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-- Those pesky Iranians at it again.
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quote:

Originally posted by Dervish Just to play devils advocate... under the new anti-terror laws here you or I could be detained for is it 30 days?... with no charge. I doubt we'd be able to talk to our consulate we'd only get a lawyer

Very good point.

I'm guessing the Patriot Act in the US could lead to a similar situation.

Hell, just crossing the border between Canada and the US, you can get locked up and questionned at customs pretty easily, going both ways across it too.

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish Just to play devils advocate... under the new anti-terror laws here you or I could be detained for is it 30 days?... with no charge. I doubt we'd be able to talk to our consulate we'd only get a lawyer Just something that popped into my head. But I still recon the Iranians committed a snatch here really.

Your correct it's 30 days. What I find strange is yet there is no charges brought on the Royal Navy personel. If they were in Iranian water surely a warning would be suffice instead of snatching them?

It's hard to compare terrorism and normal warfare stuff like border disputes etc. If it was an SAS or SBS team with C4 charges, building plans to government buildings etc in Iranian waters then yes it's an open act of aggression, this was just a normal patrol.

A handful of marines and sailors bording a boat holding a cargo of cars is hardly an offensive action.

But we could get pulled in for just being "suspected". I'm just trying to look at it another way really. I agree that it's a crazy (I suppose) thing to do from their end.

But can we throw stones when if one of their citizens was here went to the wrong mosque talked to the wrong types and wham he could be locked up for 30 days with no trial?

The border could be contested maybe in their minds our guys were in their water?

We'll get them back thats for sure (edit: the troops), but they might (with their own nationalists) score a few points and solidify a few ultra-right wing positions (what the probable intent is).

End of the day I don't think the US and UK can afford to goto war again without UN backing. And I really doubt they would get it under pretty much any circumstances after Iraq.... so maybe the Iranians just know they are in a strong position and can chance their hand (I mean the state of the African oil producing nations just now...)?

So does Iran have their own Gitmo?

Dun Dun Duuuuunnnnn....

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish But can we throw stones when if one of their citizens was here went to the wrong mosque talked to the wrong types and wham he could be locked up for 30 days with no trial?

We're not uncivilised barbarians though like them. Look how lenient the UK was towards Hamaza and co at the Finsbury Park mosque, preaching hate against British people well before Iraq yet he claimed asylum here? It really fucking annoys me.

The UK is soft, it has the most over politicially correct system by far and the liberal ethnic minority infested media backs this up. Not meaning to stray off topic but look at all the inquest made into Stephen Lawerence etc, it's sad that poor lad died and the ignorance display by met but how much investigation went into that case?

If that very situation was vice versa and me or you ended up in the morgue. I don't think system would care one bit, they'd put it down to a street robbery gone wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj O'Callaghan We're not uncivilised barbarians though like them. Look how lenient the UK was towards Hamaza and co at the Finsbury Park mosque, preaching hate against British people well before Iraq yet he claimed asylum here? It really fucking annoys me.

Oh my, uncivilized barbarians? I thought we were past this childish conceptions. Are you by any chance suggesting that these people are inherently evil and incapable of change? Are they born as uncivilized barbarians? Maybe if you were born there and not in a nice comfortable suburb of the UK where you can grow without worrying about famine, repression or death you would be able to better understand these uncivilized barbarians.

quote:

The UK is soft, it has the most over politicially correct system by far and the liberal ethnic minority infested media backs this up. Not meaning to stray off topic but look at all the inquest made into Stephen Lawerence etc, it's sad that poor lad died and the ignorance display by met but how much investigation went into that case? If that very situation was vice versa and me or you ended up in the morgue. I don't think system would care one bit, they'd put it down to a street robbery gone wrong.

Well, I guess the UK can go back to being uncivilized barbarians. That way they won't lose face and your english pride won't be hurt. Everyone knows pride is more important than lives! Don't negotiate, it makes us look weak! Oh no! There goes my manliness!

