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-- Revealed: Israel plans nuclear strike on Iran
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quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's exactly what the military is, an institution for brainwashing young individual to strip them of their individuality, critical & independant thinking, and make obedient hitmen out of them for the biggest thug of them all, the state.

of course. a soldier's duty is to follow orders without question. given that a soldier's role can (and does) save the lives of those around them, i dont see the "brain-washing" (its really combat conditioning imo) as an inherent evil. you could say the same for any strict hierarchical system where people are expected to do as theyre told.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z They're people who carry out the worst forms of agression and terrorism for their masters the state.

thats just fancy word-play. war is a terrible terrible NECESSARY evil. there are too many instances in just the 100 years of violence being completely justified. like it or not sometimes push must come to shove. and like it or not the american armed forced have been involved in much of the "humanitarian" warfare in this period.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z And you have to be brainwashed to compromise your critical thinknig and your concience in order to do that. But every indivdual is responsible for the consequence of his action or inactions at the end of the day. Which is why I stopped sympathiznig with their positions ages ago (for the most part). 99 % of war have nothing to do with genuine self defense or any noble cause whatsoever. Most people just never come to question theory and see what cetain institution are in practice.

very true. its more than just to judge those on the ground that carry out indiscriminate killings and rapes etc. but i think its a little unfair to carry that opinion over the men and women that serve their country with distinction. wars are always going to occur, and as already said, these men and women prevent the rest of us from donning a uniform. i think your stat of "99%" is a little harsh too.

as far as i am concerned, as long as a soldier is following the articles of war, they deserve our thanks for putting their lives on the line in my stead.

Simplify it for you people:

What does Iran and Al Qaeda want? The entire middle
east an islamic republic (no democracies), Israel
wiped out, and no US presence so they can do what
they want.

Instead they have over 100k American troops, substantial
naval forces in the region, two new democracies, loss of
Taliban Afganistan's sanctuary & training camps, and Israel
is thriving.

Most Arab countries except Syria hate Iran and it's
nuclear research and regional ambitions, plus Bin Laden
who wants to overthrow their governments.

And you people claim 'They've got you right where they want
you muahahaha'. You guys are too funny lol.

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC Simplify it for you people: What does Iran want? The entire middle east an islamic republic (no democracies), and no US presence so they can do what they want.

Well can u blame em. The last thing the West gave em was a military dictator for 3 decades that gave 90% of their natural resources to the West. So the people stepped up & had a revolution. Then the people spoke & made thier own Islamic State.

quote:

Originally posted by jonSun Well can u blame em. The last thing the West gave em was a military dictator for 3 decades that gave 90% of their natural resources to the West. So the people stepped up & had a revolution. Then the people spoke & made thier own Islamic State.

...while murdering 100s of thousands of their own people, enslaving their women and giving no one any hope of ever accomplishing anything with their life while at the same time making them wholy dependant on their totalitarian regime. Yea, that's just a much better idea...
Long live Che...

I understand what you're trying to say, but if they're going to LET Western investors come in with their money and create jobs for YOUR country, don't be surprised if they get a little pissed off when you nationalize their investments and disrupt a very valuable comodity.

I don't understand why they just don't use the money they're getting from the West to their advantage and help their own people move forward.
Create their own businesses, create more jobs, etc.
What they have done is a GREAT job of keeping themselves in the Stone Age all worried about their piety, meanwhile we've just about got the Jetsons over here...

where the hell did my robot maid go....

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I don't understand why they just don't use the money they're getting from the West to their advantage and help their own people move forward. Create their own businesses, create more jobs, etc. What they have done is a GREAT job of keeping themselves in the Stone Age all worried about their piety, meanwhile we've just about got the Jetsons over here...

amen.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r ...while murdering 100s of thousands of their own people, enslaving their women and giving no one any hope of ever accomplishing anything with their life while at the same time making them wholy dependant on their totalitarian regime. Yea, that's just a much better idea... Long live Che... I understand what you're trying to say, but if they're going to LET Western investors come in with their money and create jobs for YOUR country, don't be surprised if they get a little pissed off when you nationalize their investments and disrupt a very valuable comodity. I don't understand why they just don't use the money they're getting from the West to their advantage and help their own people move forward. Create their own businesses, create more jobs, etc. What they have done is a GREAT job of keeping themselves in the Stone Age all worried about their piety, meanwhile we've just about got the Jetsons over here... where the hell did my robot maid go....

