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and once you have defined a human define personhood. Could an alien life form still be a person and accorded the rights of a person even though they are not human? and then if you still think that a fetus isnt a person, because let me tell that it IS a human. You cant get past the fact that our DNA makes the species. So make a list of what makes a person. Then if you say no the fetus still isnt a person, does that mean you shouldnt treat it like one? Because you can bet your 2 cents that your definition of what a non-person is will include disabled people and young people under the age of 18. So Im interested in what you think a person is and how that fits in with who we can end the living and growth processes of.

Orbax, why do you attack my beliefs when I clearly tell you that I can understand your point of view even if I do not agree with it.

you are obviously not going to change my mind, and I will never change yours and I'm not trying to...I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I'm very interested in other people's beliefs and I try really hard to see things from their side of the fence. There is no point in attacking someone's points of view and there is no point in further replying to this thread if you aren't going to properly discuss your views vs. mine like I am trying to do.

I understand that to you that is a human. Okay I accept that and I'm not trying to argue with you that it's not a human. I'm saying that to me it is not a human at that point. Instead of arguing and pointing fingers why don't you just discuss your beliefs?

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Waxen, btw, I've enjoyed our debate, you bring up a lot of interesting points and helped me see your view clearly

Although Im catholic and my religion's against it I beilive abortion should be legal ....but it doesnt really matter 2 me

Im saying I am curious as to what you define a human as. You say it isnt human. Then what is. Im asking you to make you think. There are few things I hate worse than someone with an opinion they dont know about and cant say why the believe it other than :I just do: by saying you think it isnt a human you obviously have some idea of what a human is. So what is it? Im curious. That would help me see your point of view. And I want you to define personhood for me. THat also helps me understand you. Instead of being offended at my questions and taking them personally instead see them objectively and try to see what they are really asking. They arent attacking you or your beliefs. I am trying to understand how your ideas fit in with other schemas. When people see their ideas can wash over into other areas where it doesnt make sense they can either say "F*** YOU i still think im right" or they can say "hey wow I didnt think of it that way, let me get back to you". All I wish to do is know why you think these things and have you know that you know why you think these things.

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Originally posted by tiesto14 well the fuck are u to say whether or not a woman should or should not have an abortion....it is her body ......u are so quick to say everyone should own up to their consequences...i am so fucking sure that you pay for all your mistakes...ya ok u keep saying i am stupid...well u have yet to point out why abortion is bad...besides the fact that people should pay for their mistakes....it seems like u would rather have a baby born into this world regardless of the fact that it is not wanted and will more often then not be resented every day of its life and run the risk of being abused mentally and physically...and dont say it doesnt happen cus everyone knows it does.... so whats your reasons besides owning up to responsibilities....

the whole point pure and simple is this. You arent prepared to have a kid, dont have sex. the abortion issue is null with that idea.

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Originally posted by Orbax Im saying I am curious as to what you define a human as. You say it isnt human. Then what is. Im asking you to make you think. There are few things I hate worse than someone with an opinion they dont know about and cant say why the believe it other than :I just do: by saying you think it isnt a human you obviously have some idea of what a human is. So what is it? Im curious. That would help me see your point of view. And I want you to define personhood for me. THat also helps me understand you. Instead of being offended at my questions and taking them personally instead see them objectively and try to see what they are really asking. They arent attacking you or your beliefs. I am trying to understand how your ideas fit in with other schemas. When people see their ideas can wash over into other areas where it doesnt make sense they can either say "F*** YOU i still think im right" or they can say "hey wow I didnt think of it that way, let me get back to you". All I wish to do is know why you think these things and have you know that you know why you think these things.

Up until a certain point I believe there really isn't much there except for some dividing cells...but then when the fetus starts to develope human-like things, or pre-developement type things like stubs for arms and legs, holes where eyes will soon be, a brain that starts to process, that's the cutoff. I think that is around 8 or 9 weeks. By then most women have discovered they're pregnant and have decided whether or not they want to keep it.

I suppose I believe a human would be the fetus after it has started developing more human-like things, until then it is just cells...which yes, are alive, but so is sperm and people kill sperm with spermicide...and so are a women's eggs, but those are stopped with hormonal contraceptives. To me those are a part of ourselves and they are alive, but they are only a part of us, not an actual person...they can create life but they are not life yet. It is the same with the little 1/4 inch tadpole/baby: it is very close to becoming life but at that point it is only a combination of the egg and the sperm and it is not quite life yet.

just so im getting this straight. its human if it looks humanesque?

and I think sperm and eggs arent human either because both are just half of an unzipped DNA strand.

