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-- Cuts, fare hikes menace TTC Miller = Retard
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Originally posted by Cro_Addict i thought i read that TTC uses 15%

i just checked and you're correct. it was 15% in the 2006 budget. i was quoting diginut from a previous post. should prolly have verified first.

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Originally posted by zokissima +1 As large of a budget-sucker as the TTC is, it is a critical piece of the city infrastructure. Making cutbacks can't be a good thing. How about a freeze on the sallaries of TTC workers for a couple of years...

how much do u think the ttc operators make a year?

how about they take some pay cuts those union ****s

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Originally posted by Tb. how about they take some pay cuts those union ****s

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Originally posted by smuncky how much do u think the ttc operators make a year?

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Originally posted by smuncky how much do u think the ttc operators make a year?

Average about $25 an hour, I think.

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Originally posted by Cosmic Fur Just out of curiosity, what newspaper do you read?

Globe is okay (a bit on the Liberal side). Post is okay (more than a bit on the Conservative side). Mostly I read a lot of blogs - and yes, that includes the liberal ones, even though they're mostly full of shit too.

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Originally posted by geroin can someone tell me what the fuck are we doing in Afghanistan spending millions of dollars...

Military force is the natural responsibility of government. Transportation is not. Transportation can be handled very well by the private sector, but for reasons which I think should be obvious to everyone, we don't want to be contracting out our military to the lowest bidder.

Also see EvilTree's post re: delegation of responsibilities. It's hard to believe that any Canadian doesn't understand this - I learned it in elementary school.

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Originally posted by zokissima How about a freeze on the sallaries of TTC workers for a couple of years...

TTC workers are unionized. Good luck with that. Anyway, I don't think TTC workers get paid ridiculously above market; it's the bureaucracy and corruption that eats up all the money. I sympathize with the grunts at the TTC, most of them are probably shitting their pants right now. Hopefully not while at the wheel.

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Originally posted by exstasie Is this better for you?

Yes, actually. It's much less defensive of Miller and the TTC.

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Originally posted by exstasie German cars ftw!

Let me guess... a Volkswagen Golf or Jetta, coasting at 60 km/h in the left lane?

If it's an Audi, you're forgiven.

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Originally posted by geroin isn't that the same pile of money anyways?

No. FFS. Do you pay municipal taxes to the CRA? I didn't think so. And given the current rate of provincial transfers, the amount of federal taxes you pay that flows back in Toronto is in the red. Most of your federal tax burden that does end up going to cities/provinces ends up in Quebec and the east coast.

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Originally posted by Time2Burn +1.... yes that's right digi I agree with you.

After six simultaneous heart attacks I can only say: wow.

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Originally posted by geroin i understand, but why are we there?

Because civilized nations support their allies. Is it really that difficult for you to understand?

On a final note - does it strike anybody as odd that Miller wants to slash budgets at the TTC, police, and emergency service, but hasn't even considered the idea of scrapping the make-work city projects that nobody wanted in the first place, like screwing up the St. Clair streets and destroying the Gardiner Expressway (for waterfront "attractions" yet unknown)?

Really, don't be so quick to point fingers at our city services for wasting money. They waste plenty, definitely, but a lot of this disappearing money is due to useless and expensive pet projects for Miller himself.

Miller wants all the city services to sling mud at each other. It shifts the spotlight away from all the damage he did personally.

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Originally posted by MikeyN fuckin right, i may venture into lower bay soon

shuddup

if you go, im coming with you!

