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Originally posted by Dopey FireStarter, there is no point in arguing with Jewlin_Z, Cyrus, and Chechnya man (magnewahtever), obviously they have a personal connection with something that has happened. It is very sad that humans cannot forgive the acts of a minority of a population and will take out their aggression on the masses. You and I did not shoot their 2nd cousin, but they associate our support of Israel/Jews with the acts they are so very much affected by. This is human nature, and the reason I don't foresee any peace in that area of the world for many years. We have to look at it through their lens. If my cousin or my friend's brother, or my teacher's son was killed in some refugee camp by a stray IDF bullet, I would spout the same rhetoric. You cannot listen with anger.

I do understand that, I really do.
However, I'm not about to let them use that as an excuse even if thats the undercurrent in everything they post (it's rather obvious).
Just because I'm not 'from the area' or 'am Islamic' doesn't give them moral authority to browbeat and call names like some errant child.
Tolerance and understanding works both ways and if we don't work together to make it better with actual solutions then it everything is just one big bitch session with nothing moving forward.
I'm done explaining myself to people who don't have a clue what tolerance is.

quote:

Originally posted by Dopey yea ur completely right "hardcore," every Jew wants to shoot every 10 year old Arab girl in the head

you are right,because in their fucked up belief,if they can kill the children there will be less terrosists in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Yes because democracy is the cause of all evil...

ya we see the results of this so called democracy in Iraq everyday and it is DEF not working and yes it is causing more hate an death.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Are you really that fucking stupid?

Nope,he is beyond that.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z In this case, the two aren't terribly different. So I don't see what your point is. That's like saying don't make a political issue out of the civil rights. Ok, I guess we'll just stay quiet and it'll just take care of itself somehow.

I'll be quite simple then.
There are thousands of kids around the world that get roped into wars, religious fueds and civil infighting around the world beyond their means to resist, argue or reason with.
Because theyre kids
They have no choice, they can't fight back, they more often than not get killed and the only time someone seems to care is when they can collect a few political brownie points to the cause.
And it's disgusting
These kids are apolitical, innocent and have no choice, they are neither volanteers, educated or capable of being pro/no anything and as such shouldnt be used as a political prop of any kind, living or dead. One child who's parents support one thing is not of any more value than the child who's parents support the diametric opposite, I am really loathe to see that you would be digging around using their deaths in this manner because it's little better than the warmongers around the world who would draft them into their miltiias for much the same reasons and ultimately caring little for how their lives end or are twisted for their aims.

Something as empowered grown ups capable of looking after ourselves we forget along the way of how utterly defenceless we where as children.
If you find a few $ spare or time to help.
http://www.amnesty.org/
They are neither political, religious and will help stop human rights abuses anywhere like kids getting killed in their parents wars, your backyard or somewhere else and they do good work regardless of who it is thats being abused.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith I'll be quite simple then. There are thousands of kids around the world that get roped into wars, religious fueds and civil infighting around the world beyond their means to resist, argue or reason with. Because theyre kids They have no choice, they can't fight back, they more often than not get killed and the only time someone seems to care is when they can collect a few political brownie points to the cause. And it's disgusting These kids are apolitical, innocent and have no choice, they are neither volanteers, educated or capable of being pro/no anything and as such shouldnt be used as a political prop of any kind, living or dead. One child who's parents support one thing is not of any more value than the child who's parents support the diametric opposite, I am really loathe to see that you would be digging around using their deaths in this manner because it's little better than the warmongers around the world who would draft them into their miltiias for much the same reasons and ultimately caring little for how their lives end or are twisted for their aims.

I'm a little ripped at the moment, so hopefully this will be somewhat coherent.

It's still not exactly clear to me how you're making that correlation between criticizing Israeli policy when it's a perfectly legitimate example. So speaking out about it's somehow manipulative and disrespecting their memory? I fail to see how that's the case. I think ignoring and dismissing it may more likely suit that categorization to be honest.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Something as empowered grown ups capable of looking after ourselves we forget along the way of how utterly defenceless we where as children. If you find a few $ spare or time to help. http://www.amnesty.org/ They are neither political, religious and will help stop human rights abuses anywhere like kids getting killed in their parents wars, your backyard or somewhere else and they do good work regardless of who it is thats being abused.

