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-- the death of vinyl
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quote:

Originally posted by Skipper Your friend sounds like a bit of a wuss.... I think as a DJ who plays out it's important to be able to play both vinyl and digital. At the end of the day though, the medium is not the message - as far as DJing goes, anyways.

This isn't all directed at you skipper just the first part. FYI.

Important to who? The punters who can�t evolve? The chaps that fail to see CDJ�s as an advancement but rather a different means? The people in the crowd whom 90 percent of which have no idea what you are doing and just want to hear solid beats?

Honestly I find it rather nauseating how a lot of people refuse to see this technology as a blessing that allows us to do more with music and not just a new way to play it.

Here in Detroit I have found a lot of the people who bastardized using such technology only because they either refuse or cannot learn it. Also most of those people who still use Vinyl should be using said technology because after 10 years they still cannot beat match.

While I do believe it should almost be a prerequisite for newer DJ�s to be able to spin Vinyl I don�t feel as if they should make a point to play out with some to make �other� people feel better about there performance. I spun on Vinyl for 6 years before making the move to digital and couldn�t be happier and honestly it reflects in my performances in a very positive manner.

Everyone should do what they feel comfortable with and with what allows them to do the most with there music. While vinyl might be able to appease the first part of that statement it will never be able to fulfill the second part.

Here is little quote from Holden:

"it seems like there are two streams of post-vinyl dj-gear - the stuff that tries to emulate vinyl and saves you carrying a record box around (technics cd players, serato..) and some stuff that tries to go beyond (pioneer cd players just about, traktor..) and i just don't understand the point of the first lot. if i wanted to be limited to the mundane act of fading between two records i'd carry vinyl around.. good for the stomach muscles and luddites think you're cooler."

quote:

Originally posted by Invasionmix That's a great quote.

i think it may have been by frankie bones, i cant find the damn video ! or maybe i got it mixed up with the frankie bones interview where he said "trance is like chocolate ice cream and my style is buster custard"

quote:

Originally posted by Quadlow This isn't all directed at you skipper just the first part. FYI. Important to who? The punters who can�t evolve? The chaps that fail to see CDJ�s as an advancement but rather a different means? The people in the crowd whom 90 percent of which have no idea what you are doing and just want to hear solid beats? Honestly I find it rather nauseating how a lot of people refuse to see this technology as a blessing that allows us to do more with music and not just a new way to play it. Here in Detroit I have found a lot of the people who bastardized using such technology only because they either refuse or cannot learn it. Also most of those people who still use Vinyl should be using said technology because after 10 years they still cannot beat match. While I do believe it should almost be a prerequisite for newer DJ�s to be able to spin Vinyl I don�t feel as if they should make a point to play out with some to make �other� people feel better about there performance. I spun on Vinyl for 6 years before making the move to digital and couldn�t be happier and honestly it reflects in my performances in a very positive manner. Everyone should do what they feel comfortable with and with what allows them to do the most with there music. While vinyl might be able to appease the first part of that statement it will never be able to fulfill the second part. Here is little quote from Holden: "it seems like there are two streams of post-vinyl dj-gear - the stuff that tries to emulate vinyl and saves you carrying a record box around (technics cd players, serato..) and some stuff that tries to go beyond (pioneer cd players just about, traktor..) and i just don't understand the point of the first lot. if i wanted to be limited to the mundane act of fading between two records i'd carry vinyl around.. good for the stomach muscles and luddites think you're cooler."

i think you're entirely misinterpreting what she's saying.
she's saying the medium doesn't matter, and you're belabouring the point that it in a very marginal way, it does... in the sense that some people choose to play certain mediums for reasons that have nothing to do with the music itself, but rather the medium.

your comment about the 90 percent of the crowd not caring is - i think - exactly what she's saying actually; most don't give a shit what the music is imprinted on.

that said, there are still tunes and releases out there that are only issued on vinyl. for that reason alone, its good to keep up with both. even top djs who spin only cds are playing vinyl rips as it is, so take that for whatever its worth.

regarding holden's comment... wow, if all he can think to do with records is fade 2 of them in and out in the first place, then yeah, i can see how he'd think that some of the digital alternatives he's mentioning would be leaps and bounds better. i've never heard him live before, but i think i'd be bored to tears, from a technical standpoint, if all he did in the vinyl only days was really just fade 2 records as he's describing.

quote:

Originally posted by -g- i think you're entirely misinterpreting what she's saying.