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Originally posted by Orbax just so im getting this straight. its human if it looks humanesque? and I think sperm and eggs arent human either because both are just half of an unzipped DNA strand.

well until it starts developing things that will turn into a human it really is only sperm and egg with a couple extra cells. I'm wondering though, if you don't believe that sperm or eggs are human then why do you believe that the moment they connect they are human?

because the DNA strands go together? I suppose I can see your point but I don't believe that a few celled organism is human...I think it needs to develope a little bit more first...don't forget DNA is the building blocks of life, it's not life itself. It takes more to have life...human life requires blood and it requires a brain big enough to process certain functions. I think those things start to develope at the same stage as the other "humanesque" features do (i like that term by the way )

Im trying to stay away from the fact that I think as soon as they conjoin they become human not only because the 2 srands come together in the unique pattern that will create a human, but that a soul enters the picture. but besides ensoulment, I think there is another issue. If people dont consider it to be human it has the potential to be one. Some people say you cant measure potential, but in science you can measure the potential energy of a rock sitting on a cliff, You know exactly what it will do and how much force it will strike the ground with. and here is another food for thought. It seems that you are saying that it isnt human unless it can carry out the vital life function neccessary for a human to live. now again Im just saying things to make people think. Im not trying to attack you. So that definition carries over to the fact the a newborn couldnt live if not nurtured and supported for a couple of years. It has none of the ideas and knowledge that makes living as a human possible. There are so many grey transitional periods in the development of a fetus where it acquires a little more of this, and some more of that, that it becomes more and more human all the time, but is it human yet. If you say at the point where it grows into the extended spinal column "pseudo-tail" and looks less like the tad pole and that makes it a human, the real tough question now comes into play. Under all legal systems only "persons" have rights. Not trees, not rocks. When would you say it is illegal to have an abortion. What constitutes personhood. I understand that in a moral sense we shouldnt kill the fetus after that 9 week period. Because our religious beliefs differ Ill just say we at least both agree to disagree about the 1 second of DNA combination to the 9 weeks you mentioned, and agree after that would be immoral. This question of legality is a slightly different one. Under the premise of only persons have right, therefore the right to life is something only a person would have, when does a fetus claim personhood, and how is it different from non persons. Im just asking to get your opinion, because new thoughts are fun!

I beleive that PERSONHOOD begins at conception is a "religious belief", not a "provable biological fact". Mormon and some Fundamentalist churches believe in personhood at conception; Judaism holds that it begins at birth and abortion is not murder; ensoulment theories vary widely within Protestantism. The religious community will never reach consensus on the definition of a "person" or when abortion is morally justified.

I also dont like how people who beleive abortion should be ILLEGAL call themselves "pro-lifers". The "pro-life" concerns of abortion foes are only for fetal lives, not the lives of women or unwanted babies. "Pro-life" is a term used to make anti-abortion and anti-choice seem positive and good.

Then the pro-lifers say abortion "should not" be legal in the U.S. Abortion must be stopped. The right to life must be protected.
But laws have NEVER stopped abortion, but only relegated it to back-alley butchers.

The hypocrisy is clear when illegal abortion was the leading killer of pregnant women in the U.S., there was no Right to Life Organization.

The best is when pro-lifers say the fetus is a individual and who are we to decide whether or not he or she should live and that the fetus is in no real sense "part" of the mother, but is a separate and a distinct human being.
THAT IS JUST MORONIC The fetus is totally dependent on the body of the woman for its life support and is physically attached to her by the placenta and umbilicus. The health of the fetus is directly related to the health of the pregnant woman. Only at birth are they separate.

And for people who say a woman CAN NOT have an abortion if she accidentally gets preganant from having unprotected sex or by a mistake with a contraceptive and they should pay for the fun by having the baby are not very intelligent.This vindictive, self-righteous attitude stems from a belief that sex is bad and must be punished. Motherhood should never be punishment for having sex. Forcing a child to be born to punish its mother is the ultimate in "child abuse". If you beleive in aborting a fetus for rape then why not for a mistake?..other then for a punishment.

Not to mention if these woman kept these babies they didnt want because abortion was ILLEGAL many unwanted babies would be abused, neglected and/or battered or even killed by unloving or immature parents. Many women make mistakes in having babies they don't want and can't love or care for.


