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-- hypothetically if you were raped
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Originally posted by jdat so you adopting is ok but if other people do it they're going to f*ck up the poor kid who was the product of rape?

I never said that.

I said that allowing a pregnancy to go on when you know it is the product of rape, and are intending to abandon it after birth is what is fucked up.

People who will accept a person who is the product of rape, and adopt them are very special... in a good way!

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Originally posted by Tholius she has an iq in the negatives sometimes, leave her be.

I like watching her trying to think critically. It's like doing cocaine with James Brown, you know you'd love to see it happen, but it just never will.

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Originally posted by Theresa I never said that. I said that allowing a pregnancy to go on when you know it is the product of rape, and are intending to abandon it after birth is what is fucked up. People who will accept a person who is the product of rape, and adopt them are very special... in a good way!

so anyone who gives a child up for adoption is despicable?

as for the story above, she said her brother was born with fetal alcohol syndrome and with attention deficit disorder which would have nothing to do with the child being a product of rape. furthermore, why is it even necessary to tell the child he was a product of rape? if he didn't know, and you treated him like you would any other child, why would it be an issue

i don't think how you and i can see eye to eye on this. this is probably b/c we drastically disagree on what is a life. from your perspective it would come from when the child is natural forced out of the mothers body, correct?
for me, it happens much sooner. also, i'd prefer to be at least given the chance to live my life, than have it decided for me. many children are adopted into loving homes, and lead lives they enjoy very much (my two best friends were adopted. my mothers best friend ran a foster home and ended up adopting several of them, including two brothers with FAS, both of whom are in post-secondary colleges right now)

to dismiss a life by saying it MIGHT not live up to your standards is selfish and snobbish at best. who are you to decide that they would prefer to die, all things considered??

(theresa, first time i've ever disagreed with you, and its a nasty one :P)

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Originally posted by spitty so anyone who gives a child up for adoption is despicable? as for the story above, she said her brother was born with fetal alcohol syndrome and with attention deficit disorder which would have nothing to do with the child being a product of rape. furthermore, why is it even necessary to tell the child he was a product of rape? if he didn't know, and you treated him like you would any other child, why would it be an issue i don't think how you and i can see eye to eye on this. this is probably b/c we drastically disagree on what is a life. from your perspective it would come from when the child is natural forced out of the mothers body, correct? for me, it happens much sooner. also, i'd prefer to be at least given the chance to live my life, than have it decided for me. many children are adopted into loving homes, and lead lives they enjoy very much (my two best friends were adopted. my mothers best friend ran a foster home and ended up adopting several of them, including two brothers with FAS, both of whom are in post-secondary colleges right now) to dismiss a life by saying it MIGHT not live up to your standards is selfish and snobbish at best. who are you to decide that they would prefer to die, all things considered?? (theresa, first time i've ever disagreed with you, and its a nasty one :P)

Eh, I'll agree with you on the initial argument against Theresa on the fact that not all parents who put their kids up for adoption are despicable. Other than that I don't necessarily agree with you since I'm pro-choice and you seem to be pro-life. But with this comes a lengthy debate of which you already stated the base disagreement which cannot be altered even through debate: our fundamental difference of opinion on what constitutes life. And since I just recently made an abortion thread, I'd say we not delve too far into that

Also, I wouldn't tell the kid for a while that it was adopted, but I think it's genuine courtesy to eventually let them know once they're old enough to handle it.

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Originally posted by Demoted I'm pro-choice and you seem to be pro-life

Worst two terms ever created. The only purpose of each is to make the other side sound insane & fanatical.

"What, you don't think women should be able to make choices?"

"Oh, so you don't care if innocent people die?"

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Originally posted by Inconspicuous Worst two terms ever created. The only purpose of each is to make the other side sound insane & fanatical. "What, you don't think women should be able to make choices?" "Oh, so you don't care if innocent people die?"

Meh, I don't really like the terms either, but there aren't any other great ones, and those are the most widely accepted.

Playin the devils advocate?

