, family fed, threatened with a crime if you don't or citizenship revoked, you'll probably do it to someone you dont personally know and rationalise it somehow at the time. Because if you don't. Youre screwed.

Re: Re: Re: Re: New Holocaust coming soon?

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Originally posted by venomX Well i guess this is the end of the argument. You fail to understand the step by step basis of convincing decent people to commit atrocious acts. Bear in mind my friend that the Germans too believed that those that pointed out the beginnings of what was to come were just making lofty connections being stacked to process a rhetorical conclusion that would never happen, at least not in Germany of course. It's sad that so many westerner's believe that they are somehow immune to things that have happened in the past and that can so easily repeat themselves. I hope I'm wrong, and i hope people in the states can avoid repeating history by taking the appropriate steps if the time comes.

You guys are trying to stuff a square peg in a round hole.
There are basic fundamental differences between these two entirely different style of governments.
Germany was (at the time of the Nazis) a totalitarian state that ruled with fear, had death squads, and killed without discrimination; I should be preaching to the choir here.
How could one seriously think there is any likeness after fighting the very evil thing in which millions gave their lives?
Probability based on paranoid opinion doesn't make for a very strong argument.
The reality is, too many people died fighting this very thing and they'll certainly recognize it again, even if it looks to be starting on their own soil; just how dumb do you think people really are??

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New Holocaust coming soon?

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r You guys are trying to stuff a square peg in a round hole. There are basic fundamental differences between these two entirely different style of governments. Germany was (at the time of the Nazis) a totalitarian state that ruled with fear, had death squads, and killed without discrimination; I should be preaching to the choir here. How could one seriously think there is any likeness after fighting the very evil thing in which millions gave their lives? Probability based on paranoid opinion doesn't make for a very strong argument. The reality is, too many people died fighting this very thing and they'll certainly recognize it again, even if it looks to be starting on their own soil; just how dumb do you think people really are??

I study psychology and I can tell you this: people are very 'dumb'. No one here is saying that there's going to be concentration camps tomorrow, we're just pointing out that this could be the start of the process that ends in that. No one here is saying that it has to happen. If you read what I posted I'm merely pointing out that it can happen and that there is a similarity between things that are going on in the states now and what happened in Germany. You think the people that made up those 'death squads' where different than you in some way? Are you special somehow in comparison to them? No, that's what I've been arguing all along. You talk about preaching to the choir, but you haven't even addressed my argument about obedience while I have addressed your supposed difference between people in North America and the Nazi's in Germany. Also, on the 'too many people died fighting', how is that relevant? You think 'too many people' didn't die fighting in other places where mass genocide has happened? And please cut the 'omg you guys are so paranoid' thing. We're argumenting, and as far as I'm concerned there are no major holes I'm my argument so trying to discarded because you're more comfortable with these situations than us as paranoid is a bit disrespectful. If you don't feel like actually arguing against what I've said just don't reply to my posts.

And on the different styles of government, the states is slowly becoming a 'totalitarian' state. The position of president is gaining more and more power. Obviously there will be an election and hopefully the winner will be more reasonable and reverse some of these excessive powers that have been bestowed upon the president position.

While I was looking up more info on this subject I ran across this...

what ya think??

SOURCE

quote:

