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-- Fierce Gaza fighting sparks fears of civil war
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yes, i too am wondering how the anti-israel TA lobby group are assessing this latest outbreak of violence. to me it illustrates the complete lack of ability of palestinian leading parties to negotiate anything without the power of the gun behind them. you disagree with someone? well, you just kill them. whilst israel has committed its own acts of barbarism no doubt, they at least have a central (accountable) core that has the power to negotiate.

in my opinion the current state of palestinian politics illustrates perfectly that the problems in the middle east are far from being the sole fault of israel. until the palestinians with power accept that violence is counter productive, we'll still be arguing about this in 20 years time.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN yes, i too am wondering how the anti-israel TA lobby group are assessing this latest outbreak of violence.

They obviously have nothing to say because, well, they would have to admit this has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with proxies and internal power struggles amongst themselves.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r They obviously have nothing to say because, well, they would have to admit this has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with proxies and internal power struggles amongst themselves.

+1

and Purple is the only one that has the gonads to state what he thinks, even though its a 1 can short of 6-pack

A question to those who are laughing and celebrating over this news and pointing out what animals every single Palestinian must be...

What is the solution? Are you here to gloat or do you have a solution for this crises? What would your preferable outcome for this to be? And how do we get there?

Oh and another question - why do you support Fatah over Hamas?

Israel encouraged the creation of Hamas to counter Fatah/PLO so they would fight each other (socialists vs Islamists). And since their creation they have fought with each other. They hate each other as much as they hate Israel.

But Fatah were always the Palestinians favourites until recently when they became corrupt and failed to provide the services the Palestinians wanted, whereas Hamas provided healthcare and education (well, their brand of education but education none the less). [Muslim] Arabs turn to Islam when society begins to fall apart around them and thats what they did when they voted Hamas. They weren't Islamic extremeists before and they are not now, they just got pissed off with Fatah.

Why are Hamas the bad guys and Fatah the good guys?? (Not that I think Hamas are neccessarily good, just interested to know everyone elses reasoning)

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Originally posted by George Smiley A question to those who are laughing and celebrating over this news and pointing out what animals every single Palestinian must be... What is the solution? Are you here to gloat or do you have a solution for this crises? What would your preferable outcome for this to be? And how do we get there?

i don't think anyone here is gloating or is celebratory in any way. a statement like that does give insight into what may be a certain filter that you see through...but who cares?

i said it before in this thread, only the Palestinians can ultimately be responsible in the long term. that said, in the short term, barring any more escalation against Israel or themselves (Fatah, PNA, innocent bystanders, ect.) i believe it is in the interest of all Arabs to help absorb Gaza, temporarily, through Egypt.

given Abbas' statement of emergency no one is more qualified or will be more accepted (although that can be debated on the margins) than Egypt. mainly because of the shared border but it certainly CAN'T be Israel, or the UN or even a combination of.

can Egypt do that? of course.
will Egypt do that? doubt it.

EDIT> and i do believe George that Hamas was voted for overwhelmingly by Palestinians in recent elections

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Originally posted by Q5echo EDIT> and i do believe George that Hamas was voted for overwhelmingly by Palestinians in recent elections

Eh?

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Originally posted by George Smiley [Muslim] Arabs turn to Islam when society begins to fall apart around them and thats what they did when they voted Hamas. They weren't Islamic extremeists before and they are not now, they just got pissed off with Fatah.

and now, look what turning to blind faith in a myth has given the inocent palastinians....... instead of taking up the call for reform, they resorted to giving these radical "death to all but us" thugs a foot hold that any chance for peace, is now thrown out the window like many of the fatah party members were this past week.

and you are right, the day to day Palastinian is not a terrorist.

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Originally posted by Q5echo Israel will attack Hamas when they become attacked...and they will, but not before. of course you already know and have witnessed this and will probably witness it again several times within your lifetime. but you won't admit it ever. Arabs and other Palestinian proxy armies hold Palestinians hostage. again you refuse to see this as you have been trained like a dog to hate Israel first before accepting any and all logic. you, Shaolin, Purple and all of the other terror apologists here everywhere are enablers of everything that gives innocent Palestinians a bad name. you've doomed them to suffer through your acceptance of the death cult.