Been there, done that, though not terribly often. Except it wasn't Amnesty, but local charities in Austin and one other international organization who's name I can't recall since I'd never heard of it before.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer you are right,because in their fucked up belief,if they can kill the children there will be less terrosists in the future.

the more children die, the more terrorists there are in the future you moron

the more people die in general the more terrorists there will be

everyone is important to someone

fool

Would this girl have died if the Palestinians were a peaceful people that did not condone violence? Would this girl have died if Palestinians were Buddhist?

Would this girl have died if the Palestinians were a peaceful people that did not condone violence? Would this girl have died if Palestinians were Buddhist?

Would this girl have died if the Palestinians were a peaceful people that did not condone violence? Would this girl have died if Palestinians were Buddhist?

Would this girl have died if the Palestinians were a peaceful people that did not condone violence? Would this girl have died if Palestinians were Buddhist?

Would this girl have died if the Palestinians were a peaceful people that did not condone violence? Would this girl have died if Palestinians were Buddhist?

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'm a little ripped at the moment, so hopefully this will be somewhat coherent. It's still not exactly clear to me how you're making that correlation between criticizing Israeli policy when it's a perfectly legitimate example. So speaking out about it's somehow manipulative and disrespecting their memory? I fail to see how that's the case. I think ignoring and dismissing it may more likely suit that categorization to be honest.

How the hell can I make this more clear?
Everytime someone puts a child in harms way or by opportunity as such uses children for this purpose of supporting a cause of conflict do you really know what that does aside from have one dead kid on the news?
It basically encourages people to do it again.
Doesnt matter the side, who they are, if they believe god has a tail and the other side doesnt, someone will do this again for the same reaction the last one got to further their arguments or conflict.
People, if they could be called as such do this deliberately.
(No, I am not even for a second to be convinced otherwise because theres something about seeing and hearing it for yourself that makes any other arguement instantly and utterly irrelevant. It's one of the few things I am not skeptical about and some scars in my psyche which will be with me for life.)
If one dead child will move someone to their side, maybe 10 more dead kids may just very well move 100. Up until the point that it numbs the viewers who will not be appalled or moved unless it is an act of such monstrous evil that someone cannot help but be moved.

That is why I do not subscribe the use of childrens deaths by politically biased people.
The children's lives and deaths cease to be anything more than a statistic in people's minds rather than the monsterous crime that it is. If you where not politically biased I would have taken to heart that you where genuinely concerned for children being ground up like raw meat in adult conflicts.
But youre not and thats quite painful to see.

Lilith, this is not about the child to them. It is about shouting from the rooftops "Israel are child murderers!"

Otherwise, anytime an Israeli child died, they would be equally inclined to start threads about it.

It is just another bargaining chip. "Well Mr. Israeli PM, since the IDF has killed X amount children in the past 10 years, we want Y amount of land.

I would not be surprised at all if Hamas killed that girl just to gain negative publicity for the IDF. They know adult Palestinian deaths don't mean anything to the west anymore since the west perceives almost every adult Palestinian as a potential terrorist. Children are apparently the next front line of terror. Expect more children suicide bombers, expect more child deaths. Numb yourself with whatever you can. This conflict will not die like an innocent child hit in the head with a rock.

Wow. I'm completely baffled.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith How the hell can I make this more clear? Everytime someone puts a child in harms way or by opportunity as such uses children for this purpose of supporting a cause of conflict do you really know what that does aside from have one dead kid on the news?

I'm not sure what "cause" you're referring to other than a just and lasting peace, or how this qualifies as "using children" to support it. What I brought up is a legitimate example of a typical human rights abuse to say the least, and am criticizing it just like a nuch of other stuff I've posted before, which in turn is a criticizm of Israeli policy of collective punishment, illegal military occupation, expansion, and the IDFs standard practice of violating human rights. If I'm doing anything even remotely like what you suggested, it's giving a human face to the conflict, which I fail to see as manipulative.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith It basically encourages people to do it again.

What? How exactly does it "encourage people to do it again?" That's probably the most ridiculous cause effect analysis I've heard. By your logic, we shouldn't have human rights reports eigther and media cencorship on all such matters. And that's going to make it somehow stop?