Where do tax dollars go

Where tax dollars go

Police and fire services, public transit, social programs and debt charges will account for 71 per cent of property-tax revenue in 2007.
2007 PROPERTY TAX BREAKDOWN Total = $2,174.60*

Police Service & Board $531.52
Debt Charges $265.99
Fire Services $226.93
Social Services $182.87
Shelter, Support & Housing Administration $173.06
TTC (including Wheel Trans) $160.24
Parks, Forestry & Recreation $153.00
Transportation Services $124.30
Solid Waste Management Services $123.93
Toronto Public Library $101.09
Children's Services $42.73
Emergency Medical Services $41.59
Toronto Public Health $34.03
Community Partnership & Investment Program $28.16
Homes for the Aged $22.05
Economic Development, Culture & Tourism $16.61
City Council $13.27
City Planning $9.06
Municipal Licensing & Standards $7.44
Building Services -$8.08
Other -$75.15

*Based on property tax of $2,174.60 for an average house with an assessed value of $369,300.

source

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Originally posted by djtransid Yes I am, have fun paying 3$ to ride the crowded stinky TTC with the stained seats.

the Yonge-University line isn't bad.. it's the Bloor-Danforth that's ultra ghetto .. see A-Train, NYC

Re: Where do tax dollars go

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Originally posted by endless_summer Where tax dollars go Police and fire services, public transit, social programs and debt charges will account for 71 per cent of property-tax revenue in 2007. 2007 PROPERTY TAX BREAKDOWN Total = $2,174.60* Police Service & Board $531.52 Debt Charges $265.99 Fire Services $226.93 Social Services $182.87 Shelter, Support & Housing Administration $173.06 TTC (including Wheel Trans) $160.24 Parks, Forestry & Recreation $153.00 Transportation Services $124.30 Solid Waste Management Services $123.93 Toronto Public Library $101.09 Children's Services $42.73 Emergency Medical Services $41.59 Toronto Public Health $34.03 Community Partnership & Investment Program $28.16 Homes for the Aged $22.05 Economic Development, Culture & Tourism $16.61 City Council $13.27 City Planning $9.06 Municipal Licensing & Standards $7.44 Building Services -$8.08 Other -$75.15 *Based on property tax of $2,174.60 for an average house with an assessed value of $369,300. source

i'd like to see figures of large cap expenditures factored into that as well ... i think the stated covers just the ongoing costs right?

Re: Re: Where do tax dollars go

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Originally posted by dEsidEL i'd like to see figures of large cap expenditures factored into that as well ... i think the stated covers just the ongoing costs right?

Haha, like the city actually accounts for those.

The debt figure gives you a pretty good idea, though. Imagine spending more than twice as much in interest each year as you spend in transportation, or fully 12% of your annual income. That's a pretty high burn rate...

for all you jayx1'ers out there..

http://www.blogto.com/city/2007/07/...t_ttc_cutbacks/

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Originally posted by dEsidEL for all you jayx1'ers out there.. http://www.blogto.com/city/2007/07/...t_ttc_cutbacks/

LOL

As the greatest Premier in the history of Canada said about the NDP: "They couldn't run a peanut stand."

Comrade Miller is a dangerous man; we have him and Dalton McGuinty to blame for the Stronger City of Toronto for a Stronger Ontario Act, which is where this issue comes from.

^ As oppose to the conservatives that had put kids education at risks with daily teacher strikes, esclated tensions with Natives and introduced massive cuts to social programs...

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Because civilized nations support their allies. Is it really that difficult for you to understand?

OMG! What a brilliant/ tight argument, give this man some sort of an award.

Canada/ any nation in the world can not win an ideological war. We need to leave that country ASAP...

The city is getting the short end of the funding stick... threatening these cut backs is their way of acting out in an effort to get the gov't to toss some more cash their way.

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Originally posted by activate The city is getting the short end of the funding stick... threatening these cut backs is their way of acting out in an effort to get the gov't to toss some more cash their way.

exactly. with the election coming up, they want this to become an election issue.

this is just politics.

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Originally posted by smuncky this is just politics.

ie: a head game.

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Originally posted by Cosmic Fur German cars do extra damage when you hit Jews.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

well if anyone is still curiuos, this is what a ttc operator makes these days.