While I agree with you on most points, they do have a relatively low cost of living due to high government subsidies on fuel and public transportation. Persians are a generally relaxed and laid back culture.

Without wanting to pick a religious fight with anyone, some of the failings of their culture that you're describing point more towards the theocracy and it's heavy application of religion on people's lives.

The same arguments can be said for other nations like Saudi Arabia who don't exactly have a stellar record on human rights of progress for women either.

I do agree that their mouthpiece (Ahmedinejad) is a nutter and isn't doing the nation any public relations favours in the least. I wonder what the next guy will do.

When does Ahmedinejad's term end now that he was voted out of office?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN of course. a soldier's duty is to follow orders without question. given that a soldier's role can (and does) save the lives of those around them, i dont see the "brain-washing" (its really combat conditioning imo) as an inherent evil. you could say the same for any strict hierarchical system where people are expected to do as theyre told.

Exactly my point. Chickenhawks need an army of brainwashed people to do their dirty work for them.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN thats just fancy word-play. war is a terrible terrible NECESSARY evil. there are too many instances in just the 100 years of violence being completely justified. like it or not sometimes push must come to shove. and like it or not the american armed forced have been involved in much of the "humanitarian" warfare in this period.

Pfft... America and humanitarian work don't belong in the same sentence, unless it's global PR. And by your logic, terrorism is a "necessary evil."

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN very true. its more than just to judge those on the ground that carry out indiscriminate killings and rapes etc. but i think its a little unfair to carry that opinion over the men and women that serve their country with distinction. wars are always going to occur, and as already said, these men and women prevent the rest of us from donning a uniform. i think your stat of "99%" is a little harsh too.

It is harsh, so is reality.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN as far as i am concerned, as long as a soldier is following the articles of war, they deserve our thanks for putting their lives on the line in my stead.

I wouldn't thank someone for sacrificing their mind and body for mafia dons. At the most, I'd feel sorry for them for being such delusional fools.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I wouldn't thank someone for sacrificing their mind and body for mafia dons. At the most, I'd feel sorry for them for being such delusional fools.

Labeling the entire military again when you concede it's a
very small minority doing bad stuff. You come off as a moron.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Exactly my point. Chickenhawks need an army of brainwashed people to do their dirty work for them. Pfft... America and humanitarian work don't belong in the same sentence, unless it's global PR. And by your logic, terrorism is a "necessary evil." It is harsh, so is reality. I wouldn't thank someone for sacrificing their mind and body for mafia dons. At the most, I'd feel sorry for them for being such delusional fools.

honestly, that just reads like a kids tantrum.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN honestly, that just reads like a kids tantrum.

If you insist. I think being a kid is having stupid notions about the military like most people and even more stupid sentimental attatchement to "our troops." And ridiculous indoctrinated beliefs like "service to the country." What service? The state isn't owned by the people, it's owned by the Oligarch. Most people never grow up and wake up to reality. Their childish fantasies and dreamwordls give their weak feeble mind far too much comfort.

i was in the military for almost 10 yrs.. still have no idea what exactly i was indoctrinated to.

we were once submerged off the coast of this real poor fishing village just watching and listening. all around us were these small fishing junks. they were like large dingy's with two man crews tending their nets. we had to weave our way in and around these junks for days undetected 24/7. it so sucked like you wouldn't believe because it was my responsibility to track and monitor every single one of these junks within a certain radius and recomend to the OOD different courses. anyway to make a long story short we end up catching one of these drift nets. we could tell because we could see these orange floats following us everywhere about a 1000' behind us through the scope. we had to dive and leave the area and speed up to tear off this poor guys net off of us.

couldn't tell you how long this poor bastard had to work to buy his net, or how long he had been using it to provide for his family all i know is we drug it 10 miles out to sea for no good reason but to get some lousy intel.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo i was in the military for almost 10 yrs.. still have no idea what exactly i was indoctrinated to. we were once submerged off the coast of this real poor fishing village just watching and listening. all around us were these small fishing junks. they were like large dingy's with two man crews tending their nets. we had to weave our way in and around these junks for days undetected 24/7. it so sucked like you wouldn't believe because it was my responsibility to track and monitor every single one of these junks within a certain radius and recomend to the OOD different courses. anyway to make a long story short we end up catching one of these drift nets. we could tell because we could see these orange floats following us everywhere about a 1000' behind us through the scope. we had to dive and leave the area and speed up to tear off this poor guys net off of us. couldn't tell you how long this poor bastard had to work to buy his net, or how long he had been using it to provide for his family all i know is we drug it 10 miles out to sea for no good reason but to get some lousy intel.