Seriously, minorities have to be loud and obnoxious and constantly fight for their rights. Why? 'Cuz the majority will quickly forget they exist if not. I'm not familiar with the stephen lawerence case, but whatever your point agression of any kind will only proliferate agression, specially in this day and age.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r So does Iran have their own Gitmo? Dun Dun Duuuuunnnnn....

US has a monopoly on that silly.

And for the rest of you lot that can't evaluate things from other people's point of view (i.e. the Iranians), maybe you should go back to pre-school with the rest of the human population that still hasnt develop the ability to understand that other people also have thoughts and interpretations of situations. Maybe the kids in preschool might be able to help you grapple with the concept.

quote:

Originally posted by venomX Oh my, uncivilized barbarians? I thought we were past this childish conceptions. Are you by any chance suggesting that these people are inherently evil and incapable of change? Are they born as uncivilized barbarians? Maybe if you were born there and not in a nice comfortable suburb of the UK where you can grow without worrying about famine, repression or death you would be able to better understand these uncivilized barbarians.

No their not born uncivilized barbarians. Some have bee exposed to situations your average person will never see or some are from an upper class family then end up letting extreme brands of religion take over their life. Incapable of change difficult one I think when people are set on a certain lifestyle they'll never change. Inherently evil no I'm not that racist.

I'm not from a nice and comfortable suburb of the UK far from it. I'm from a working class background and I'm from a multi cultural area believe it or not.

Hamza though is an uncivilized barbarian he gets what he deserves, I'd send him back to the Egypt or better still the Yeman where he's wanted. since his Marriage to a Britain muslim turned out being a complete farce, he don't have a leg to stand on and why should my taxes have to go on him sitting in a British prison?

quote:

Well, I guess the UK can go back to being uncivilized barbarians. That way they won't lose face and your english pride won't be hurt. Everyone knows pride is more important than lives! Don't negotiate, it makes us look weak! Oh no! There goes my manliness! Seriously, minorities have to be loud and obnoxious and constantly fight for their rights. Why? 'Cuz the majority will quickly forget they exist if not. I'm not familiar with the stephen lawerence case, but whatever your point agression of any kind will only proliferate agression, specially in this day and age.

The UK's fine apart from following Bush into Iraq we're alright, we have a right to be proud of our country and her history even though some of it was very violent and brutal. I agree in a diplomatic solution to every disagreement, there is no need let pride get the better of you. If you want a fine case of taking pride too seriously look at the football war 1969 between El Salvador and Honduras.

Their a bit too loud sometimes. Stephen Lawerence was a black teenager who got stabbed to death by five white men back in the early 90's. It was a shocking and unprovaked attack and the blunders made by the Met lead to no one being imprisioned for the crime. It was very sad as his parents never saw justice. Yet it got so much media coverage tons in fact I mean tons. A white lad up in Glasgow called Kriss Donald got stabbed and burnt alive by a group of Asians, yet it reached 6 page news and get mentioned after the major headlines on the news.

Why is the UK pissed that video of the detained sailors and marines was shown on TV? They're concerned this was "coerced". Now, while the one girl's statement was obviously written by the Iranians, they were clean, being fed, apparently not abused, and also being held together in their own uniforms (apart from her headscarf).

I find it odd that they're pissed, yet enemy combatants get held in Gitmo for years, without trial, charge, access by their consular officials...hell, they even get flown around the world on an unmarked plane while they get beaten! Also, how well has the intel resulting from US coercion worked for them?

The hypocracy on both sides of this situation is absurd.

you know who we need to save the day?

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse Why is the UK pissed that video of the detained sailors and marines was shown on TV? They're concerned this was "coerced". Now, while the one girl's statement was obviously written by the Iranians, they were clean, being fed, apparently not abused, and also being held together in their own uniforms (apart from her headscarf). I find it odd that they're pissed, yet enemy combatants get held in Gitmo for years, without trial, charge, access by their consular officials...hell, they even get flown around the world on an unmarked plane while they get beaten! Also, how well has the intel resulting from US coercion worked for them? The hypocracy on both sides of this situation is absurd.

I'm not saying that there isn't a double standard, however it's not difficult to prop the soldiers up making them appear clean and being fed for a brief camera appearance. There's nothing to say that outside of that time frame they aren't being held in poor conditions.