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Doesnt matter the side, who they are, if they believe god has a tail and the other side doesnt, someone will do this again for the same reaction the last one got to further their arguments or conflict. People, if they could be called as such do this deliberately. (No, I am not even for a second to be convinced otherwise because theres something about seeing and hearing it for yourself that makes any other arguement instantly and utterly irrelevant. It's one of the few things I am not skeptical about and some scars in my psyche which will be with me for life.) If one dead child will move someone to their side, maybe 10 more dead kids may just very well move 100. Up until the point that it numbs the viewers who will not be appalled or moved unless it is an act of such monstrous evil that someone cannot help but be moved.

That doesn't make any sense eigther and how am I responsible for people's desensitization?

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Originally posted by Lilith That is why I do not subscribe the use of childrens deaths by politically biased people.

Again, I fail to see how criticism of Israeli policy and Zionism has anything to do with a political "bias." I guess I have a pro "Native American Bias" too. If a palestinian ideology advocated and was doing exactly what Zionism/the State of Israel is to Israeli, a hypothetical reversal of situation, I'd be condeming that just as much. I fail to see how that would be a "pro-Israeli bias" eigther.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith The children's lives and deaths cease to be anything more than a statistic in people's minds rather than the monsterous crime that it is. If you where not politically biased I would have taken to heart that you where genuinely concerned for children being ground up like raw meat in adult conflicts. But youre not and thats quite painful to see.

Ok, whatever floats your boat. You A) didn't manage to demonstrate that at all and B) I don't see why I need to defend myself against an accusation like that eigther. But it nice to know that's what you think.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Wow. I'm completely baffled. -------all the other stuff-------- But it nice to know that's what you think.

So youre baffled and but going in with the double speak, vitriol and condescention anyway, well at least I can elicit some emotion in people even if its just hatred. Seems to be the only real emotional feeling a lot of boys your age can connect with when confronted with an opposing viewpoint they don't understand.
Just lash out.
Don't think, don't feel, just keep lashing out until in your ignorance you hurt someone enough to go away.

Pity and shame on you about the complete disregard for someones life youre displaying portraying a little girls death to somehow continue your political rants here. Somehow you'll only ever really understand when you have children of your own and maybe wonder what they will grow up like, how they will live and not how they'll be remembered if they get slaughtered in your own personal vendettas and political viewpoints.
Her death and the deaths of many others won't have any effect on the conflict, at least let her have that dignity in death by not using her as a proverbial 'poster child' for a rallying cry for more ongoing ignorance and violence.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Her death and the deaths of many others won't have any effect on the conflict, at least let her have that dignity in death by not using her as a proverbial 'poster child' for a rallying cry for more ongoing ignorance and violence.

Top Post!

Re: Israeli Troops Kill 10-Year-Old Palestinian Girl

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Disgusting.

That's for sure

Fine, don't bother addressing anything I've said and go ahead with your unfounded accusations. I would have responded to your entire post but this:

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Don't think, don't feel, just keep lashing out until in your ignorance you hurt someone enough to go away.

seems like nothing more than emotional blackmail to me. I'm not saying you're intentionaly doing it, and frankly I really don't understand the logic in your argument.

But I don't think you need to worry about this:

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Don't think, don't feel, just keep lashing out until in your ignorance you hurt someone enough to go away.

You remember our PM conversations, so it shouldn't be hard to figure out what I'm talking about. No, I haven't made up my mind about it yet, but this may possibly qualify as that catalyst.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'm not sure what "cause" you're referring to other than a just and lasting peace, or how this qualifies as "using children" to support it. What I brought up is a legitimate example of a typical human rights abuse to say the least, and am criticizing it just like a nuch of other stuff I've posted before, which in turn is a criticizm of Israeli policy of collective punishment, illegal military occupation, expansion, and the IDFs standard practice of violating human rights. If I'm doing anything even remotely like what you suggested, it's giving a human face to the conflict, which I fail to see as manipulative.

This does not triumph any human rights cause?

How can their enemy (Israel) be held to respect human rights when the Palestinians don't respect their own human rights to begin with?


What exactly Israeli "expansion" do you speak of, Israel in the past three years has done the opposite of expanding into the disputed territories (Does pulling out of Gaza ring a bell?). Or is this all for not to you?

