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-- Are Dj's Musicians?
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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I believe the difference here is that the symphony is actually generating the notes that the audience hears whereas the DJ is simply putting pre-recorded music stored on one media or another into a machine that transferes the recorded data into audiable music. In the former the people are required in order to make the music.

Just because electronic form eliminates the need for humans to huff and puff to manipulate sound, that does not change the amount of creative input a DJ requires to manipulate.

A DJ still dictates what sort of sound is to be played using cds or mixer, like how a instrument is played to dictate what sort of sound is to be made.

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Originally posted by StereoPrincess i just think that if garbage cans can be condidered musical instruments (a la Stomp), then so can turntables. i mean there are many things that you are adjusting while DJing, it's not just pressing play and hoping things line up. Playing with the sound on a vinyl/CD is like playing an instrument.

Don't get me wrong... I respect the talents of DJs (god knows I can't do it so I have to tip my hat) but there is a significant difference between manipulating a pre-recorded sound and actually creating that sound.

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Originally posted by EvilTree Just because electronic form eliminates the need for humans to huff and puff to manipulate sound, that does not change the amount of creative input a DJ requires to manipulate. A DJ still dictates what sort of sound is to be played using cds or mixer, like how a instrument is played to dictate what sort of sound is to be made.

The difference is in creating vs. manipulating. Musicians create the sound, without them there is no sound. Creative input is not what makes a musician, the act of creating music makes one a musician. Is a DJ an artist... sure, I'll buy that, but a musician... no.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard The difference is in creating vs. manipulating. Musicians create the sound, without them there is no sound. Creative input is not what makes a musician, the act of creating music makes one a musician. Is a DJ an artist... sure, I'll buy that, but a musician... no.

So if I make farting noise with my armpit, it's music if I make successive farting noises with varying level of loudness and duration? (Heck, many percussion instruments share same principles)

Well, in my music class in high school, I was taught that music was human organization of sound. Any sound. No matter what form.
Musician is the human person who is organizing the sound.

*shrug*

I fail to see what is difference between making sound through an instrument and making sound through a cd player/mixer/Live PA box.

Unless you're using only your human body, you are still required some sort of tool to make that sound. I see a DJ's gear as electronic form of instruments

I have my ARCT level of classical training as a concert trumpet player.

I think we can all agree that that considers me a musician based on the previous conversation and responses that have been generated.

That said, I find DJing far more difficult and challenging than anything I have ever attempted on the trumpet (which you all have agreed and established is a viable musical instrument).

I think one of the most important parts of this conversation was when someone brought up the term of a "modern musician". Musicians constantly evolve, as does the music, as does the means of performing the content. Regardless, music was created for enjoyment and for the public (as an art-form: art is defined as "the products of human creativity").

As a musical DJ there are so many things that put you into the form of a musician. Sure you may be playing someone else's music, but since I was in grade 6 learning the trumpet I also have been playing someone else's music. When playing the trumpet I had to concentrate on the flow of my air-stream, proper finger technique for effective valve control, tongue control for proper note articulation, paying attention to my conductor and the rest of the band/orchestra/ensemble to make sure everything flowed together, and most likely a bunch of sub-conscious things I learned over the years that I just did fluently without thinking about it.

As a DJ I am responsible for choosing the next tracks to play, making sure they will match harmonically and with the correct key match, making sure the crowd is reading and enjoying the tracks properly, EQing the tracks both for live effects and for mixing purposes, beatmatching, manipulation of the track, speeding it up/slowing it down, performing crowd interaction, and again things I'm sure I do sub-consciously just by having a good time.

Does it make me any less of a musician because I'm a performing an art-form of playing music through technology and not blowing through a stainless steel mouthpiece? I think not.

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Originally posted by Chris Allen I have my ARCT level of classical training as a concert trumpet player. I think we can all agree that that considers me a musician based on the previous conversation and responses that have been generated. That said, I find DJing far more difficult and challenging than anything I have ever attempted on the trumpet (which you all have agreed and established is a viable musical instrument). I think one of the most important parts of this conversation was when someone brought up the term of a "modern musician". Musicians constantly evolve, as does the music, as does the means of performing the content. Regardless, music was created for enjoyment and for the public (as an art-form: art is defined as "the products of human creativity"). As a musical DJ there are so many things that put you into the form of a musician. Sure you may be playing someone else's music, but since I was in grade 6 learning the trumpet I also have been playing someone else's music. When playing the trumpet I had to concentrate on the flow of my air-stream, proper finger technique for effective valve control, tongue control for proper note articulation, paying attention to my conductor and the rest of the band/orchestra/ensemble to make sure everything flowed together, and most likely a bunch of sub-conscious things I learned over the years that I just did fluently without thinking about it. As a DJ I am responsible for choosing the next tracks to play, making sure they will match harmonically and with the correct key match, making sure the crowd is reading and enjoying the tracks properly, EQing the tracks both for live effects and for mixing purposes, beatmatching, manipulation of the track, speeding it up/slowing it down, performing crowd interaction, and again things I'm sure I do sub-consciously just by having a good time. Does it make me any less of a musician because I'm a performing an art-form of playing music through technology and not blowing through a stainless steel mouthpiece? I think not.