I make more sense than you do for several reasons. One of them is that you have no idea and cant read at all what I post, absolutely. For one hundred millionth time I would like to state that I DO NOT support nor like Hamas, and consider them a threat to the future and stability in the region. Arabs do not hold Palestinians hostage because its Israel thats holding their lands, holding them in captivity under the great nation of Israel when it actually gives little if anything to Palestinian people. You refuse to acknowledge the mere existence of Palestinian people by denying them the right to their lands they lived on long before the immigrant Jews came in and forced out the people. And much more. And Palestinian people will never never accept this humiliation, this occupation, this unlawful abuse of human rights and return to homeland, etc. etc. etc. And unfortunately, some radical groups like Hamas that tend to serve someone else than Palestinian people are taking advantage of the situation. Palestinian people are pissed off and have chosen the wrong party to follow. And attacks on Israel will continue until the day Israel gives Palestinians their dignity, independence, rights, land back. THEN ARAB STATES WILL COME AND WILL HELP AND WILL DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO STOP THE RADICALS. Some states like Saudi Arabia and Jordan are already co-operating with Israel. But in order for everyone to co-operate, Israel needs to give some concessions.

I dont support terrorists. I dont quite consider Hamas to be an independence movement after watching how they brainwash children and such. I support Palestinian people though because they have suffered so long and so hard first and for long time under direct Israeli oppression, and over time under the radical movement that feeds off every Palestinian child that it sacrifices for its goals that are unlikely to succeed.

So you and your butthead neo-cons should get your head checked, carefully re-read my post and get the idea that me and I am pretty sure others on here are not supporting the terrorists. You just dont have a good idea or understanding who the terrorists are. Under your description the American revolutionaries fighting for independence from British Empire are terrorists, too.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Arabs do not hold Palestinians hostage because its Israel thats holding their lands

in Gaza?

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Originally posted by EvilTree What do you propose Israel should do now then?

Grant Palestinian people their independence. Return to 1948 borders. These are main two that are not hard to give. On secondary note, on an unrealistical approach in addition to the previous two I stated - Israel should pay reparations for the lands seized and property/goods taken when Palestinian people were forcefully removed, and apologize for the removal of the Palestinians from their lands / other evil things its done between 1947-1967.

And then Israel should not give in to the radicals. So what that sometimes Hamas attacks - sadly, it should turn the other cheek and not retaliate. Jews are very smart, they should have figured it out by now that retaliating only helps the radicals and achieves little if anything for Israel. Plus it doesnt make Israel look better because it merely evens the score - actually, worse - it sometimes annihilates Palestinians making their actions look so like the Gestapo tactics. Instead Israel should use its "connections" all over the world media and show how Hamas and other violate their end of the bargain and embarass the Arab world if that was the case. I would totally jump on Israel's side, and so will the rest of the world. The hatred of Jews, mainly for Israel, will fall off because people will see the good side of Israel, and anti-semitism will decline. Retaliation only brings more hatred, remember.

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Originally posted by Q5echo in Gaza?

Sigh ... Israel has held Palestinians hostage and under its arse for so long, that Palestinian government became so weak and dependent on Israeli funds and army to survive that once the Israelis pulled out, the radicals that brewed all the time from Israeli occupation decided to take control and the puppet weak regime was not going to hold it. Same in Iraq, it seems, same scenario. Can't you see that? Puppet regimes are weak, and opposition grows stronger the longer and more brutal the occupation is.

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Originally posted by LazFX and now, look what turning to blind faith in a myth has given the inocent palastinians....... instead of taking up the call for reform, they resorted to giving these radical "death to all but us" thugs a foot hold that any chance for peace, is now thrown out the window like many of the fatah party members were this past week. and you are right, the day to day Palastinian is not a terrorist.

Blind faith in a myth? Is that what you think they were voting for?

What is it with people on this forum and their blind, prejudiced and lazy assumptions everytime about cultures they simply do not understand? It's like talking to children!

They voted for Hamas not because they thought God would save them or God would build them a hospital. That is not what Political Islam is about. It is about the reforms you mentioned and policies for the social good. It would be useful for you to think about Political Islam in the same way you think about the American regime. They are deeply religious and base a hell of a lot of policy decisions on Christianity. Political Islam is the same - that applying the laws of Islam will help society better itself. It doesn't have to be as extreme as what the Taliban or al-Qaida want, and Hamas in no way shape or form is as extreme as those two (neither are the Islamists in Iraq apart from the al-Qaida one). Nobody would say George Bush is an extremist and follows the Christian version of al-Qaida's ideology (ok, so they would, but you know what I mean!) but it is religious none the less and he likes his wars as much as the next "extremist".