And enough with this collective punishment b.s. thats like crying out that North Koreans die because the world refuses to support their regime instead of blaming their regime for their deaths.

Its just always the same arguments, over and over, no Palestinian responsibility for their plight, it is always 150% Israel's fault the Palestinians are in such a fucked up mess.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Her death and the deaths of many others won't have any effect on the conflict, at least let her have that dignity in death by not using her as a proverbial 'poster child' for a rallying cry for more ongoing ignorance and violence.

Great post !

Inadequate Laws and Policies Deny Victims Justice

And this is the type of people some of you on here support and have used this little child's death as a "TOLD YOU SO" card??

How easy it is to turn a blind eye to this type of behaivor by the people you sit here and support.

quote:

Occupied Palestinian Territories: Authorities Must Address Violence against Women and Girls Inadequate Laws and Policies Deny Victims Justice (Ramallah, November 7, 2006) − The Palestinian Authority (PA) has failed to establish an effective framework to respond to violence against women and girls, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. Despite the current political and economic crisis, there are steps that the PA can and should take to address these abuses as a priority issue within its security agenda. PA officials across the political spectrum appear to view security only within the context of the ongoing conflict and occupation, all but ignoring the very real security threats that women and girls face at home. Farida Deif, a researcher in the Women�s Rights Division The 101-page report, �A Question of Security: Violence Against Palestinian Women and Girls,� based on field research conducted in the West Bank and Gaza in November 2005 and early 2006, documents dozens of cases of violence ranging from spousal and child abuse to rape, incest and murders committed under the guise of family �honor.� There is increasing recognition of the problem, and some PA officials have indicated their support for a more vigorous government response, but the PA has taken little action to prevent these abuses. As a result, violence against women and girls is often unreported, and even when it is, it usually goes unpunished. �PA officials across the political spectrum appear to view security only within the context of the ongoing conflict and occupation, all but ignoring the very real security threats that women and girls face at home,� said Farida Deif, a researcher in the Women�s Rights Division of Human Rights Watch and co-author of the report. A combination of discriminatory laws that condone and perpetuate violence and the virtual absence of policies to assist victims of abuse have left Palestinian women and girls with little protection. All Palestinians suffer from the deficiencies of the existing criminal justice system in the OPT, but women pay a particularly high price for officials who are often unwilling to respond adequately to gender-based violence. Discriminatory criminal legislation in force in the West Bank and Gaza has led to virtual impunity for perpetrators of such violence and has deterred victims from reporting abuse. These laws include provisions that: reduce penalties for men who kill or attack female relatives who commit adultery; relieve rapists who agree to marry their victims from any criminal prosecution; and allow only male relatives to file incest charges on behalf of minors. These laws deter women and girls from reporting abuse and provide virtual impunity for perpetrators. With some exceptions, Palestinian police lack the expertise and the will to address violence against women in a manner that is effective, sensitive to the needs of the victim and respectful of their privacy. As a result, police officers often turn to informal measures rather than serious investigations. When questioned, many were unapologetic about their efforts to encourage marriage between a rapist and his victim, sometimes with the assistance of influential clan leaders. They see intervention as a means of �solving� these cases. In addition, police often force women to return to their families even when there is a substantial threat of further harm. �When confronted with cases of violence against women and girls, the Palestinian criminal justice system is more interested in avoiding public scandal than in seeing justice done,� said Lucy Mair, the report�s other researcher and co-author. �A woman�s basic right to life and bodily integrity is seen as a secondary concern at best.� The absence of medical guidelines for doctors also seriously affects the quality of treatment afforded to female victims of violence. The health care system is typically the first and sometimes the only government institution that victims of abuse come into contact with, yet doctors are ill-equipped to deal with such cases. The Ministry of Health has no medical procedures or protocols to guide medical professionals or ministry staff in their treatment of domestic violence cases. Doctors lack specialized training and guidance on how to treat women victims of violence, preserve evidence of the abuse, and maintain confidentiality. While the availability of shelters has increased this year in the West Bank, movement restrictions within and between the West Bank and Gaza make it impossible for some victims of violence to reach these shelters, leaving them without a refuge. Sometimes the lack of shelters and socially acceptable living arrangements for single women has forced Palestinian women�s organizations and the police to house victims in police stations, governors� offices, private homes, schools and orphanages. While it is true that Israeli actions since the outbreak of the current intifada in September 2000 � including attacks on PA institutions and security services, and Israel�s current refusal to remit tax revenues � have significantly weakened PA capabilities, this is no excuse for inaction. Despite its political and economic challenges, the PA has built important new institutions and reformed and unified some laws, such as those governing the justice system and children�s rights. The same must be done to protect women and girls from family violence. Human Rights Watch calls on the PA to establish guidelines for responding to family violence in line with international standards and to train government employees to recognize and respond appropriately to victims. The PA should also enact a specific law criminalizing domestic violence and repeal discriminatory laws that hinder efforts to tackle gender-based violence. �The PA urgently needs to adopt a zero-tolerance policy for all forms of violence against women and girls,� said Deif. �Failing to offer women and all members of Palestinian society the highest protection of the law will only further erode faith in the Palestinian criminal justice system.� Selected testimonies from �A Question of Security�: �He [my husband] used to beat me everywhere. He beat me with a rock on my leg � I never went to the hospital, and I didn�t even tell my parents. I was just thankful to be alive.� − Mariam Ismail (pseudonym), 35 �My problem started with my family. When I was 12, my brother attacked me, attacked me sexually�My brother was 24. He�d hit me. Everyone in my family knew. My father died when I was small, so there was no one to protect me. My brother would even hit my mother. I didn�t report it since there was no one to protect me. I couldn�t tell the police. I was not allowed to even leave the house.� − Nada Omar (pseudonym), 30 �Rape cases are dealt with at the police station as special cases. Most of the time, the result is that they [the rapist and the victim] get married under the carpet to avoid scandal. Rape cases rarely go to courts � In all of these cases, the police want to solve the matter within the family without documentation.� − Palestinian women�s rights activist, Gaza