Indeed.
I think a good DJ should learn as many means of DJing as they can just because a wide skill set is better than a narrow one. Take promos for example - some artists still distribute promos on vinyl and only vinyl. It would suck to get such a promo and not be able to play it because you decided turntables were going out of style and never bothered to learn how to play on them.

quote:

Originally posted by -g- i think you're entirely misinterpreting what she's saying. she's saying the medium doesn't matter, and you're belabouring the point that it in a very marginal way, it does... in the sense that some people choose to play certain mediums for reasons that have nothing to do with the music itself, but rather the medium. your comment about the 90 percent of the crowd not caring is - i think - exactly what she's saying actually; most don't give a shit what the music is imprinted on.

No you�re misinterpreting what I said. Distinctively in my post I said the first part which would be the first paragraph of my post was directed at her. I wasn�t trying to belabor anyone at all. I just wanted to know what benefits she saw coming from another DJ that spins out regularly, what in today�s day is there a need for spinning both.

I understand that the medium is not the message and never questioned that at all. If the reasons have nothing to do with the music itself then what or reasons were there? She answered my question which is fine I just curious.

quote:

Originally posted by -g- even top djs who spin only cds are playing vinyl rips as it is, so take that for whatever its worth.

Actually that is completely wrong. Most top DJ�s that are playing CDs are playing digital versions that were provided to them by either the artist or the label.

I have also never heard of a DJ that honestly buys vinyl and rips them to MP3 or wave when the release is available as a master digital copy for distribution. That would be the most redundant thing ever. Unless they are still getting vinyl for the keepsake part of it but I would be very interested in seeing one that would still rip the vinyl instead of just getting a digital copy to play.

quote:

Originally posted by -g- regarding holden's comment... wow, if all he can think to do with records is fade 2 of them in and out in the first place, then yeah, i can see how he'd think that some of the digital alternatives he's mentioning would be leaps and bounds better. i've never heard him live before, but i think i'd be bored to tears, from a technical standpoint, if all he did in the vinyl only days was really just fade 2 records as he's describing.

It�s funny that you say that because Holden is probably one of the most technical and musically sound big DJ�s playing right now. The first time I saw him spin in 2003 he was spinning on CD�s so I cannot speak for which means he used before that.

He is one of the young guns so that technology was available to him right around when he first started spinning. When he says fading in and out he doesn�t mean just fading in and out of breakdowns it just means mixing records back and forth. There is no looping; you cannot set up cue points, no option for digital manipulation and such to make mixes and performances more interesting.

Anyways thats for the converstation, like I said I'm wasn't trying to +1 anybody or anything just looking to add my opinion and ask a question. Also your website isn't loading correctly either, didn't know if you knew that.

quote:

Originally posted by Skipper Indeed. I think a good DJ should learn as many means of DJing as they can just because a wide skill set is better than a narrow one. Take promos for example - some artists still distribute promos on vinyl and only vinyl. It would suck to get such a promo and not be able to play it because you decided turntables were going out of style and never bothered to learn how to play on them.

There we go that is all I wanted to know. I have ran into that problem on only a few occasions and most can be solved by contacting the artist for the MP3 if it is not available for download. I just can�t bring myself lately to make the purchase of vinyl for just a few records. It sucks not being able to play though but usually after a bit of time they are available for download some were.

quote:

Originally posted by Quadlow Actually that is completely wrong. Most top DJ�s that are playing CDs are playing digital versions that were provided to them by either the artist or the label. I have also never heard of a DJ that honestly buys vinyl and rips them to MP3 or wave when the release is available as a master digital copy for distribution. That would be the most redundant thing ever. Unless they are still getting vinyl for the keepsake part of it but I would be very interested in seeing one that would still rip the vinyl instead of just getting a digital copy to play.

let me provide a partial list for you:

Derrick Carter
Little Louie Vega
Jazzy Jeff
Justin Long
Mark Farina
Jesse Rose
Jacob London
Iz & Diz
Claude Von Stroke
Mastiksoul
Switch
Fred Everything

and those are just off the top of my head.
i know they do this because i either know those guys and/or others who know them, and in the case of louie and jazzy jeff they've actually explicitly mentioned it in interviews.

for that matter, you can add me to that list too, and i;m not bragging or whatever, but i do get a ton of shit sent to me from producers and djs as it is. i still feel the need, and am rewarded consistently, for checking the releases every week.

at the end of the day, there's still shit that gets put out on wax that just doesn't come out digitally. and as small as the electonic music world is, not everyone knows everyone to the extent that there's this mass database of music we all just download from.
by and large these digital files get shared through personal file transfers between djs, producers, and labels. if you wanna be lazy and just let the music come to you, its easy to do that too, but djs who rely entirely on that end up not sounding too original. the real djs dig around to find the more osbscure stuff, be that in some weird internet shop nobody knows about, or some odd vinyl shop, the point is the same. that goes for any genre.

