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-- Jehovah's Witnesses - religious insanity?
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Originally posted by EvilTree Just a quip here. Science is not against religion, but are compatible with each other. Ah well. God has a lot to answer if I ever get to heaven

that's only partially true. They are often at odds with each other. Like for example, creationists suggesting that the dinosaurs existed at the same time as man when they clearly did not, or ingoring our nearly complete genetic similarity to chimpanzees (over 99%).

I myself do not disbelieve in a God. obviously there is some kind of higher being, power or old guy out there or else why the hell are we, or ANYTHING, here to begin with? Its actually quite scary. My own opinion is that religions have been created to explain the unexplainable and, as we progress scientifically, technologically, culturally, etc, we begin to see what we thought 2000 years ago might not exactly have been right. But that's just me.

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Originally posted by Cro_Addict I understand the passion, but I don't like people coming to my door if I don't want them there. I try to be polite when they come. I pretty much always say "Thank you, but I worship Satan in my basement". This usually leads to an awkward silence then they just turn around and leave.

LOL! Yeah, I really learned how to handle rejection and anger, let me tell you! I remember one time, tho, where a lady was so angry about not "allowing gays in our church", and I was able to explain that it's not the person, but the act, and how because I had been a fornicator (and became a fornicator again!) that it was all the same in God's eyes. I had quite a few gay witness friends, who just didn't have sex with men (or women obviously!). The lady really calmed down and thanked me explaining it that way. Did you know that Prince made the news when he went preaching during the Super Bowl?

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 that's only partially true. They are often at odds with each other. Like for example, creationists suggesting that the dinosaurs existed at the same time as man when they clearly did not, or ingoring our nearly complete genetic similarity to chimpanzees (over 99%).

The thing about the Bible is that it is very open to interpretations, and often there is much that is not said. (Not to mention possible translation issues of old texts and languages)
For example, if the Big Bang theory really did start the universe, what cause those two atoms to suddenly run into each other? (Higher power perhaps?)
So really, it is hard to actually use the Bible to put a concrete statement concerning the creation or evolution, but neither does science do a perfect job of disproving all notions from the Bible. (And as I stated, both science and religion can co exist)

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I myself do not disbelieve in a God. obviously there is some kind of higher being, power or old guy out there or else why the hell are we, or ANYTHING, here to begin with? Its actually quite scary. My own opinion is that religions have been created to explain the unexplainable and, as we progress scientifically, technologically, culturally, etc, we begin to see what we thought 2000 years ago might not exactly have been right. But that's just me.

You're quite right. Human desire to satisfy curiosity has caused a lot of religion to sprout up, and a lot of those 'old' religions are adapting to modernity.

But because humans are flawed by nature and we make mistakes, it is likely that how we interpret the Bible or the Qu'ran or the Book of Mormons or whatever is also flawed.

Humans have also used religion for own means that caused a lot of suffering in history.

However, for religions like Christianity still exists with billions of people professing themselves as Christians through out the years. Surely there must be some profound truth in what Christianity (and what other religions preach) says.

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Originally posted by Cro_Addict I understand the passion, but I don't like people coming to my door if I don't want them there. I try to be polite when they come. I pretty much always say "Thank you, but I worship Satan in my basement". This usually leads to an awkward silence then they just turn around and leave.

LOL I should try that next time ....

I usually just tell them that if there goal is to bring people closer to God, my family is already religious ... usually then they just say oh ok... then walk off

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 yes I would say I concur with that broad line of thinking. I am not religious at all and am glad my dad resisted my mom's urging to have me sent to Sunday school, attend church, etc, etc. Then I discovered Darwin at age 14.....

This raises an interesting question in itself. Are children (in this case babies) of any religion? Is it fair to force a religion upon a person of any age, based on the beliefs of their parents?

That certainly doesn't fly for politics. You never hear anyone say 'she's a progressive conservative' child. Because it's not considered acceptable to force politics on a child. For some reason (that our society has accepted for thousands of years), religion gets a free pass in this respect. Muslim child, Catholic child, Jewish child - all very normal terms.

I'm not trying to put religion and politics on the same page here, as many people will have much stronger convictions when it comes to religion. I'm just asking questions and trying to apply some logic.

Again, I recommed the Richard Dawkins book - the God Delusion - for both theists and atheists alike. It raises many great issues and calls into question the blind following of religion.