SOURCE
So I guess the PA is too busy sending in suicide bombers, shooting rockets over the fences and killing eachother rather than stop this ass backward way of thinking about women huh?
Really great people and cause to support
having the rape victim get married to the rapist!!!???!! WTF??

Re: Inadequate Laws and Policies Deny Victims Justice

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX So I guess the PA is too busy sending in suicide bombers, shooting rockets over the fences and killing eachother rather than stop this ass backward way of thinking about women huh? Really great people and cause to support having the rape victim get married to the rapist!!!???!! WTF??

This is why you cannot trust anything that goes on there. It is very possible the 10 year-old girl we're talking about in this thread was killed by Hamas to make the IDF look bad.

I can totally see them thinking "oh theres an IDF tank, lets kill this little girl and the world will blame Israel"

What is stopping them? Respect for human life?

Re: Re: Inadequate Laws and Policies Deny Victims Justice

quote:

Originally posted by Dopey What is stopping them? Respect for human life?

To support any group that uses the tatics the PA uses and thier known treatment of Women as second clss life forms as pointed out in the article above is asinine. One cannot support if the people you support still want to treat its own people as if they still lived in the stone ages.

But that what happenes when Religion is used to map out one's life. On both sides of the fence with this issue. Does the muslim god approve of the Rape of women??
Render unto ceaser what is ceaser's and render unto god what is god's...

Keep it up guys, it reflects alot of character on your part.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Keep it up guys, it reflects alot of character on your part.

How does it?? Just because one points out that the PA is not all roses in the park?? The very least it shows that I for one, do not take sides of two people that use Religion as an excuse to kill thier fellow men. Yes the Palastinian people are getting screwed, but not only are they getting it by the IDF, but also they are getting it from thier own leaders.

SO how does that show my character? Unless you judge one by what you think is an admirable cause to support, while closing your eyes to the men behind the curtain beating his wife and allowing his sons to rape children.

^^ That's exactly the kind of thing I was refering to, but you missed the point apparently.

quote:

Originally posted by Joha yeaaah http://huge-cock-inside-carmen-elec...stiality/163942 regards, Joha

is that Cyrus?

quote:

Originally posted by Dopey is that Cyrus?

It's kind of ironic that you quoted him in your sig.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z It's kind of ironic that you quoted him in your sig.

I think you should re-read the definition of irony.

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