quote:

Originally posted by Quadlow It�s funny that you say that because Holden is probably one of the most technical and musically sound big DJ�s playing right now. The first time I saw him spin in 2003 he was spinning on CD�s so I cannot speak for which means he used before that. He is one of the young guns so that technology was available to him right around when he first started spinning. When he says fading in and out he doesn�t mean just fading in and out of breakdowns it just means mixing records back and forth. There is no looping; you cannot set up cue points, no option for digital manipulation and such to make mixes and performances more interesting.

maybe he really is very good technically; i've never heard him so i don't know. but i'll say if he is, then he is entirely misrepresenting himself in that quote.
setting up cue points for loops, etc. is great and all, but ultimately just makes things a lil easier. u can do exactly the same thing manually, and i'd certainly hope he's using more than 2 decks anyway.

you might be able to tell from the djs i listed above, and the fact i've never heard holden, that my musical preferences are not with the prog/trance thing... i find the djs i've heard in those genres almost uniformly boring, from a technical standpoint. i like very aggressive mixing, beat juggling, 3 deck stuff with acapellas thrown in and weird, non electronic stuff playing over top, and done so fast, on the fly, worrying about the correct speed as you go rather than taking time to work it out in the cue. i also come from a hip hop background, so you might see where i'm coming from with regards to technique there.

anyway to say that its all digital these days... well its becoming more and more true, but its simply not the case today. even what we see as digital(cds) may not have originated that way when taken from the source release.

quote:

Originally posted by Quadlow Anyways thats for the converstation, like I said I'm wasn't trying to +1 anybody or anything just looking to add my opinion and ask a question. Also your website isn't loading correctly either, didn't know if you knew that.

yeah i know(the +1 thing). i think tho that there's this all pervasive idea that vinyl is not relevant today, and i think its just selling things a little bit shorter than is the case, and that some may not realize the extent to which vinyl is still used today, even in a sort of roundabout way. it won't be long before it really is kinda of not relevant, but not yet!

hmmmmm - my website seems to be working ok for me here.
you mean this one? -- > www.djmikegleeson.com

i guess i should also add - by and large most of the tunes will def. be digital in nature. but its just those few new, obscure tracks for which the vinyl rip thing applies.

also, and i guess this goes without saying, all the old stuff that was released before digital and isn't available digitally anyway, that gets ripped too.

quote:

Originally posted by -g- i guess i should also add - by and large most of the tunes will def. be digital in nature. but its just those few new, obscure tracks for which the vinyl rip thing applies. also, and i guess this goes without saying, all the old stuff that was released before digital and isn't available digitally anyway, that gets ripped too.

regardless what format ppl play, be aware of all the pros and cons in quality delivery. In digital format, you can control data rates and streaming levels, all which can affect the sound quality. I have played with sound for a long long time, and a good tech can tweak audio to sound good or bad, no matter the system it's played on, or the quality of the source or copied file.

playing records or digital files via mp3's does not make the dj or artist, it's what you can do with the equipment on hand and what's in your box!!

Re: the death of vinyl

quote:

Originally posted by yellow1 what to do with my thousands of records?

keep them...soon they'll be collectibles.

quote:

Originally posted by yellow1 regardless what format ppl play, be aware of all the pros and cons in quality delivery. In digital format, you can control data rates and streaming levels, all which can affect the sound quality. I have played with sound for a long long time, and a good tech can tweak audio to sound good or bad, no matter the system it's played on, or the quality of the source or copied file. playing records or digital files via mp3's does not make the dj or artist, it's what you can do with the equipment on hand and what's in your box!!

quote:

Originally posted by -g- let me provide a partial list for you: Derrick Carter Little Louie Vega Jazzy Jeff Justin Long Mark Farina Jesse Rose Jacob London Iz & Diz Claude Von Stroke Mastiksoul Switch Fred Everything and those are just off the top of my head. i know they do this because i either know those guys and/or others who know them, and in the case of louie and jazzy jeff they've actually explicitly mentioned it in interviews. for that matter, you can add me to that list too, and i;m not bragging or whatever, but i do get a ton of shit sent to me from producers and djs as it is. i still feel the need, and am rewarded consistently, for checking the releases every week.