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spitty lady dutch Registered: Nov 2002 Location: i belong on balanzat quote: quote: Originally posted by Theresa Wow... it appalls me that there are women out there that would even CONSIDER carrying a baby conceived from rape to full term. It is ONLY a clump of cells in the beginning. You aren't killing anything, you just aren't sustaining it so that it can become something. Like picking a booger out of your nose. If you would just leave it there, it will grow and become a nice big slimy infection, with a perogative to take over your immune system... OR you could get rid of it, and simply put a stop to that potential. Do you feel bad for picking your boogers? I don't. Therefore... I say abortion. I totally lolled at my own analogy! i'm shocked at your answer! i would totally understand why someone would. this is a possible life, and you can hardly say, just b/c it was conceived of rape, therefore automatically you shouldn't have it. part of the pro-choice perspective is just that - the choice to decide if you would want to bring this fetus to term. and if anyone is able to separate how the child was conceived from the human being it becomes, or is able to turn a horrific event into the gift of a child, then I'd commend them, for having the strength most of us wouldn't

I don't know. I was sitting here wondering why I should/wanted to post in this thread. Maybe I decided to because I thought that I don't have a physical reference nor a natural fear attached.

On a social level I think that it is totally acceptable to abort. Being the worst traumatic assault a woman can endure and conversely, the worst a man can inflict. (Excluding children of course) These facts alone, the hundreds that stem from them not withstanding, are valid reasons to not band aid the situation and spend the remainder of two lifetimes minimum, protecting and patching and pretending it didn't happen.

When people have children for selfish reasons it never ever works out the way they were intended. You never have the chance to ask the child of course but when you haven't even had the chance to ask yourself because a criminal has stolen that from you, who can make wise decisions at that point? It doesn't matter how much love a mother throws at the child, the stigma will always persist. With all of those complications who knows what altered and unpredictable ways will mom take in her approach to raising the kid? Never mind the time bomb of the child finding this all out. That's not a maybe, it a guarantee. At least as far as making the decision anyway.

Then what about the genes? It was a mighty evil breed that just insidiously ruined your life. Do you really want to spin the wheel on making another? Stem cell development won't be there for that one in your fertile years.

Chances are you weren't banking on having a kid right at that point in your life so now your single, broke, likely no job any time soon that's for sure because even after any maternity leave, it's known that the cost of daycare = the average female yearly salary. So as fucked up as you and the child are going to be just on face value, you, the child and the whopping $1000/mo. welfare cheque are stuck in "Compton" for the rest of your life.

I'm sure there is way more but why???
Then again there's always that horror show of the asshole getting out in 2-3 years and beginning his custody preceding. Yeah!!!

Maybe if your lucky the poor demented little person decides (and yes, they start making decisions. Most of them you hate) that they finally want a dad and go out trying to find the fukcer. Next thing you know, your looking around for the dullest screwdriver you can find so that you can just cram it in your neck, right then and there.

Bahhh! I guess when I look at it there are enough mistakes of this sort and they, as a rule, are tragic stories. "pro choice" or not that is reality. Brutal? Of course, has to be. 100 times worse then the way with which it would be procreated. Anything that starts off that bad....? C'mon, no brainer, isn't it?

I know that this all sounds easy to say or "ya, but that's a mans point of view" or that it's just so cold and calculated. But the fact that remains is that it's hard enough when a loving couple have everything going for them. It has to be a decision and not a feeling that makes the call here. Looking at the big picture of a lifetime, it's successful because of good decisions and the love part colors it all in.

It's kind of hard to figure out how I'd react, being a guy, but since I'm not the type who has any moral qualms about abortion I'd probably go down that path, both for the sake of myself and the potential child. I just couldn't feel right about bringing someone into the world from such a messed up situation, knowing that it'd probably create a massive amount of hardships for the both of us they'd have to be raised through.

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Originally posted by dallastar rape is a terrible thing and hypothetically I would rather not think about it. take fukkin self defence classes and kick that muthafukker's ass to the curb! you would have so much anger against this mother fukker that you would want to pull that curb move that's in American History X! seriously, this is not a hypothetical question ~ it's a serious question!

Are you capable of an intelligent contribution to a thread or do you relish living disconnected from the real world?

One friend of mine knocked up another friend of mine during a casual hookup. The chick was going through a pretty wreckless period in her life where she had been partying and sleeping around a lot. The dude made it clear from the start that he had zero interest in being a father and that he would pay for all of the costs of an abortion. He's a good person and he would have also supported her through the difficult emotional aspect.