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Originally posted by Revival160 Again, I recommed the Richard Dawkins book - the God Delusion - for both theists and atheists alike. It raises many great issues and calls into question the blind following of religion.

Ah, the blind following of religion.

Perfect recipe for religious leaders to abuse their power.

Hence why I get leery when someone claims to speak in the name of God or whoever.

i totally dug this thread - thanks for your opinion Muzzybear - I may not always agree with you but I love that you ahve taken the time to share that

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Originally posted by jennypie Well it's THEIR belief. That's why the world needs educated health care professionals to advocate for these kind of people, to let them know there ARE options for them. Sure, to US it's retarded...but what's MORE retarded is the lack of education on the matter.

It would be entirely different if there weren't options on this, but the blood transfusion info you posted is one way which is alright. I'm Orthodox but have relatives from my Dad's side who are JW's from the Uk. They're awesome people. I just don't really take part in anything bible related when they have people over for that kind of stuff...as for their beliefs as long as they have options for certain situations I'd say it's for the better but I've seen where it can have a detrimental effect on things as well.

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Originally posted by Abercrombie Take the Jehova's Witness quiz. http://www.thebentinel.com/jw-quiz.php I got "You are 40% Jehovah's Witness!"

I got 33% then read the little thing after wards. All I have to say is WOW.

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Originally posted by Revival160 This raises an interesting question in itself. Are children (in this case babies) of any religion? Is it fair to force a religion upon a person of any age, based on the beliefs of their parents? That certainly doesn't fly for politics. You never hear anyone say 'she's a progressive conservative' child. Because it's not considered acceptable to force politics on a child. For some reason (that our society has accepted for thousands of years), religion gets a free pass in this respect. Muslim child, Catholic child, Jewish child - all very normal terms. I'm not trying to put religion and politics on the same page here, as many people will have much stronger convictions when it comes to religion. I'm just asking questions and trying to apply some logic. Again, I recommed the Richard Dawkins book - the God Delusion - for both theists and atheists alike. It raises many great issues and calls into question the blind following of religion.

this is why i"m glad not to have been "brainwashed". I don't mean to use that term negatively but if you are told from an early age that this is true and that is true and if you do this, you'll burn in hell, etc, etc....that's pretty much your parents/family molding your mind for you and you'll likely never change your beliefs.

My parents never forced anything on me and although I got the whole "you go to heaven when you die to be reunited with your loved ones" BS as a kid, I always knew there had to be more to life than that.

Well I heard a discussion about it on CBC Radio today over lunch, and I therefore got a chance to hear others across many fields weigh in on this matter (health practitioners, Canadian law specialists, Jehovah Witness's, and a man that specialize in religious and medical ethics).

After hearing this debate (BOTH sides were very powerfully discussed, this wasn't a one sided debate), I support these JW's right to practice their belief(s).

I also find it hard to condemn them (as many were doing originally in this thread) for not wanting to go through with this.

Ppl say "how can you do this, don't you love your children?"

Well... I say now "don't these parents love their god?" Their god laid it out CLEARLY in scripture that blood is sacred and should not be taken (whatever the "exact" wording was, but I'm aware that it was CLEARLY stated... it wasn't like this is a matter where one could be misinterpreting that JW bible statement wrong or that it was unclear and really open to interpretation!).

That's a pretty fucking hard choice... you're asked to decide who you love and would do more for: your newborn children or the god you have worshipped your entire life!

If you allow this transfusion in the hopes of saving your kids lives, then you're betraying your god! How can you possibly think of doing that!?!

And if you don't allow the transfusion, then you're essentially allowing your babies to die when they may have had a chance to live...!

Additionally, I'm not sure, but if a JW were to consciously allow a transfusion, I wouldn't be surprise if such an act could jeopardize their chance of getting into heaven or reaching and existing in that place or 'state of mind' that is after life (I'm not familiar with their exact belief system there.) Man... if that's true, shit, that's a massive thing to ask of a person... Disobey your god and try to help the chances of your kids living, but then be forced to live the REST OF YOUR LIFE knowing you betrayed your god and your religions beliefs, and now you may never attain whatever is waiting for you after life.

How can you judge someone for not wishing to make that choice? (assuming that such an act could cause such a thing in their belief system... this was just a hypothetical idea of what such an act may or could mean in the future of JWs both in this life and the next.)