When not on camera, no one can say what their living environments are like, but I'm guessing it would take a little bit of "coercion" to make soldiers read statements like they have. At least I would like to think that trained soldiers, living in "approved" detainee conditions wouldn't be so quick to speak out in complete opposition of their government and career.

day 7...come and gone.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono I'm not saying that there isn't a double standard, however it's not difficult to prop the soldiers up making them appear clean and being fed for a brief camera appearance. There's nothing to say that outside of that time frame they aren't being held in poor conditions. When not on camera, no one can say what their living environments are like, but I'm guessing it would take a little bit of "coercion" to make soldiers read statements like they have. At least I would like to think that trained soldiers, living in "approved" detainee conditions wouldn't be so quick to speak out in complete opposition of their government and career.

LOL

tranceaddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > New Accounts of Torture by U.S. Troops...

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z LOL tranceaddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > New Accounts of Torture by U.S. Troops...

Oh come on man...he's trying to save time

What we need is an old fashion ass kicking. The government of Iran is asking for it and I really hope the UK shows that they have the minerals and does not let this drag out.
Iran's leaders really need to get their head out of their islamic fundi ass and step up. No one wants a war, but some people need to know that they are a asking for trouble. I really hope the UK gets their people back....

Plus Iran's leaders are all focking retarded. They first post coordinates that show the sailors were in Iraq waters, then when the realize that GPS and their own coordinates shows that they were in the wrong, they give a new set of them. just as bad as WMD's in Iraq, no one is buying it.
But I guess Iran's leaders need to be taught a lesson.
THe sad thing is, these leaders are hurting thier own people.
Ajhamagiveheadlongtime Needs to Die in a Fire along with all of the islamic leaders that want to keep Iran and all muslims back in the stone ages.....
I mean they won't even let thier people have high speed internet...

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX What we need is an old fashion ass kicking. The government of Iran is asking for it and I really hope the UK shows that they have the minerals and does not let this drag out. Iran's leaders really need to get their head out of their islamic fundi ass and step up. No one wants a war, but some people need to know that they are a asking for trouble. I really hope the UK gets their people back.... Plus Iran's leaders are all focking retarded. They first post coordinates that show the sailors were in Iraq waters, then when the realize that GPS and their own coordinates shows that they were in the wrong, they give a new set of them. just as bad as WMD's in Iraq, no one is buying it. But I guess Iran's leaders need to be taught a lesson. THe sad thing is, these leaders are hurting thier own people. Ajhamagiveheadlongtime Needs to Die in a Fire along with all of the islamic leaders that want to keep Iran and all muslims back in the stone ages..... I mean they won't even let thier people have high speed internet...

first off you are an idiot,second nobody is asking for a war here even Iran,but you seem to want one badly,but then again after all this is coming from someone who was in the army so you wouldnt know any better.

Also any of you remember when the Americans arrested 5 Iranians from the embassy in Iraq? what happend to them?and why havent they been released yet?I think this current situation has alot to do with happend in Iraq.

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer first off you are an idiot,second nobody is asking for a war here even Iran,but you seem to want one badly,

By thier actions they are asking for it. The Coordinates they first gave and then how the are crying. "The UK has an attitude, so we not release the woman."
And no, I do not want a war, if people would calm down, and stop thinking that thier Myth is so much better than an other person's myth then all would be cool.

quote:

but then again after all this is coming from someone who was in the army so you wouldnt know any better.

Hey you daft ****, I am was not in the Army, NAVY!! Say it with me 3 times, NAVY, NAVY, NAVY!

quote:

Also any of you remember when the Americans arrested 5 Iranians from the embassy in Iraq? what happend to them?and why havent they been released yet?I think this current situation has alot to do with happend in Iraq.

Uh, excuse me, they defected cause they were tired of the religion of peace, Islam, focking up the world as of today.