So then since a woman decides to have sex and unfortuantley gets preganant even though she didnt want...you think she should keep the baby even if she does not want it, can not afford it, and is not emotionally ready for it...

So in other words you punish this woman for making a mistake.,..and that punishment is not 2 months in jail, not a fine but a BABY that she is NOT ready for...dont you feel that is a form of CHILD ABUSE?..to bring a child into the world where he/she will not be wanted and may not be loved for...and maybe even resented....the woman may be distant from the child or not care for it as she would a baby she wanted...or she may end up throwing it in a dumpster or killing it herself and hiding it somewhere..because she is not ready///

Thats a pretty harsh punishment for the WOMAN and the BABY....a baby should not be a punishment to proove to the woman she must pay for her consequences and to show her she made her bed and now she must lay in it...that baby is a life sentence...pretty hard penalty for sex...dont you think..


But facing ones consequences is one thing...i mean if you say take a murderer and put him in jail for killing someone then that punishement is just...and if you take a robber or rapist for commiting their crimes in jail that is also just..

BUT to take a woman who screwed up and made a poor decision and tell her she has to live with that for life is kind of crazy.....imagine you had to pay for all the stupid and naive things you have done in your life.....

a baby WHEN it is born is a human being...NOT and i repeat NOT a punishement or a criminal sentence to someones poor or ignorant choices.....it is a living and breathing creature and to make a woman who does not want it have it is CHILD ABUSE...and if you want i can get you statistics on all woman in the U.S. who have had children who didnt want them and show you how so so many babies where beaten,tortured,neglected,verbally and mentally abused......

Saying a woman must face her consequences and keep the baby is not far from saying a person who Overdoses on drugs should die and NOT be helped because he/she made a stupid decision to take too much or too dangerous drugs....there is not much difference there except 1 is life and 1 is death...either one is a cruel and harsh punishment for bad decision making....

WOW!

This is crazyness.. but I love all the different aspects everyone is covering! I like how everyone is taking the time to actually sit there and type out their thoughts on the matter. I see these huge long novels being written.. and it's great.

I think Religion is a WHOLE different subject. Sure it has lots to do with abortion and if it's right or wrong but Im not even going to get into the religious side of it.

Tiesto. Stop with the ranmbling denunciations of what you call "pro lifers" your definitions are ludicrous, and scenarios half baked. You keep going over the whole punishment thing like it is a new topic, when it has been covered already. You are like an old man chewing stale vomit with your remarks. This thread has gone from rabid attacks to a calm discussion on when WE think personhood and humanity begin. It isnt about how other people are wrong any more. If someone says something you disagree with make the point as something that maybe they didnt consider istead of a "You are wrong fuck you" attitude that you like to have. For a second when I started reading your post I thought you might actually answer a tough question, but was quickly disappointed when it turned into a religious issue. We have already agreed to not have religion in this debate because that is another issue. "Personhood" is not a religious concept. It is a legal one. Only persons have rights. Thats why blacks in America used to not have rights, they were not considered people. The definition of personhood changes all the time and the question is what is the best definition that is the most fair and who will it grant the "right to life" to. This also isnt a debate on whether or not the fetus is a different entity. Although your points did not make any proof against it because you were basing humanity and personhood on dependency and biological autonomy, which would then cancel out a lot of people in this world. Please try to stay on topic. If you have some honest, well-thought, opinion that you think will make people stop and say "i never looked at it that way before" then post it. But when you come in machine guns flaring, and bombs dropping, it makes people want to run to the foxholes and get OUR machine guns. It puts peoples backs up and makes them not want to discuss any more. It makes them want to fight you. So in recap. Stay with the discussion, be calm, think before you type, and try to bring only new and fresh ideas that might be genuinely thought provoking to the table.

and here is a thought provoking story.

You are in the outback of australia. You hear a gun shot. You run over to where you heard the noise and you see a hunter standing over a largish mammal. As you get closer you realize it is the body of a Tazmanian Wolf, something thought to have been extinct. On the small hill above you, you see another wolf pacing back and forth. It is the wolf's mate. You call the authorities and they capture it. Upon examination they find that it is 1 week pregnant and that it is a male fetus. The pregnancy phase in these wolves opens them up to higher chances of disease. If the wolf comes to term and has the male baby the species could be reintroduced and one of the most fascinating species on this earth could be seen again. If you kill those few cells in her that at most could be called "a few cells" the wolf wont be running the risk of disease and it will be healthier. Should you as a vet reccomend killing the cells so the she wolf will be healthy, or let them grow and fill their "potential" to be a wolf.