Also, if you did this and got extricated by the JWs... that is SERIOUS SHIT for them! There is a JW (well she was raised that way anyways) at work who's a friend of mine, and she was was kicked out of their "temple" (their version of the church, if I got the term right) for getting pregnant when shes was a teenager, and that was MASSIVE thing (for her, her parents and the this entire JW community).

You are publicly denounced in front of your temple. The elders stand in judgement over you publicly at temple. All ppl of this JW community (temple?) in Collingwood were told they were not to associate ANY LONGER with Cindy. That's hardcore. You're entire social circle could also disappear then too. Close, close friends you have in the faith could/would now be forbidden to associate with you at all... wow.

That would make me second guess wanting to betray my god and faith's explicit scriptures too.

The parents have to weight all these things in. I feel so bad for them, the strife they must be facing. What a fucking SHITTY-ASS CHOICE they are forced to face and live with here -- WHATEVER their choice, either way.


And just to state, I'm an passionate atheist, not a Witness, so it's not like I'm speaking here of beliefs that I hold personally. I am merely placing myself in their shoes and analyzing the issues they are facing based on their beliefs, and all the consequences they are having to face bc of any choices they make here.

Having to choose between your god and your children is a DAMN SHITTY choice to be faced with. Period. Most (young) ppl don't strongly enough believe in god nowadays to really understand the gravity they face bc their conviction in god is SO STRONG! For too many, god is often look at as a comforting convenience, not someone/something we really worry about if we do something he hates (ie. sex before marriage, drugs, etc). The JWs don't see it that way at all. If you have a big choice: your god's ways or death (for yourself, for a different example), well you chose death for yourself then. This is your god and you worship him, he will look after you. They take that seriously. And good for them for doing that. If you're going to have a conviction, take it seriously, not just when it suits you and fits comfortable in your life!

They shouldn't be judge as harshly as they are being. And that's fucking coming from an atheist who strongly dislikes all religions. I am merely trying to be objective, as we all should be when placing judgments on this situation with these or any other JWs.

As already stated and mentioned above, Canada grants all ppl the right of religious expression, and we are fucking taking that right away from there here too, I may add. Horrible.


Jem

Think of this. For all you people who believe in total religious freedom (I do not), consider this practice in Africa.

In many African societies, religion and culture dictate that females be circumcised and "sewn up" in their childhood. Is this a humane practice? Absolutely not and it would NOT be allowed to happen here on religious grounds, you can count on that.

Is not letting a child die when they could be saved through a simple medical procedue abuse of that child's rights?

I'm actually a little surprised a few of you on here would actually sit idly by (if you were a doctor) and let an infant die because their parents held a very uncommon religious belief that prohibits the transfusion of blood.

Religious freedom is tolerable...to an extent. This is one of those cases where I would draw the line and save a life.

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 Think of this. For all you people who believe in total religious freedom (I do not), consider this practice in Africa. In many African societies, religion and culture dictate that females be circumcised and "sewn up" in their childhood. Is this a humane practice? Absolutely not and it would NOT be allowed to happen here on religious grounds, you can count on that. Is not letting a child die when they could be saved through a simple medical procedue abuse of that child's rights?

Good point you make up... where is the point of exclusion to this relgious freedom drawn??

How far do we have a right to interfer in the lives of ppl just practicing their right to their own relgious beliefs?

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I'm actually a little surprised a few of you on here would actually sit idly by (if you were a doctor) and let an infant die because their parents held a very uncommon religious belief that prohibits the transfusion of blood.

Actually, they CANT. Its why these babies were taken into custody. Canadian law as it stands says doctors/the government needs to step in for the chidlren's rights. It's why this all happened in the first place.

It wasnt just bc a couple doctor's felt the situation was morally wrong and felt they wanted to do something about it... legally, they had to. So wether if they thought it was wrong or right, they were forced to step in regardless.

This matter was discussed on the radio programme too. They had a professional and law-abiding obligation to do so.

quote:

Religious freedom is tolerable...to an extent. This is one of those cases where I would draw the line and save a life.

That I live my life without (silly, IMO) religion and any belief in the notion of some god, I am forever happy about. Schei�e, what shitty choices one has to make (and not limited to only this one presently either) bc of a figure they choose to believe in. Can't imagine, personally.

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