She decided to have the child. I think she did it because her life was going nowhere and she was lonely. Bad reasons. The short version is that the kid has serious behavioral problems and the chick told me that if she could do it over she would have had the abortion.

As odd as it sounds these decisions shouldn't be made from a totally emotional perspective.

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One friend of mine knocked up another friend of mine during a casual hookup. The chick was going through a pretty wreckless period in her life where she had been partying and sleeping around a lot. The dude made it clear from the start that he had zero interest in being a father and that he would pay for all of the costs of an abortion. He's a good person and he would have also supported her through the difficult emotional aspect. She decided to have the child. I think she did it because her life was going nowhere and she was lonely. Bad reasons. The short version is that the kid has serious behavioral problems and the chick told me that if she could do it over she would have had the abortion. As odd as it sounds these decisions shouldn't be made from a totally emotional perspective.

She decides her life is going nowhere so she decides to screw the rest of it over by carrying the kid? Good call there :|

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Originally posted by Taranis She decides her life is going nowhere so she decides to screw the rest of it over by carrying the kid? Good call there :|

Xactly, and she's paying the price. I think it's fairly common that people have kids because they think it will fill a void in their lives. As someone already said, having children for selfish reasons is risky.

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Xactly, and she's paying the price. I think it's fairly common that people have kids because they think it will fill a void in their lives. As someone already said, having children for selfish reasons is risky.

Just seems like a kind of odd decision, even for someone like her. When I get the feeling that my life isn't going anywhere particular it makes me want to go out and party, cause hey what is there to lose, the last thing I want to do is tie myself down with responsibility and potentially create a negative environment that could permanantly affect someone elses life in the process.

That said, you have to kind of feel for the guy in that situation, though I guess he could have always worn a condom, it has to suck to be stuck paying child support or raising a kid because of one stupid mistake without even having a say in the abortion issue.

abortion

would be doing more of a favor for the child. who the fuck wants to come into the world like that? you can't keep a lie like that forever...

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Originally posted by jdat some of the serious replies in here shock me terribly.

The fact that there are any is an absolute shame.

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Originally posted by dallastar it's serious question

holy fuck do you even know what hypothetical means??

Well, we adopted my brother when he was 2 and he clearly remembers it, so it would be stupid to try and lie to him about it. Also, we didn't have any information on his biological parents, when he turned 18 he decided to do a search and this is what the agency had to tell him, and he feels better knowing it because he feels like he knows more about himself, and believe it or not ISN'T devastated by it, i think it just helped him come to terms as to why his mum surrendered him. I am pro choice as long as that person makes an INFORMED decision, being they know what they are doing and what is going to happen and what possible side-effects are etc. I do not blame anyone that would get an abortion due to rape. The only reason i say that i would carry it and probably keep it is because i CARRIED a baby and i have her, (obviously diffrent circumstances being married) but i know what it's like to have a baby inside you and also to raise one. even if it was a product of rape i would give that baby all the love it deserves. And it wouldn't need to know why they came into this world unless they asked as an adult. Theresa, just as you choose to believe it is just a clump of cells at the begining, i believe that it is a life at conception, and when i was first pregnant, i pictured my baby as a clump of cells, then a weird dinosaur looking thing, then a embryo, fetus and so on. I think adoption can be a good thing, there are alot of familys that aren't able to have babies, my sister in law being one of them. However, people need to stop using it as a form of birth control (as well as abortion).

When someone posts questions about abortion I typically just say "If your mom was in that situation would you want her to abort you or have you and give you up for adoption?"

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Originally posted by XaNaX When someone posts questions about abortion I typically just say "If your mom was in that situation would you want her to abort you or have you and give you up for adoption?"

quality of life v. life at all?

yea, i'd rather be aborted than get bumped around from foster home to foster home as a child of rape, and be abused and neglected (foster homes are sickening these days) my entire adolescent life and become fucked up.

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Originally posted by Slylee quality of life v. life at all? yea, i'd rather be aborted than get bumped around from foster home to foster home as a child of rape, and be abused and neglected (foster homes are sickening these days) my entire adolescent life and become fucked up.

Who says you are going to end up in foster homes? With older children yes, nobody wants them. It is hard as hell to find adoptive parents for older children and teens because typically if they are up for adoption at that age they have been taken from their parents because of abuse/neglect.

