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-- Live in the now - For an Angel was good 9 years ago!
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quote:

Originally posted by Jarvmeister Produce one with old technology, one with new. So long as the same level of skill goes into each, out the other end will come a better production, INO, from the new technology.

What do you mean same level of "skill"? That the creativity of the two tracks is equal? Maybe yes, thats the case in this imaginary experiment, but this is not what happens in reality! Why? Because "for an angel" in comparison to most of todays trance tracks DON'T have the same level of creativity even if you like it even if you don't. Its HUMANS that make the tracks not computers!(Thank God!)Its the emotion and the inspiration that spawns out melodies capable of inducing goosebumbs not bloody EXTRA RAM!


And your car analogy is very loose. Cars are made for driving. hence a more technologically advanced car will have a better performance in comparison to a less advanced one. Music is not assesed in terms "performance",e.g. in how much "clear" is the production of a track. Ofcourse if you want to compare two tracks in the production level, the newer one wil be better. Music is determined though by how good it is and clearly, technology can't change the "goodness" of the track, even in the case that super-advanced quantum hyper-synthesizers are used. Its the human Brain that does it, and from what i know, the human brain doesn't evolve so fast!

quote:

Originally posted by Arraias Forbidden Fruit the version of the album Seven Ways is faaaaaar superior.

Agreed!

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Bitterness towards what, exactly? You realise I have everything at my disposal to become exactly like you. I know exactly how to use Discogs and I'm fully capable of employing P2P. All I'd need to do is surrender my social life and I could fire snob-bullets with the best of them. You don't have anything I cannot easily obtain. There's absolutely nothing special about you. But besides that, I've been heavily criticised recently for dragging numerous threads into the quagmire of self-indulgent arguments, so I'm doing my best to cut down. Maybe if you look at your own posts and the ridiculously loaded arguments you're making you could figure it out yourself, but let's cut the logical processes out of it briefly and I'll use a simply one. You recently said your list of favourite tracks would be much like Cobalt's. I think you know full well that Cobalt knows a shitload about trance throughout its history. Now... take a wild guess at what one of his self-admitted favourite tracks is.

Cobalt listens more to late 90's progressive trance iirc. He's heard Harthouse, but what else? There's no context.

And I have no problem with self-indulgence. I get really tired of people claiming that For An Angel (or some other whored out track) is the best track from that era. Well what else have you heard? "Well, uh... there's... Age of Love." NO SHIT! If that's all you've heard, then OF COURSE they're your favorites.

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN What do you mean same level of "skill"?

Take one person, split him (or her!) in two.

I'm trying to make the only variable in the 'experiment' the technology.

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quote:

Originally posted by distant Prove what? My argument? Or that I know more?

Distant is a good name for you...

Thanks for the chat everyone - really enjoyed it.

Bed time for me now.

Cheers all.

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quote:

Originally posted by RickyM Distant is a good name for you...

EDIT: You know what... I'll just let your taste in music speak for itself.

I heard Deniro - Evolver, last year for the first time.

I think it rocked, and totally blew my mind.

The track is fucking 10 years old.

And that was just an example.

Nowadays everybody is copying eachoter, imagine, eating your shit over and over again, the quality of the shit is bound to decrease each time.

And for each shit, a label is picking up a piece of it to sell on online stores for no cost at all.

why is this tune so great?

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle I heard Deniro - Evolver, last year for the first time. I think it rocked, and totally blew my mind. The track is fucking 10 years old.

if you like that one check out De Niro - Elan Vital.
ace tune

quote:

Originally posted by Jarvmeister If that was truely the view of the consumer, then car manufacturers would design their cars like this today. This highlights the 'subjective' view you, and indeed I, have. This also applies to old and new trance. Sone people like that retro sound. I dig piano, like in Anjo - Sunrise, but a production like that today would not cut it. But I still think it rocks.

Well, i believe it's because it takes alot more time and effort to create shapes and details that today would'nt be effective to make enough profit. Anyway, this should'nt turn into a car argument.

It's my subjective opinion indeed, but i still think that there was alot more effort and creativity in producing ealier, that now has gone more over to dj'ing as Rebel pointed out.

distant, don't be a bloody bag , this thread doesn't examine the experience and expertise of TAs lol.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarvmeister I'm trying to make the only variable in the 'experiment' the technology.

Yes, thats what i'm trying to tell you ALL this time. That music, is not determined solely by the "technology" variable. It is rather mostly determined by the "aesthetics" variable.


If you are going to compare two tracks in the production level, then yes a newer track will be better one ok?Agreed?




BUT


If you are going to compare two tracks in GENERAL, than the most AESTHETIC (something which is ofcourse subjective) will win. And Aesthetics are NOT determiend by the production level (maybe they are but mildly) BUT by the overall Structure of the song, the qualities of the melodies and the rhythms! So, please, leave this car analogy asside (or computer, or fridge or whatever other techonological advance comes in mind) because music is not determined by technology.Cool?

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quote:

Originally posted by distant Cobalt listens more to late 90's progressive trance iirc. He's heard Harthouse, but what else? There's no context.