chewed up and spit out.

DJs are Entertainers and not musicians....nowadays more then ever. Are they artists? Yes. Are they talented? Yes.

Producers are musicians...electronic musicians but musicians none the less.

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6 results for: musician Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source mu�si�cian /myuˈzɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[myoo-zish-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation �noun 1. a person who makes music a profession, esp. as a performer of music. 2. any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Origin: 1350�1400; ME musicien < MF. See music, -ian] �Related forms mu�si�cian�ly, adjective Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, � Random House, Inc. 2006. American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source mu�si�cian (myōō-zĭsh'ən) Pronunciation Key n. One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music. [Middle English musicien, from Old French, from Latin mūsica, music; see music.] mu�si'cian�ly adj., mu�si'cian�ship' n. (Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage� Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright � 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source musician c.1374, "one skilled in music," from music (q.v.). Sense of "professional musical performer" first recorded c.1450. Online Etymology Dictionary, � 2001 Douglas Harper WordNet - Cite This Source musician noun 1. someone who plays a musical instrument (as a profession) 2. artist who composes or conducts music as a profession WordNet� 3.0, � 2006 by Princeton University. Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version) - Cite This Source musician1 [mjuˈziʃən] noun a person who is skilled in music Example: The conductor of this orchestra is a fine musician. Arabic: موسيقي، موسيقار.

Why post the definitions if they detract from your argument, not add to it?

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Originally posted by Cosmic Fur Why post the definitions if they detract from your argument, not add to it?

and how does it detract from my argument? I'm assuming you mean "a person who makes music a profession". If that is the case, a VJ on Much Music is a musician.

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced and how does it detract from my argument? I'm assuming you mean "a person who makes music a profession".

As does

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any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.

and

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One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.

and

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"one skilled in music," from music

and

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1. someone who plays a musical instrument (as a profession)

and

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2. artist who composes or conducts music as a profession

and

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a person who is skilled in music

In case you still don't get it, all of those apply to DJs.

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Originally posted by Cosmic Fur In case you still don't get it, all of those apply to DJs.

I don't get it....please explain.

a DJ is a person who plays recorded music.....he has nothing to do with the creation of the music. A DJ does not perform music....there could be an argument that a DJ conducts music but I would say that is a stretch even. The DJ does not play a musical instrument.

Music...is basically the art of arranging sounds that will flow together and are pleasing to hear. A DJ does not arrange the sounds....he may mix two sounds together but he does not create the sounds.

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced I don't get it....please explain. a DJ is a person who plays recorded music.....he has nothing to do with the creation of the music. A DJ does not perform music....there could be an argument that a DJ conducts music but I would say that is a stretch even. The DJ does not play a musical instrument.

A piano player is someone who plays recorded music. He has nothing to do with the creation of that music.

A DJ does conduct music as much as a conductor does (why not?).

Why do you not consider a mixer a musical instrument? Because it manipulates sounds digitally instead of analog?

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced Music...is basically the art of arranging sounds that will flow together and are pleasing to hear. A DJ does not arrange the sounds....he may mix two sounds together but he does not create the sounds.

Ok, first, you go from saying music is the art of arranging sounds to saying the DJ doesn't create the sounds. Maybe you thought I wouldn't notice that you suddenly started using a different verb, but I did. And a DJ does arrange the sounds. A song has a sound, and he arranges that sound in the set as he sees fit.

Yes.
The answer Marg gave 'some are, some aren't' is subjective to taste.
All dj's are musicians in their own way - no matter what their skill level.

Check 'types of musicians' - Dj is listed below 'tubist' lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musician

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Originally posted by Jeff Button http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musician

Because Wikipedia is such a definitive source... Even on WP, it says turntablist, and you know that only describes a tiny minority of the people who call themselves DJs.