Cool. We're you a sonar operator? No disrespect with what you did, but I have mad respect for cold war submariners beyond your time. I read blind's man bluff and I heard about some of the crazy things that submariners went through during the cold war. Things that brought us to the brink of WWIII.

i was an FT (Fire Control Technician). Sonar would send me their tracker data (basically an electronic point in the water called FIDUs or Fixed Interval Data Units converted from sound hydrophones on whatever array they are using wether its hull array, spherical array or towed array) every few seconds or so and i would stack these FIDU's over time and using basic trig programs could figure out what the course, speed and range of the contact. if we wanted to shoot the contact i would dump that course,speed and range data or Fire Control Solution into a torpedo and send it on its merry way. i was petty good at it but naturally the higher contact density of the environment would be proportionally more difficult. there were up to four Sonar operators each monitoring up to umpteen different trackers and only one or two of me, each contact having its own relavance.

the old school guys like the have the most respect because they did all that shit manually on special slide rules and computers with gears in them. couldn't imagine really.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider I read blind's man bluff and I heard about some of the crazy things that submariners went through during the cold war. Things that brought us to the brink of WWIII.

great book. people still don't realize how close we came on several occasions. f**kin nuts! the U.S.S Parche is still a legend in it's own time for some of the shit it's done. i went on board her in New London and Pearl Harbor because i knew a couple of her sonar techs.
she's been replaced by the new modified Virginia Class the Jimmy Carter but that boat will never do some of the stuff the Parche did.

what people also don't realize is that we're still fighting an underwater cold war to this day except with another country.

That's pretty wild. Must be tense down there.
Crimson Tide was such a great movie. Also the
parts in Tom Clancy books with subs are some
of my favorite. Ever transport any Seals or
Marines?

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC Ever transport any Seals or Marines?

yeah Crimson Tide was about a Trident SSBN. completely different world they operate in. i've worked on a few but never underway.

when i was on this boat



we trained with SEALs a few times using the new (new to us. it was retrofitted from the Archerfish) DDS or Dry Deck Shelter. its basically a hanger for their 4 man mini sub they use to compromise foreign harbors undetected. it also has a small hyperbaric chamber so they can decompress in emergencies.

i don't know if you remember hurricane Jorges several years back when it buttraped the entire Caribean. we were practicing with the SEALs and their new toys about 15 miles south of Puerto Rico. we were told to secure and go deep to let Jorges pass over us. well, the SEALs wanted desperately to get back to their unit in Rosie Roads to help prepare for this major hurricane. no shit, they asked the Captain if we could come to periscope depth and let them out through the DDS so they could swim 15+ miles back to base! the Captain didn't let them. luckily Rosie roads was just grazed by Jorges.

SEALs are just badasses no ifs ands or buts, but they look like regular dudes. theres short ones, tall ones and skinny ones even some pudgy ones. they're, for the most part, very quiet down to earth regular type people but a bit more focused and know how to handle themselves with any kind of weapon imaginable. it's their compliment of divers that come with them that causes headaches underway. for every squad of SEALs that got underway with us they always have about twice as many diver fags that come with them to do all their grunt work like carry their equipment, line-up and turn valves, phone talking, basically their butt-boys. they always talk shit and they always have something to prove (something your prolly familiar with being a Marine). SEALs have NOTHING to prove. they just sit around and read or do pull-ups and drink all the milk.

Nice, informative. Spent last night at work reading alittle
on the U.S.S. Scorpian and the Russian K-129 sinkings.
Some interesting stuff, I wonder what the real story behind
those two were.

Oh and I got a question, with the nuclear torpedoes, wouldn't
the sub that fired them get at least damaged if not sunk
by firing one at enemies in torpedo range? The range can't
be that much on the torpedoes without them being very near
to the blast right?

As the highest american military ranking person here..... you two need to keep it down...

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