Yes, and here comes the thought train. Why the fuck would you need to have listened to every 12" on every label from 90-94 to know exactly what makes good late 90s prog trance? I don't think you're going to deny to me that the late 90s were a good time for trance, so it's not about taste. I may as well start bossing you about and demanding to know how much you know about piano concertos before you can offer a valid opinion. Unless you're going to tell me there's a magic number of classic trance records you have to play before you gain some esoteric objective perspective of every sub-genre of trance from any era, all you're doing is making the argument "If you haven't listened to a lot of records in the sub-genre I like, then I'm going to call you wrong and clueless." Which is a crock.

We know what classic trance is. Not all of us are completely clueless. We know the template of original, pure, proper, correct trance. We may have listened to hundreds and hundreds of tracks in the style and yet we still prefer something different from you. There's absolutely no logic or reasoning that is connecting your argument of "Classic trance fans don't like this non-classic record" with "This track is definitely shit and everyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know anything about trance". You've just made a massive, arrogant assumption made out of a whole chain of small, arrogant assumptions.

EDITED.

quote:

And I have no problem with self-indulgence. I get really tired of people claiming that For An Angel (or some other whored out track) is the best track from that era. Well what else have you heard? "Well, uh... there's... Age of Love." NO SHIT! If that's all you've heard, then OF COURSE they're your favorites.

This is rhetoric begging argument. You're making huge assumptions and exaggerating them beyond all measure to try and back up your faulty logic. For all you know, Jarvmeister has listened to six thousand records from that era and still likes For An Angel, and even that has FA to do with how many classic trance records he's heard.

Y'know, I actually agree with a lot of your view. I don't like FAA and I never have. I think PVD has offered much better trance in almost every respect. I'd even maintain that it's a pretty atypical PVD track all told, out of line with a lot of his music from the era and it shouldn't be held as his trademark track as it actually is. But your arguments are fucking appalling and you're not going to win anything with them.

quote:

Originally posted by RebeL9 if you like that one check out De Niro - Elan Vital. ace tune

Oh. Thats gonna be a hard one to find. But thanks for the tip

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN because music is not determined by technology.Cool?

Yes. Next Topic plz!

Most people who I see praising For An Angel are new to trance, listen to the newest, trendiest crap, and so forth. I'm talking about hundreds of people that all follow that same description, so I think my assumption is valid.

And there's more. Let's look at the Discogs crowd. All (well, most) fine people whose opinions I respect because they've stuck to it and created a base of knowledge when it comes to old techno and trance. And nobody likes For An Angel.

So we have two vastly separate groups here, judging the same genre of music. If it were a life or death situation, who would I trust? Well, the newbies have heard about... five records. Contra Frankie Bones, who owns tens of thousands.

Eh.

Anyway, to conclude, if you truly think For An Angel is the best record of 94, I will most probably assume you're clueless (unless something else makes me think you aren't). Because after all, that opinion doesn't mean squat unless I know it's been formed through extensive listening.

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Yes, and here comes the thought train. Why the fuck would you need to have listened to every 12" on every label from 90-94 to know exactly what makes good late 90s prog trance?

I wasn't saying that at all, I think my comment might have been confusing. All I was saying is that I don't consider him an early 90's trance enthusiast. Sorry if that confused you.

To me PVD's earlier works like "For an Angel" is up there with classics by the likes of legends such as Donna Summer, BT, Kraftwerk, Prodigy, Depeche Mode and so on.

groundbreaking stuff!

Yes it is old.

No I will not stop listening to "For an angel" anytime soon.

quote:

Originally posted by distant Anyway, to conclude, if you truly think For An Angel is the best record of 94, I will most probably assume you're clueless (unless something else makes me think you aren't). Because after all, that opinion doesn't mean squat unless I know it's been formed through extensive listening.

he was talking about the e-werk remix if i remember correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle Oh. Thats gonna be a hard one to find. But thanks for the tip

if you like elan vital then you should definitely check out covert dub by chritian west!!

quote:

Originally posted by justin groundbreaking stuff!

See this is exactly what I'm talking about, SYSTEM-J.

What in the world would make anyone think this track is groundbreaking?

were talking about '94 right... I was still listening to nirvana and smashing pumpkins back then so I really can't talk can i?

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quote:

Originally posted by distant I wasn't saying that at all, I think my comment might have been confusing. All I was saying is that I don't consider him an early 90's trance enthusiast. Sorry if that confused you.

Erm... nine years. From 2007. Equals 1998. Y'know... the time when For An Angel was updated and became hugely popular. He's not talking about the 45RPM version at all. No wonder your arguments seemed to be full of holes- you've got completely the wrong time period.

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Erm... nine years. From 2007. Equals 1998. Y'know... the time when For An Angel was updated and became hugely popular. He's not talking about the 45RPM version at all. No wonder your arguments seemed to be full of holes- you've got completely the wrong time period.

Yeah, looks like we're on about different things entirely. Not that the reworked mix is any good either.

Re: Live in the now - For an Angel was good 9 years ago!

quote:

Originally posted by Jarvmeister PS Mr Mystery - if you're going to say anything, try and make it a little bit positive. Think happy thoughts...

He's been suspended for 2 weeks

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