A lot of people here are using an equivocation argument to try to make their points. Allow me to summarize: A DJ "plays" someone else's "music", and a concert pianist also just "plays" someone else's "music", so they're the same thing.

The problem with this argument is that the first definitions of "play" and "music" aren't the same as the second ones. The same words are being used, but they mean different things in each case. In the first fragment, "play" actually means creating the sounds on their instrument, using a score of "music" that was transcribed by somebody else. In the second fragment, "play" actually means to "replay" music that an instrumental musician or producer has already recorded and mastered. The "music" in the second case is static - it's already been made.

The pianist is playing the piano, but he is making the sound. The DJ is not playing music in the same sense; the turntables and media are actually doing that, and the DJ is just altering or combining those sounds. True turntablism is different, perhaps, because those DJs are using the decks and records as an instrument to create original sounds, rather than simply making minor alterations to prerecorded material. But I assume that's not the kind of "DJing" we're talking about here.

So, no - the vagaries of the English language in describing certain art forms are not in themselves a legitimate argument for equating DJing to musicianship.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Because Wikipedia is such a definitive source... Even on WP, it says turntablist, and you know that only describes a tiny minority of the people who call themselves DJs. A lot of people here are using an equivocation argument to try to make their points. Allow me to summarize: A DJ "plays" someone else's "music", and a concert pianist also just "plays" someone else's "music", so they're the same thing. The problem with this argument is that the first definitions of "play" and "music" aren't the same as the second ones. The same words are being used, but they mean different things in each case. In the first fragment, "play" actually means creating the sounds on their instrument, using a score of "music" that was transcribed by somebody else. In the second fragment, "play" actually means to "replay" music that an instrumental musician or producer has already recorded and mastered. The "music" in the second case is static - it's already been made. The pianist is playing the piano, but he is making the sound. The DJ is not playing music in the same sense; the turntables and media are actually doing that, and the DJ is just altering or combining those sounds. True turntablism is different, perhaps, because those DJs are using the decks and records as an instrument to create original sounds, rather than simply making minor alterations to prerecorded material. But I assume that's not the kind of "DJing" we're talking about here. So, no - the vagaries of the English language in describing certain art forms are not in themselves a legitimate argument for equating DJing to musicianship.

I disagree with you on how you say the dj is not making the sound and this is considered them not being a musician. They are not making it out right but they are still manipulating the sound no?

I think Margs and a few others hit the nail on the head. Manipulation of sound to create something new that hasn't been heard before (ie two tracks together in a consecutive string of tracks to form a set that's unique/different) constitutes being somewhat of a musician. Evil tree mentioned sound manipulation (or human organizatio of sound) as being someone who is a musician. Whether they're creating original sounds (via turntablism, scratching etc) or manipulation of the sound in a dj set (plain mixing, looping, 'regular' dj stuff) changes are happening that are being done by someone, this to me is a musician.


Man, just to make things easier...

Sound manipulation (in any way) = being musician. As to how good of a musician you are that remains to be seen. Yes Djs are musicians.

Manipulating/altering a sound is completely different from making it. I don't know how the difference can be anything other than crystal clear.

Your definition, "Sound manipulation (in any way) = being musician" is wrong. "Manipulating" a prerecorded sound is not musicianship, it's editing.

It's like saying George Lucas is a great director. No he isn't, he's a shit director, he's just a good editor. DJs are editors. Some producers are also editors. Instrumentalists and composers and conductors are not editors, they are musicians.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Manipulating/altering a sound is completely different from making it. I don't know how the difference can be anything other than crystal clear. Your definition, "Sound manipulation (in any way) = being musician" is wrong. "Manipulating" a prerecorded sound is not musicianship, it's editing. It's like saying George Lucas is a great director. No he isn't, he's a shit director, he's just a good editor. DJs are editors. Some producers are also editors. Instrumentalists and composers and conductors are not editors, they are musicians.

I see what you're saying in some sense, but the thing is they are creating a new sound, creating something different. Isn't editing changing something to make something completely new? Leaving in shitty parts of a movie completely changes the feel for the overall movie, it's the same with dj'ing. They are creating something new, by manipulation.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Don't get me wrong... I respect the talents of DJs (god knows I can't do it so I have to tip my hat) but there is a significant difference between manipulating a pre-recorded sound and actually creating that sound.

It is problematic to make this distinction though.
What about a keyboard?
It is programmed with sounds and striking a key causes that sound to be produced...
...works on exactly the same principles as a piano, except it is an electronic reproduction of a sound.