Don't fall into the trap that just because somebody is fighting a war and uses religion as a rallying cry or justification, that they all fall into the same category as al-Qaida. And certainly don't fall into the trap that everyone that lives in that region is an al-Qaida in waiting.

FYI, it is extremely well known that the Palestinians voted for Hamas because they were fed up with the corruption of Fatah. Not becuase they wanted to implement Sharia Law (which imo very very few of them would want)

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Originally posted by George Smiley Blind faith in a myth? Is that what you think they were voting for? What is it with people on this forum and their blind, prejudiced and lazy assumptions everytime about cultures they simply do not understand? It's like talking to children! They voted for Hamas not because they thought God would save them or God would build them a hospital. That is not what Political Islam is about. It is about the reforms you mentioned and policies for the social good. It would be useful for you to think about Political Islam in the same way you think about the American regime. They are deeply religious and base a hell of a lot of policy decisions on Christianity. Political Islam is the same - that applying the laws of Islam will help society better itself. It doesn't have to be as extreme as what the Taliban or al-Qaida want, and Hamas in no way shape or form is as extreme as those two (neither are the Islamists in Iraq apart from the al-Qaida one). Nobody would say George Bush is an extremist and follows the Christian version of al-Qaida's ideology (ok, so they would, but you know what I mean!) but it is religious none the less and he likes his wars as much as the next "extremist". Don't fall into the trap that just because somebody is fighting a war and uses religion as a rallying cry or justification, that they all fall into the same category as al-Qaida. And certainly don't fall into the trap that everyone that lives in that region is an al-Qaida in waiting. FYI, it is extremely well known that the Palestinians voted for Hamas because they were fed up with the corruption of Fatah. Not becuase they wanted to implement Sharia Law (which imo very very few of them would want)

Sorry, to sum up:

You cannot look at a group, see that they are militant Muslims and automatically put them in the same category as al-Qaida. it simply does not work like that and it is a very dangerous habit to have if you are involved in policy (which is pretty much the main problem we had in Iraq and why we are in a mess now)

You have to see each group seperately and deal with them uniquely...

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Sigh ... Israel has held Palestinians hostage and under its arse for so long, that Palestinian government became so weak and dependent on Israeli funds and army to survive that once the Israelis pulled out, the radicals that brewed all the time from Israeli occupation decided to take control and the puppet weak regime was not going to hold it.

so who's holding Palistinians in Gaza hostage now? when Israel cuts the water and the electricity and money to Gaza and all of it's ancilliary support, will you blame Hamas for everything they can't provide? you won't. you won't even blame Abbas, you'll blame Israel.

you don't have any answers...you hate Israel for essentially existing among those that have tried to destroy them...you say you don't like Hamas, but like all of the terrorist orginazations that have come before it that Israel has had to deal with in one way or another...to rational people, your indifference towards them is an endorsement of them.

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Same in Iraq, it seems, same scenario. Can't you see that? Puppet regimes are weak, and opposition grows stronger the longer and more brutal the occupation is.

shut up with Iraq dude.

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Originally posted by George Smiley FYI, it is extremely well known that the Palestinians voted for Hamas because they were fed up with the corruption of Fatah. Not becuase they wanted to implement Sharia Law (which imo very very few of them would want)

agree, but it was known how blood thirsty Hamas was.

then again, i don't think anyone believed that Palestinians could have possibly appreciated that in a way that would have prevented them from voting for them in such an overwhelming fashion.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Sorry, to sum up: You cannot look at a group, see that they are militant Muslims and automatically put them in the same category as al-Qaida. it simply does not work like that and it is a very dangerous habit to have if you are involved in policy (which is pretty much the main problem we had in Iraq and why we are in a mess now) You have to see each group seperately and deal with them uniquely...

you are right and after talking to my palestinian co worker, who fled the area due to her revoking islam, she told me the same..... I stand corrected... you cannot compare the two.. there is a big diff between a militant muslim (fatah/hamas) and a radical islamic (al queefa/taliban/iran's current admin)

I owe you a coke jorge

Palestinians support Hamas. Hamas won a democratic poll held under watchful eyes of UN and whole world. After its victory the corrupted opposition party refused to surrender power and admit its defeat. In any other county's case this would have been seen as a 'coup' by Fatah. Since Hamas won the elections it has full authority to force its authority. UN should have intervened and thwarted Fatah rebels out of govt buildings and restore power to democratically elected Hamas who Palestinians chose as their leaders and think can do something and bring change for Palestinians.