Terrorism through Subterfuge Submitted by admin on Wed, 2006-11-29 23:53. U.S. News "While serving up a hefty portion of eye candy to the trusting public, the so called "moderate Muslims" are busily undermining the fragile security apparatus hastily configured post 9/11 through accusations of Islamophobia, religious bigotry and now, 'flying while Muslim.'"--Douglas J. Hagmann 29 November 2006: As I pointed out when interviewed by The Washington Times for an article that appeared last week, the "plight" of six Muslim religious leaders is rapidly becoming a watershed event for the Islamic ideological jihad in the U.S. Precious few Americans fully understand the deliberate and sophisticated strategy being employed by the Islamists whose goal it is to convert the U.S. into their own Islamic playground. In fact, their strategy is so effectively deceptive and insidiously simple that many anti-terrorism hardliners are failing to recognize that these tactics are getting better results than flying planes into buildings and creating a body count. The more resolute and hard-core Islamists know that violence and murder is one thing that is easily understood by all Americans, but is not-well tolerated. They saw the anger that emanated from America after 9/11, and watched as the attacks by the Islamic terrorists united � however briefly � all of America. The second and third generation Islamists living inside the U.S. know from recent history that for the long term, attacks such be avoided if at all possible. Instead, the Islamist movement is gaining a much better chokehold by taking advantage of the trust and goodwill of Americans, and by exploiting America's collective attention deficit disorder and our blissful ignorance to history. Does this mean that the U.S. is in no danger from Islamic terrorist attacks? Absolutely not, as the less patient Muslim terrorist who has been groomed in an environment of hating all things American will rise to the occasion with the tacit approval of the "moderate" Muslims. Meanwhile, the moderate Muslim facilitators will enjoy plausible deniability of such attacks and plots, and will even publicly "condemn" such behavior in order to advance their long-term agenda. While serving up a hefty portion of that eye candy to the trusting public, these so called "moderate Muslims" are busily undermining the fragile security apparatus hastily configured post 9/11 through accusations of Islamophobia, religious bigotry and now, "flying while Muslim." U.S. Air Flight 300 is the latest example of their strategy in progress, where they are shoving down the throats of every American their religion and ideology by exploiting America's tolerance and core beliefs of fundamental human rights. Through CAIR (the Council on American-Islamic Relations), an organization that protects the rights of Muslims and has grown rabidly since America was attacked, the American public is once again being scolded for the erroneous accusations of racial and religious ethnic profiling of the six Muslim men on Flight 300. It took CAIR less than 12 hours after the incident to publicly suggest that the passengers aboard Flight 300, the flight crew and investigating officials might have "succumbed to fear and prejudice based on stereotyping of Muslims and Islam." It took less than 48 hours for CAIR to publicly dispute the facts of the incident as related by witnesses aboard the plane and detailed on the police report. It was also with lightning speed that the resources of the U.S. Department of Justice and the Transportation Security Administration were redirected to investigate these allegations of prejudice. And it took absolutely no time at all for the executive director of CAIR, Nihad Awad, to shift the focus away from the behavior of the Muslim passengers and blame a prejudiced American public for their irrational fear of Muslims behaving in a suspicious manner aboard an aircraft: "Reactions like this to Muslims praying really strike at the heart of the fear and prejudice that�s still so prevalent in this country." Once again, attention is being successfully shifted from the behavior of the Muslims on board U.S. Air Flight 300 to the plaintive wails of a litigious, well-funded and highly visible organization. Clearly, it is much easier to criticize the response to a perceived threat than by explaining the behavior that precipitated the response.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New Holocaust coming soon?

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r The reality is, too many people died fighting this very thing and they'll certainly recognize it again, even if it looks to be starting on their own soil; just how dumb do you think people really are??

Well, it's one of those things which have started to slip from human memory as to how really terrible things really where and reduced to nothing more than grainy footage on documentaries and old gentlemen talking about it in tired voices in same said docos.
Add to that, complacency is the biggest enemy as people are often involved more with independant pursuits of varying degrees of social worth which arent always very aware of what their governments get up to behind their back. Most people are stuck in their work too deep or indulging in the wonderous joys of capitalism, material wealth and fun to ever really notice. Add to that a huge array of one-sided media and journalism that only reports what it's owner wants it to and people should be very wary about what is actually reported and what is actually happening.