Striking a key, causing a sound to be reproduced, stringing a number of them together to form music...

...sounds like a DJ to me.

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Originally posted by shanny It is problematic to make this distinction though. What about a keyboard? It is programmed with sounds and striking a key causes that sound to be produced... ...works on exactly the same principles as a piano, except it is an electronic reproduction of a sound. Striking a key, causing a sound to be reproduced, stringing a number of them together to form music... ...sounds like a DJ to me.

Or at least what a Live PA performer does...

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Originally posted by EvilTree Or at least what a Live PA performer does...

You're right...
its more of a principle based argument, and if you're going to allow keyboarding, you're going to allow Live PA, and then I argue you would allow DJing as well.

lalalla, can't we all just agree that DJs are overpaid musical charlatans?

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Originally posted by shanny It is problematic to make this distinction though. What about a keyboard? It is programmed with sounds and striking a key causes that sound to be produced... ...works on exactly the same principles as a piano, except it is an electronic reproduction of a sound. Striking a key, causing a sound to be reproduced, stringing a number of them together to form music... ...sounds like a DJ to me.

not so much. someone playing a keyboard or any instrument for that matter has to adhere to theoretical musical structure to produce anything that may resemble a melody or a song. while a keyboard does have certain programming that does not really resemble any sort of instrument at all and is just basically a collage of sound, for the most part keyboards are programmed to mimic instruments. while playing any of these instruments theory still needs to be a adhered to. comparing this to what a dj does is sort of a pointless argument because there is nothing that the dj can do through turntables that can be explained by theoretical music structure. like, you can't hit the decks and start going through your scales....

in the technical sense of the word, i don't think you can call a dj a musician. while dj's are very much musicians in the broad sense of the word....technically speaking, it just does not work. i also think it is pointless to debate about this because you can just as easily say that dj's are artists. in terms of respect and recognition no one is more important than the other....musician or artist.

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Originally posted by Endlesswave I see what you're saying in some sense, but the thing is they are creating a new sound, creating something different. Isn't editing changing something to make something completely new? Leaving in shitty parts of a movie completely changes the feel for the overall movie, it's the same with dj'ing. They are creating something new, by manipulation.

sure, manipulation can constitute some sort of qualification to be labeled as a musician. but all the big dj's today who have big followings, earned their respect and reputation from their productions. even dj's like armin, tiestocle... had to first earn their stripes with their productions b4 they started getting gigs.

being able to 'manipulate' the flow of tracks is somewhat of a skill, but there are alot of bedroom dj's who claim to be musicians who will be forgotten in time b/c they never produced anything. whereas, now, even though pvd and tiestocle have been producing crappy 'dj' manipulated sets, they will still garner fan support b/c of their past productions, ppl still want to hear urban train and songs from OTAB.

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Originally posted by slingshot not so much. someone playing a keyboard or any instrument for that matter has to adhere to theoretical musical structure to produce anything that may resemble a melody or a song. while a keyboard does have certain programming that does not really resemble any sort of instrument at all and is just basically a collage of sound, for the most part keyboards are programmed to mimic instruments. while playing any of these instruments theory still needs to be a adhered to. comparing this to what a dj does is sort of a pointless argument because there is nothing that the dj can do through turntables that can be explained by theoretical music structure. like, you can't hit the decks and start going through your scales.... in the technical sense of the word, i don't think you can call a dj a musician. while dj's are very much musicians in the broad sense of the word....technically speaking, it just does not work. i also think it is pointless to debate about this because you can just as easily say that dj's are artists. in terms of respect and recognition no one is more important than the other....musician or artist.

So what about percussionists?

There isn't much of music theory or music structure involved when you're hitting a triangle or cymbals.

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Originally posted by Porky sure, manipulation can constitute some sort of qualification to be labeled as a musician. but all the big dj's today who have big followings, earned their respect and reputation from their productions. even dj's like armin, tiestocle... had to first earn their stripes with their productions b4 they started getting gigs. being able to 'manipulate' the flow of tracks is somewhat of a skill, but there are alot of bedroom dj's who claim to be musicians who will be forgotten in time b/c they never produced anything. whereas, now, even though pvd and tiestocle have been producing crappy 'dj' manipulated sets, they will still garner fan support b/c of their past productions, ppl still want to hear urban train and songs from OTAB.

I agree with this 100%. Tiesto didn't really need huge production cred to get gigs earlier, now it's a MUST for an up and coming newb to produce to get somehwere/famous etc. At least consistently. They're musicians just not to the same extent that say a composer or producer is one.

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