Understandable but I could provide a laundry list of DJ�s that go in the opposite direction as well. What it boils down to though is that it still is around and relevant and that was never neither of our points I believe. People will have there preferences but what I cannot stand is the vinyl pushers who feel as if a certain amount of respect is not due unless your providing the music on there terms. This can get extremely annoying and is rather distracting. It has been said numerous times in the thread that it�s not the means it�s the music and that is true, however with some artist that is not the case. I think we have both shared our opinions on both sides of the conversation well and while we may have experience and preferences that may differ we still understand one another.

quote:

Originally posted by -g- at the end of the day, there's still shit that gets put out on wax that just doesn't come out digitally. and as small as the electonic music world is, not everyone knows everyone to the extent that there's this mass database of music we all just download from. by and large these digital files get shared through personal file transfers between djs, producers, and labels. if you wanna be lazy and just let the music come to you, its easy to do that too, but djs who rely entirely on that end up not sounding too original. the real djs dig around to find the more osbscure stuff, be that in some weird internet shop nobody knows about, or some odd vinyl shop, the point is the same. that goes for any genre.

That is always going to be the case but I think that is more relevant in your field of music. For me the majority of the stuff I spin didn�t exist a few years ago so searching around in crates isn�t going to do anything for me. I thing that is a very valid point of the conversation is that in some realms of EDM there is more of a need of that then others. Take your run of the mill Chicago House, West Coast House or even Detroit techno for that matter and over the years it really hasn�t changed much. You can dig up a cut from 8 years ago and probably wouldn�t have a problem finding a spot for it with some of the more recent tracks. So Vinyl is still a very important part in that there are still gems our there waiting to be found and have not and will not even be released on vinyl. In my spectrum that isn�t the case, there might a few here and there but its all about either unreleased stuff and edits or productions created by yourself which is what I do.

quote:

Originally posted by -g- maybe he really is very good technically; i've never heard him so i don't know. but i'll say if he is, then he is entirely misrepresenting himself in that quote. setting up cue points for loops, etc. is great and all, but ultimately just makes things a lil easier. u can do exactly the same thing manually, and i'd certainly hope he's using more than 2 decks anyway. you might be able to tell from the djs i listed above, and the fact i've never heard holden, that my musical preferences are not with the prog/trance thing... i find the djs i've heard in those genres almost uniformly boring, from a technical standpoint. i like very aggressive mixing, beat juggling, 3 deck stuff with acapellas thrown in and weird, non electronic stuff playing over top, and done so fast, on the fly, worrying about the correct speed as you go rather than taking time to work it out in the cue. i also come from a hip hop background, so you might see where i'm coming from with regards to technique there.

I understand what you�re saying to a certain degree but I feel as if your still misunderstanding what he said a little wrong. I think that might have a little to do with the genre of music that you specialize.

I wouldn�t expect to here Carter running ableton remixing on the fly, looping and throwing down effects and extra snythns on top of things. It just wouldn�t work but our realm of music (techno, minimal, tech-house, neu-prog) those are things that are necessary primary due to the loop based production methods.

Techno and the latter can be rather repetitive and such and those technologies allow us to make it more interesting and diverse. Using just turntables two mix records back and forth doesn�t hold any water to using two CDJ�s and tracktor or ableton over it. I am sure he respects vinyl just like I do however for us its doesn�t give enough options. Yes you maybe be able to juggle, throw down accapelas and such but honestly I have been there done that and find it to be rather boring now and I feel a lot of limitations in that system of presenting music. But like we have said before what works for some doesn�t for others.

Holden also doesn�t play prog/trance and hasn�t for years now but I know you said your not familiar with him. I can�t stand that stuff either and its not what I play or personally respect. He spins shit that is completely impossible to put into a genre which is sort of the way I am spin which is why I respect him so much. Anyways though .. lol

quote:

Originally posted by -g- yeah i know(the +1 thing). i think tho that there's this all pervasive idea that vinyl is not relevant today, and i think its just selling things a little bit shorter than is the case, and that some may not realize the extent to which vinyl is still used today, even in a sort of roundabout way. it won't be long before it really is kinda of not relevant, but not yet!

I am completely agree and have not agreed with people saying that in the thread either. A lot of the people on this board though are fans of the more �progressive� styles of music in which the majority of the artist they listen to haven�t touched a vinyl in 5 years. Its around and will continue to be, I just hate people using it as a way to not give people proper respect that is all. Making people believe that if they don�t spin it that they are not a real DJ and shit just drives me crazy.

quote:

Originally posted by -g- hmmmmm - my website seems to be working ok for me here. you mean this one? -- > www.djmikegleeson.com

its working now and shit

Nothing will ever beat the tangible grip of a vinyl on Technics 1200 turntables. Nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by dan_essential Nothing will ever beat the tangible grip of a vinyl on Technics 1200 turntables. Nothing.

nothing beats the grip of jessica albas ass in the palm of your hand ... nothing

I did an interview with mark knight about 2 weeks ago (its on my site. www.amplfiedradio.com under downloads) and I asked him about if you were starting a label or djing would you stay away from vinyl and his answer was (in short) yes because what other industry uses technology from the 1950's that has been updated?