Orbax...u ever heard of a thing called PARAGRAPHS?????...

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Originally posted by Orbax Tiesto. Stop with the ranmbling denunciations of what you call "pro lifers" your definitions are ludicrous, and scenarios half baked.

my definitions of pro-lifers are VERY accurate...sorry

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax You keep going over the whole punishment thing like it is a new topic, when it has been covered already. You are like an old man chewing stale vomit with your remarks. .

exscuse me u newbie...dont be rude and obnoxious it makes your arguement look that much more childish...grow up with your degrading repulsive comments and welcome yourself to adult-hood...and i keep going back to punishement because your the one who states that a woman should pay for her mistake by having a baby...and have yet to say why or back it up with anything circumstantial..

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax If someone says something you disagree with make the point as something that maybe they didnt consider istead of a "You are wrong fuck you" attitude that you like to have. .

show me where i did that.,,..matter of fact QUOTE me where i said that to anyone....ur the one who just insulted me if i am not mistaken.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax We have already agreed to not have religion in this debate because that is another issue. "Personhood" is not a religious concept..

it sure as shit is...and abortion is very much so a religious issue...most pro-lifers use the Bible and God for their reasons as to why abortion should be illegal..u canot not debate abortion with out surfacing religion...especially when most anti-abortion activists do so in the name of religion.,...sorry

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax If you have some honest, well-thought, opinion that you think will make people stop and say "i never looked at it that way before" then post it...

well i am the only one as of this point to post FACTUAL evidence to reasons why abortion should be legal...you have not and still refuse to do so.....

to be honest i realy dont even care...cus abortion is legal and will more then likely always remain legal....so you and your prolife fanatics can keep up your cause for it will it lead you to nowhere ....enjoy.....

and learn to write in paragraphs...its a very simple concept

/pats tiesto on the head/

that was a very cute attempt

and no, this isnt a religious debate. To use religion as an argument you have to have both sides believing in God. If I say "in the Bible it says thou shalt not kill" and you say "I dont believe in God, so what significance does the Bible have other than being one of millions of books in the world" that puts us at an impasse. So only use legal terms and original thoughts. and again on the punishment, it was brought up several times and responded to several times. Read the last 4 pages if you need to help remembering. Im not going to recap 4 pages for you every time you forget. The old man comment was an apt analogy, it means that even though you are harmless and bring nothing new, you are still offensive. And I would hardly call myself a fanatic on this issue. I have an opinion and I believe in it through fact and thought, if that makes me more "fanatic" than the common person who gets opinions out of the random opinion generator and doesnt care why or how they came to believe such a thing, I guess that would be true. And you still havent answered the question.

well anyways, this thread has mainly died down to bugbite and myself, so Im gonna stop reading/replyin to this. It was an interesting discussion everyone

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax and no, this isnt a religious debate. To use religion as an argument you have to have both sides believing in God.

well dont tell me that...its the majority of your fellow anit-abortionist who use God's name to condem it....

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax on the punishment, it was brought up several times and responded to several times. Read the last 4 pages if you need to help remembering. Im not going to recap 4 pages for you every time you forget.

and so has the abortion issue...waaaayyy before u came....notice how i am the only one is responding to this thread really...everyone else has been there done that...i am jus bored

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax I have an opinion and I believe in it through fact and thought, .

yes thought...however what facts have u shown?

I would koin in the debate...but I will admit that I don't have any hard facts to cover... except that "I think it's wrong"... I already went over this though...how part of me thinks it's okay, and part doesn't. I would like to see this debate continue!.
Let me get this straight...Tiesto believes in abortion...and Orbax doesn't?

~S~

I believe in abortion as long as there is no other way of facing a big problem

Don't you think that's what life is about though? Facing big problems...and learning from your mistaks?

-S

I think people should have the right to choose but personaly if i got a girl pregnant i would want to keep the child

i go both ways on this, it isnt for me decide really, its the parents choice and it shouldnt me mine or anybody elses business.

not to be dramatic but thats the thinking that made the germans turn their heads the other way as millions of jews were torched.

That which is overabundant cannot be valuable. Hence, life is not valuable.

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