However babies are a completely different story. I personally know someone who just adopted a baby. It took them years and thousands of dollars to complete the adoption. There is a huge backlog of people wanting to adopt babies in this country. Their adoption was an open one where the child can know who its birth mother is. However in the case of a pregnancy created by rape you could very easily have a closed adoption. The birth mother would never have to see the child and there would be no reason to tell the child that they were a product of rape.

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When someone posts questions about abortion I typically just say "If your mom was in that situation would you want her to abort you or have you and give you up for adoption?"

You can't really put it that way, it's not as if by aborting the baby you designate them an alternative existance which is inferior to this one. They simply don't come into existance at all.

If you're going to take that line of argument, why don't you just go the whole 9 yards and claim contraception is wrong because it denies children the opportunity to be born or something. It's exactly the same thing until the baby actually reaches consciousness, it's just a matter of where you halt the process. Should we have a moral issue with people not having sex every night as well, since every time you don't fuck, you lose another opportunity to save a poor baby from nonexistance. Where do you draw the line before it becomes our moral duty to bring as many babies as possible into existance.

To be perfectly honest, I don�t really think that I�m cut out for pregnancy and motherhood with babies/infants. I am way better with children and teenagers and I honestly can see myself adopting a couple of kids who are grown already, instead of a newborn or having my own.

I don�t have the patience for potty training and diaper changing and not getting any sleep for the first couple of years and breast feeding and all that shit. I dunno, maybe I�m not giving myself enough credit, but I would have no problem adopting a 7 year old or even a 14 or 15 year old. They need love and a home too.

you could always just con God so you can abort the baby, if that's the issue.
like, you are raped and then you are told you are pregnant.
so you build a giant metallic shelter in your backyard that doesn't allow radio waves for God's supersonic (idk what this word means) ears to hear, then install a landline telephone inside, but make sure a PI has investigated to make sure there are no wiretaps.
now, do the exact same thing to your friends backyard, but don't tell them because you'd have to build another shelter to tell him the plan, because if you just say it, even if you whisper, god will hear and te plan will be foiled.
tell him to go to his shelter at a specific time with a boombox and play some drowning out music. call him from your shelter and tell them you want, in 2 months, to put a small amount to laundry detergant in one of your 2-liter coke bottles.
time is important. if God sees you going into a shelter that can't be monitored and a week later, your baby is dead, FOILED. also, in 2 months you'd probably forget about the coke bottle and you won't be crying like a fag before you drink the bottle and then..FOILED. plus, you get a pretty good "I'M SHOCKED" face when the doctor says your baby is dead.

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Originally posted by Taranis You can't really put it that way, it's not as if by aborting the baby you designate them an alternative existance which is inferior to this one. They simply don't come into existance at all. If you're going to take that line of argument, why don't you just go the whole 9 yards and claim contraception is wrong because it denies children the opportunity to be born or something. It's exactly the same thing until the baby actually reaches consciousness, it's just a matter of where you halt the process. Should we have a moral issue with people not having sex every night as well, since every time you don't fuck, you lose another opportunity to save a poor baby from nonexistance. Where do you draw the line before it becomes our moral duty to bring as many babies as possible into existance.

This is a ridiculous argument and completely different than what I said. There is a big difference between not creating something and creating something and then destroying it.

If you use birth control the baby never comes into existance. If you abort a baby you created it, it comes into existance, and then you kill it before it can be born. Have you ever seen one of those 4D ultrasounds? You can make any horseshit argument you want but that is a fucking living person inside a woman and if you abort it you killed it. Its no different than if I put a gun to your head and killed you.

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Originally posted by Slylee To be perfectly honest, I don�t really think that I�m cut out for pregnancy and motherhood with babies/infants. I am way better with children and teenagers and I honestly can see myself adopting a couple of kids who are grown already, instead of a newborn or having my own.

I was exactly like you until my daughter was born. Its amazing how fast your life changes and you become perfectly able to handle that stuff.

I do have lots of respect for women who adopt unwanted children rather than have children of their own. They are definately no less of a mom just because they didn't carry that child. Really, its good for you because being pregnant does nothing good at all for the female body both during and after the pregnancy.

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