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX What we need is an old fashion ass kicking. The government of Iran is asking for it and I really hope the UK shows that they have the minerals and does not let this drag out. Iran's leaders really need to get their head out of their islamic fundi ass and step up. No one wants a war, but some people need to know that they are a asking for trouble. I really hope the UK gets their people back.... Plus Iran's leaders are all focking retarded. They first post coordinates that show the sailors were in Iraq waters, then when the realize that GPS and their own coordinates shows that they were in the wrong, they give a new set of them. just as bad as WMD's in Iraq, no one is buying it. But I guess Iran's leaders need to be taught a lesson. THe sad thing is, these leaders are hurting thier own people. Ajhamagiveheadlongtime Needs to Die in a Fire along with all of the islamic leaders that want to keep Iran and all muslims back in the stone ages..... I mean they won't even let thier people have high speed internet...

Don't even get me started. I'd love to smear that f*cking t*wat in that picture up a wall.

I don't want a war but Iran needs to just end this madness now. They need to remember who got their guys out of the Iranian embassy siege in 1980 or are they so ungrateful they forget that?

Well here is one right in your back yard.



I see pictures like this and cringe.....

They could be christians bitching, and I would still have words with them.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z LOL tranceaddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > New Accounts of Torture by U.S. Troops...

1. I already talked about the double standard.

2 Are you trying to justify Iran's abuse of prisoners (if there is any going on) with the way the US treats theirs? I hope not.

Does Iran actually think they are fooling us with these fake confessions?

Essentially, we are already fighting Iran. Forensically, advanced explosives have been traced back to Iran and have directly resulted in more than 100 coalition deaths.

Their government is lead by irrationality with not a care in the world to the cause-&-effect of their actions. The government doesn't care about unemployment, an unjust justice system, or the problems of their own people. All they want to do is blame it all on America. I can't wait to see them crash and burn by their own people. Where's the counter-revolution that we need to be supporting??

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono I'm not saying that there isn't a double standard, however it's not difficult to prop the soldiers up making them appear clean and being fed for a brief camera appearance. There's nothing to say that outside of that time frame they aren't being held in poor conditions. When not on camera, no one can say what their living environments are like, but I'm guessing it would take a little bit of "coercion" to make soldiers read statements like they have. At least I would like to think that trained soldiers, living in "approved" detainee conditions wouldn't be so quick to speak out in complete opposition of their government and career.

Fair enough, but for the last 6 years, Bush & Blair have insisted that everyone trust them, that they're right and they know what they're doing.

All anyone got were lies, abductions, abuses and fabricated shit.

What ever happenned to the western-style of due process? Innocent until proven guilty? Isn't that one of the things that the troops are over there fighting for? The good 'ol western ways of life?

Come on.

While I'm certainly not in favour of the Iranian regime and it's collection of nutjobs, the troops were shown to be in good health, and I think that even the Iranians aren't foolish enough to screw up this latest case in the public relations war.

The American administration was just pissed that they got caught! They weren't actually remorseful that the abuses and abductions actually happenned.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Does Iran actually think they are fooling us with these fake confessions?

Well, they seem to be fooling the media who's totally lost sight of the fact that this is what happens to hostages in this area of the world. They are told to read statements condemning their homeland, etc etc.

This happens with journalists and aid workers all the damn time! Do you see the same amount of outrage to try and get those people back? Hell no.

Of course these statements are written by the Iranians. The captured soldiers would be fools NOT to read them since avoiding further confrontation in this case keeps you safe.

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse While I'm certainly not in favour of the Iranian regime and it's collection of nutjobs, the troops were shown to be in good health, and I think that even the Iranians aren't foolish enough to screw up this latest case in the public relations war.

The inherent problem with using the "look fine" arguments in regards to coercive interrogation tactics is that not all of them will cause outward signs of ill-health. Especially at the beginning of the process.

You can make people extremely uncomfortable without harming them, enogh so that they will tell you what you want if they believe it will get them out of the situation.

I don't know if there are such tactics being used here, but I find it highly unlikely that these sailors would start suddenly all coming out and saying this after a week instead of right away if it were indeed a situation of "oops sorry, we crossed the imaginary line on the way back to our ship, apologies mate."

MrS

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse Well, they seem to be fooling the media

Fool the media??! *gasp*
Say it isn't so!

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