Ampz

quote:

Originally posted by DJ_Ampz I did an interview with mark knight about 2 weeks ago (its on my site. www.amplfiedradio.com under downloads) and I asked him about if you were starting a label or djing would you stay away from vinyl and his answer was (in short) yes because what other industry uses technology from the 1950's that has been updated? Ampz

So I guess the answer would be "yes" Mark Knight would rather touch Jessica Alba�s ass then spin Vinyl. Its settled then .. lol

quote:

Originally posted by Quadlow nothing beats the grip of jessica albas ass in the palm of your hand ... nothing

Let me re-phrase that. No CDJ or CD player made for djing, will beat the grip and feeling of spinning a vinyl on a Technics 1200.

quote:

Originally posted by dan_essential Let me re-phrase that. No CDJ or CD player made for djing, will beat the grip and feeling of spinning a vinyl on a Technics 1200.

Here in Australia (Victoria), we have a few record stores (www.vinylwarning.com.au) as an example, and it is doing better than ever. Look on the top of that page, "Real Dj's play vinyl", i think it speaks for itself. But yeh, everyone has their own preference.

Sorry about the double post, it won't let me delete it.

quote:

Originally posted by Quadlow Understandable but I could provide a laundry list of DJ�s that go in the opposite direction as well. What it boils down to though is that it still is around and relevant and that was never neither of our points I believe. People will have there preferences but what I cannot stand is the vinyl pushers who feel as if a certain amount of respect is not due unless your providing the music on there terms.

for sure, but you did ask what top djs do that vinyl rip bizz.
but of course even those guys play pure digital by a large margin, i was just sayin, it happens and it happens a lot more than people realize i think.

i do find it rather bizarre tho this whole "vinyl is better" attitude that pervades with so many people, seemingly in the name of tradition or something. i mean... the originators, they sure as hell would have been the first to dump vinyl had something better come along.
so if its some hommage to the past or something, the truly traditional response would be to embrace as much new technology as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by Quadlow I wouldn�t expect to here Carter running ableton remixing on the fly, looping and throwing down effects and extra snythns on top of things. It just wouldn�t work but our realm of music (techno, minimal, tech-house, neu-prog) those are things that are necessary primary due to the loop based production methods. Techno and the latter can be rather repetitive and such and those technologies allow us to make it more interesting and diverse. Using just turntables two mix records back and forth doesn�t hold any water to using two CDJ�s and tracktor or ableton over it. I am sure he respects vinyl just like I do however for us its doesn�t give enough options. Yes you maybe be able to juggle, throw down accapelas and such but honestly I have been there done that and find it to be rather boring now and I feel a lot of limitations in that system of presenting music. But like we have said before what works for some doesn�t for others. Holden also doesn�t play prog/trance and hasn�t for years now but I know you said your not familiar with him. I can�t stand that stuff either and its not what I play or personally respect. He spins shit that is completely impossible to put into a genre which is sort of the way I am spin which is why I respect him so much. Anyways though .. lol

yeah i just went by whatever discogs said regarding holden's style.. prog/trance whatever it was.

i can totally get into someone using something like ableton really effectively, but u know those comments he made.... they weren't directed towards that stuff. he wasn't really talking about anything truly different or even more creative than playing tunes as per, but just with cds rather than records. now had he made the argument that being able to trigger entirely new shit, playing riffs over top, etc. and really doing something creative on the fly with this technology... that's a whole other thing.

speaking to that... i think there's a real learning curve with that stuff... the ableton stuff. some people make it interesting and others, its just like watching paint dry. i find it interesting that more and more, this is totally going back to what is essentially a band up there on stage. play some new parts, add a melody, drum kit a breakdown, sing a bit.... interesting times ahead.

quote:

Originally posted by dan_essential Let me re-phrase that. No CDJ or CD player made for djing, will beat the grip and feeling of spinning a vinyl on a Technics 1200.

and no one gives a shit. the advantages of cd's far out weight the touch of vinyl.

its been long on its way out in the edm scene. it wont full die imo but its definately less and less popular everyday.

quote:

Originally posted by Euphorica and no one gives a shit. the advantages of cd's far out weight the touch of vinyl. its been long on its way out in the edm scene. it wont full die imo but its definately less and less popular everyday.

good way of putting it, but then people would argue laptops have way more advantages than CDs.

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