TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Political Discussion / Debate
-- It's Not Apartheid: Jimmy Carter's moronic new book about Israel.
Pages (3): « 1 2 [3]

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King For your information... palestinians were not blowing themselves up after the occuption started in 1967. They waited 27 patient years as they got slaughtered by israel until the first suicide bombings began. And you are claiming the the world would have cared??? Why didnt they care during those 27 years of occupation??? As sad as it is.. the world now knows the plight of the palestinians becuase tehy are showing their anger and hatred through unfortunate means.

27 years patiently waited?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_A...d_its_aftermath

I was reading about the 1948 Arab-Israeli war when the Arabs
invaded Israel right after it got independance. There's lots
of examples in the wiki articles where Arabs since the 1930s
were murdering Jews in Palestine just because of their religion.
Attacking their communities and towns. The British forces who
administered the territory after the Ottoman Empire was defeated
did little to help the Jewish civilians. After further reading
it's interesting the British's treatment of Jews during the 30s
and 40s. Not very flattering. But what else is new, Jews have
been persecuted for thousands of years.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Lay off the sledging already. This threads pretty much due to have a fork stuck in it anyway. If you want to look at peaceful political reform after generations of racial violence for a solution you'd do worse to look up the history of the ANC. The ANC where for many years literally a terrorist organisation that eventually decided to put away their guns, stop blowing people up, fighting amongst themselves and take that brave step onto the moral high ground which eventually led to peaceful social and democratic change with popular support. The PLO and its other sub-departments could do well to either take that step or take a step in the direction of economic opposition, they do that, drop the fighting and I'll quite happily side with them. Until then, I've got no bias one way or another with Palestine or Israel, theyre both equally as bloody terrible as one another for lots of different reasons and thats it.

I'm not saying I agree with violent resistance... but do you honestly think that the SA apartheid regime would have sat down with Mandela had there been absolutely no violence in previous years from the ANC... or if they hadn't suffered a beating at the hands of the Cubans in Angola, which caused Namibia to gain it's independence and install an anti-apartheid regime?

Like it or not, sometimes violence is the most powerful force for social change that there is.

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC 27 years patiently waited? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_A...d_its_aftermath I was reading about the 1948 Arab-Israeli war when the Arabs invaded Israel right after it got independance. There's lots of examples in the wiki articles where Arabs since the 1930s were murdering Jews in Palestine just because of their religion. Attacking their communities and towns. The British forces who administered the territory after the Ottoman Empire was defeated did little to help the Jewish civilians. After further reading it's interesting the British's treatment of Jews during the 30s and 40s. Not very flattering. But what else is new, Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years.

Are you talking about Palestinians, or simply Arabs in general?

Oh, and about the persecution thing. So have Palestinians.

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Are you talking about Palestinians, or simply Arabs in general? Oh, and about the persecution thing. So have Palestinians.

That's a good question. Don't think the article
made a distinction about the 30-40s violence.
Just that it was taking place in Palestine.
But there were some Arab multinational forces
and volunteer forces there too.

I also don't really think the minority Jews at
the time were going around persecuting and murdering
Palestinians/Arabs first or really very much. They
were outnumbered and the Brits weren't helping keep
them safe like they should have it seems.

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC That's a good question. Don't think the article made a distinction about the 30-40s violence. Just that it was taking place in Palestine. But there were some Arab multinational forces and volunteer forces there too. I also don't really think the minority Jews at the time were going around persecuting and murdering Palestinians/Arabs first or really very much. They were outnumbered and the Brits weren't helping keep them safe like they should have it seems.

The distinction between Arab and Palestinian is important in large part because most Arabs don't consider Palestinians to be on equal footing. Even when Palestinians weren't being persecuted by Jews (and I assure you, there were cases of such persecution ever since Balfour), they were being persecuted elsewhere. Why do you think Jordan and Egypt don't want Gaza or the West Bank?

Very true. Paletinians are just being used
by more radical elements *cough Iran* and
aren't thought of highly or equally by most
Arabs.

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC Very true. Paletinians are just being used by more radical elements

So are the Jews.

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC Very true. Paletinians are just being used by more radical elements *cough Iran*

That's not exactly why Arabs shun Palestinians. In fact, if you're talking about financial support for militant groups (which I can only assume), the biggest benefactors are Arab Saudis. Arabs get behind militant Palestinians for the same reason the Iranians do: they don't like Israel, and want to see it gone. Especially if they can get rid of it through proxy groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. But they don't like Palestine either, and don't think for a second that either would welcome the 3 million Palestinian refugees, much less contribute to their general well-being in any tangible way. For much of the Middle East, Palestinians are just expendable tools to be used to keep Israel in check. Why are they expendable? Because they're deemed to be in some way racially inferior.

I agree completely.

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC I agree completely.

And yet you said this:

quote:

Before Arafat started this 2nd intifada they had a bright future, a state guaranteed, tons of investment and aid from the world. Then he decided to turn to violence for more concessions from the peace process and look at how they live now, poor and jobless...