Israel has done a lot by not doing anything and by not letting anyone other do anything. Israel has done a lot by building the WALL all around and severely limiting mobility of UN peace keep tanks or troops which could have been stationed otherwise. Israel has made Palestine a living zoo for people from outside, who watch caged people fighting with each other and killing. And Israel watches them doing it Gladiator movie style. First build the wall, let them fight and we will sit on king's throne and watch the drama. And if anyone from outside tries to intervene we have 'THE WALL' or 'the arena' and the power bestowed upon us by USA to take care of it.

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Originally posted by LazFX you are right and after talking to my palestinian co worker, who fled the area due to her revoking islam, she told me the same..... I stand corrected... you cannot compare the two.. there is a big diff between a militant muslim (fatah/hamas) and a radical islamic (al queefa/taliban/iran's current admin) I owe you a coke jorge

But you define Fatah as a "militant muslim" group along with Hamas...which suggests an extreme lack of knowledge about militant groups in Palestine, perhaps you should sit down a little bit longer with your Palestinian friend!

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Originally posted by LazFX you are right and after talking to my palestinian co worker, who fled the area due to her revoking islam, she told me the same..... I stand corrected... you cannot compare the two.. there is a big diff between a militant muslim (fatah/hamas) and a radical islamic (al queefa/taliban/iran's current admin) I owe you a coke jorge

Actually I'd be quite interested to know more about your co-worker's background and views on the current situation etc if you'd like to PM me?

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Originally posted by George Smiley But you define Fatah as a "militant muslim" group along with Hamas...which suggests an extreme lack of knowledge about militant groups in Palestine, perhaps you should sit down a little bit longer with your Palestinian friend!

she pointed me to http://www.faithfreedom.org it is ran by ex Muslims and contains many articles on the growing movement of apostates that have left slam due to the radical teachings....
very interesting web site to say the least... but it is blocked by many countries, especially Islamic Ran countries. I will not give her name or any more details out of respect for her since many in her family hate her with such a passion that even her own brother tried to kill her when they learned of her leaving the faith.
that web site is pretty scary....in that it offers a POV of Islam from former Muslims and they seem to know their stuff. The guy even has debates against active Mullahs and even has a reward for any Muslim that can prove that what they state on the site about Mohamed and his teachings are wrong.

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Originally posted by George Smiley A question to those who are laughing and celebrating over this news and pointing out what animals every single Palestinian must be... What is the solution? Are you here to gloat or do you have a solution for this crises? What would your preferable outcome for this to be? And how do we get there?

Gloating?
Are you insane?

Questions to the people that normally defend the Palestinians were asked because, for whatever reason, they seem to have more 'insight'.
Why wouldn't we want their input?
Are those questions a little too hard for them or we finding out that they've been blowing smoke up our ass all this time? (Which is what we're begining to suspect due to their recent lack of input on the subject).

If I'm wrong (and I hope I am) then lets here from them...you know who you are...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Gloating? Are you insane? Questions to the people that normally defend the Palestinians were asked because, for whatever reason, they seem to have more 'insight'. Why wouldn't we want their input? Are those questions a little too hard for them or we finding out that they've been blowing smoke up our ass all this time? (Which is what we're begining to suspect due to their recent lack of input on the subject). If I'm wrong (and I hope I am) then lets here from them...you know who you are...

Not sure what you are getting at here?

And you need to be extremely careful when you brand about phrases like "people that normally defend the Palestinians" because I get the impression you are trying to portray certain people on this forum as supporting terrorism against Israel and I am not aware of anyone on here that does...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Not sure what you are getting at here? And you need to be extremely careful when you brand about phrases like "people that normally defend the Palestinians" because I get the impression you are trying to portray certain people on this forum as supporting terrorism against Israel and I am not aware of anyone on here that does...

uh Purple does

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Originally posted by LazFX uh Purple does

Purple doesn't count

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