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX While I was looking up more info on this subject I ran across this... what ya think?? SOURCE

Wow, I really hope you posted that here to put the spotlight on blatant anti-Muslim sentiment being propagated and pushed through the media, not something you actually took seriously . Eigher that, or you'd better be really wasted. Otherwise, I'm coming over to your place right this instant. A few giant rips off a 15 ft. hard glass bong with an ice filled chamber ought to chill you out. But you never know, perhaps it could backfire and cause paranoia intense enough to make you smash an awesome glass peice like that right on my head (I don't have a 15 ft. bong BTW; could have been a prized possession a few years ago, but that phase is long over ).

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New Holocaust coming soon?

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Originally posted by venomX I study psychology and I can tell you this: people are very 'dumb'. No one here is saying that there's going to be concentration camps tomorrow, we're just pointing out that this could be the start of the process that ends in that. No one here is saying that it has to happen. If you read what I posted I'm merely pointing out that it can happen and that there is a similarity between things that are going on in the states now and what happened in Germany. You think the people that made up those 'death squads' where different than you in some way? Are you special somehow in comparison to them? No, that's what I've been arguing all along. You talk about preaching to the choir, but you haven't even addressed my argument about obedience while I have addressed your supposed difference between people in North America and the Nazi's in Germany. Also, on the 'too many people died fighting', how is that relevant? You think 'too many people' didn't die fighting in other places where mass genocide has happened? And please cut the 'omg you guys are so paranoid' thing. We're argumenting, and as far as I'm concerned there are no major holes I'm my argument so trying to discarded because you're more comfortable with these situations than us as paranoid is a bit disrespectful. If you don't feel like actually arguing against what I've said just don't reply to my posts.

I already said I wasn't disagreeing with about this so stop fightin' it, it's just a ludicrous argument that's all

quote:

And on the different styles of government, the states is slowly becoming a 'totalitarian' state. The position of president is gaining more and more power. Obviously there will be an election and hopefully the winner will be more reasonable and reverse some of these excessive powers that have been bestowed upon the president position.

That's an opinion and while, sure, the president may have more executive powers, there are checks and balances built into the system of government that allows the impeachment of said president.
The same can't be said of a totalitarian government...
Why am I explaining this?? You should know this!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New Holocaust coming soon?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I already said I wasn't disagreeing with about this so stop fightin' it, it's just a ludicrous argument that's all That's an opinion and while, sure, the president may have more executive powers, there are checks and balances built into the system of government that allows the impeachment of said president. The same can't be said of a totalitarian government... Why am I explaining this?? You should know this!

Cool then hehe, I guess we're going to stay at a stalemate here. I don't feel as comfortable as you with what's happening because I don't trust the establishment as much as you. It certainly is a possibility that it won't happen, but I do believe all angles should be considered because denying that it could ever happen just increases the possibilities of it happening.

it's a shame that this is the result of all of this.

if a genocide of any sort were ever to take place in this country then that is the beginning of the end of the world.

quote:

Originally posted by FliptheSwitch it's a shame that this is the result of all of this. if a genocide of any sort were ever to take place in this country then that is the beginning of the end of the world.

No it wouldn't be. You people have a serious superiority complex. You're just another country, nothing special about it. There have been world powers throughout history. Many have come and gone, and the same will happen with the states. If a genocide happens in the states it would only mean that the people of that country were unwilling or unable to stop it. Nothing more.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New Holocaust coming soon?

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Originally posted by venomX Cool then hehe, I guess we're going to stay at a stalemate here. I don't feel as comfortable as you with what's happening because I don't trust the establishment as much as you. It certainly is a possibility that it won't happen, but I do believe all angles should be considered because denying that it could ever happen just increases the possibilities of it happening.

Anything is possible yes, but nothings going to happen overnight either.
There are just way too many checks within a democratic society for something like this to have pulled over our eyes; collectively even.
I might as well buy a lotto ticket with those odds!

I'd say Russians are a lot closer to having concentration camps, see this thread for example...

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles The saddest part of all this is that Germany before World War II was considered one of the most enlightened countries in the world.

By who?!

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