They've been stuck between a rock and a hard place long before Arafat ever entered the picture. Sure he didn't help as much as he should have or could have. But to paint things as a matter of light before he entered and dark afterwards is neglecting to take into account an awful lot.

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC 27 years patiently waited? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_A...d_its_aftermath I was reading about the 1948 Arab-Israeli war when the Arabs invaded Israel right after it got independance. There's lots of examples in the wiki articles where Arabs since the 1930s were murdering Jews in Palestine just because of their religion. Attacking their communities and towns. The British forces who administered the territory after the Ottoman Empire was defeated did little to help the Jewish civilians. After further reading it's interesting the British's treatment of Jews during the 30s and 40s. Not very flattering. But what else is new, Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years.

please dont use wikipedia as a reputed source. Although its fairly nuetral.. its written by people and edited everyday.


second.. you didnt read what i wrote. The palestinians didnt use SUICIDE BOMBING for until 27 years after the occupation.

Also, the first intifada started in the 80's.. some 20 years after occuptation.

The british did "little" to help the Jews?? hahahhahahahaha.. I guess they were just militarily trained by god himself.


Now the Palestinians are using rockets.

Israel was founded on terrorism

You out of all people shouldnt be eductating me on the israel/palesitnian conflict.


Hey how bout you do a search on the KING DAVID HOTEL.

^^ Nice response Cyrus. Funny how ignorant most people are, well, actually it's not funny, it's downright disgusting.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King ...its written by people ...

You don't say!

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov And yet you said this: They've been stuck between a rock and a hard place long before Arafat ever entered the picture. Sure he didn't help as much as he should have or could have. But to paint things as a matter of light before he entered and dark afterwards is neglecting to take into account an awful lot.

I agreed with the post before this ^^^. Now about the other
post of mine you quoted that had nothing to do with the 'I
agree Palestinians are used and thought of 2nd class in the
arab world', I stated during the 90's peace accords they finally
had a decent chance at a prosperous future. Investment from
the world was up and it looked like a lasting peace would
finally happen.

But because Arafat didn't like some of the provisions he didn't
sign it and left the peace table, then started the 2nd intifada.
Has the violence helped? Changed what he didn't like in the document?
I would say no. Now there's no investment, or even foreign aid,
they are more isolated, even the other Arab countries have had it
with their Hamas led-governement. Only the Israeli's pissing them
off have they started to give alittle money to the Hamas government
to spite Israel lately.

---------------

And yes cyrus, if you look it up the British let Jews get massacred,
then when they needed bodies for WW2 did they all of a sudden care
and trained jews to fight for them. Once the war was over they were
dropped like a bad habit and weren't protected once again when they
got what they needed. And remember they were outnumbered and surrounded
by hostile Arabs in Palestine.
According to some of it, the constant violence made the world separate
them with one side for jews and one for palestinians, and the rest is
history...

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC --------------- And yes cyrus, if you look it up the British let Jews get massacred, then when they needed bodies for WW2 did they all of a sudden care and trained jews to fight for them. Once the war was over they were dropped like a bad habit and weren't protected once again when they got what they needed. And remember they were outnumbered and surrounded by hostile Arabs in Palestine. According to some of it, the constant violence made the world separate them with one side for jews and one for palestinians, and the rest is history...

Forget all the other facts you're ignoring, but the most imporant one is that Palestine was never their property to begin with! That's like saying "hostile Americans surrounding Soviet New York" or something .

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r You don't say!

Most of who probably belong to this group in most likelyhood:

quote:

The Times July 28, 2006 Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers From Yonit Farago in Jerusalem WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet. Israel�s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages. In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special �megaphone� software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate. Jonny Cline, of the international student group, said that Jewish students and youth groups with their understanding of the web environment were ideally placed to present another side to the debate. �We�re saying to these people that if Israel is being bashed, don�t ignore it, change it,� Mr Cline said. �A poll like CNN�s takes just a few seconds to vote in, but if thousands take part the outcome will be changed. What�s vital is that the international face of the conflict is balanced.� Doron Barkat, 29, in Jerusalem, spends long nights trawling the web to try to swing the debate Israel�s way. �When I see internet polls for or against Israel I send out a mailing list to vote for Israel,� he said. �It can be that after 15 minutes there will be 400 votes for Israel. �It�s very satisfying. There are also forums where Lebanese and Israelis talk.� Israel�s Foreign Ministry must avoid direct involvement with the campaign but is in contact with international Jewish and evangelical Christian groups, distributing internet information packs. Amir Gissin, the Israeli Foreign Ministry�s public relations director, said: �The internet�s become a leading tool for news, shaping the world view of millions. Our problem is the foreign media shows Lebanese suffering, but not Israeli. We�re bypassing that filter by distributing pictures showing how northern Israelis suffer from Katyusha rocket attacks.�

Source: Times Online

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.