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What Driving For the TTC Pays In response to a comment in the thread about TTC costs, someone claimed that a TTC operator made $75K per year. The perception of how well paid, or not, an operator is deserves its own thread, and here is a comment I received on the subject from an operator named Gord: Just a quick comment to correct a little bit of mis-information showing up in this discussion. Tom B. states that TTC operators earn about $30.00 per hour. I wish I did. The actual top rate of pay is $26.58 per hour for an operator with over 30 months on the job. Doing the basic math shows that $26.58 X 40 X 52 = $55,286.40 annually. If you factor in the cost of our benefits, pension, etc., I am sure that you can make the argument that we earn more than this but that is not what I actually receive in my pay each week. Just to set the record straight: I am paid for 8 hours and 53 minutes each weekday BUT my actual workday is 11 hours and 46 minutes long because I work split shifts (swing work in TTC parlance). I start work at 5:49 am and do not finish until 5:35 pm with 4 hours and 16 minutes between the two pieces of work that I do. I�fm not complaining; I choose my own work and I enjoy what I do (like most TTC operators). I don�ft have weekends off (but get two weekdays off instead) because only the most senior operators can get this work. In terms of operators/collectors showing up on the Sunshine list, think of how many hours they have had to work to get there. This is because there is a lot more work available than there are operators to do it. In order to provide service, the TTC needs to pay overtime to fill the vacancies. You are correct to state that recruitment is falling short. There are a lot of trainees who do not make it through training, and there are also a number who do not make it through their first year on the job due to the stress involved. Working for the TTC isn�ft a �g9 to 5�� job (unless you drive a night bus). We�fre on the job long before most people even wake up in order to be there when they want to go to work. I�fm sorry about the length of this comment (maybe you could start a new topic on the typical day in the life of a TTC operator). Steve: Don�ft worry about the length of the comment. Some of my regular contributors are rather long-winded themselves. Thanks for filling in this information for others to see. Just one bit of clarification: The reason for the oddball amount of time in a day is that an operator is paid for the time actually scheduled for the run plus some basic allowances such as travel time to and from the route if they don�ft pick up the bus or streetcar at a garage or carhouse. Very few operators get exactly 40 hours pay per week because it is impossible to divide up the work that way.

http://www.stevemunro.ca/?p=456

and here another little tidbit...

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Steve: In fact the TTC has had trouble recruiting operators even at the wages you cite. Getting people to apply is relatively easy, but getting them to (a) qualify and (b) stay on the job is much harder Based on a 40 hour week at $30/hour, the annual pay would come to about $62K. Add in benefits and you�fre up to the $75K level that you cite. To get up to $100K per year would require over 500 hours of overtime at time-and-a-half, and that is not something that anyone would do for free. Indeed, not paying someone for overtime is illegal under the labour laws, and there have been court cases to support this. I just looked at the �gsunshine list�h and there are only 17 operators out of the entire TTC staff who made over $100K, and then only barely. If you want to mess with wage rates and working conditions, get ready for (a) a long strike and (b) big problems hiring and retaining good drivers and other staff.

http://www.stevemunro.ca/?p=454

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Originally posted by geroin i understand the way it works, i'm saying if we didn't have to support the troops the budget per province would be much higher than it is now.

I think I'll skip the international consequences of not funding the Afghanistan mission and just go to the national consequences.

The municipal govts already tried to lobby the federal govt for direct transfer payments to cities few years ago. They failed, simply because it'd give feds more headaches. Simply, for example, if Toronto was to get half a billion (not some chump change!) to fund TTC, which only affects Toronto, the other cities are going to scream for the feds to fund their own pet projects and they'd have every right to make a case. Imagine what sort of potential political backlash (and not to mention vote loss) that'd result.

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Originally posted by geroin i understand, but why are we there?

Just part of why Canada's in Afghanistan.

All facts are verifiable from open sources. (This is excerpt from an article from a blog that is to be published soon)

NATO/ISAF PROJECTS

At the national level the NATO led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) development work has ensured that:

1. Millions of girls are back in school with 400,000 new female students starting school for the first time this year;
2. Over 100,000 women benefited from micro finance loans to set up their own business;
3. Over a quarter of parliamentarians are women;
4. Over 7 million girls and boys are in school or higher education;
5. 83% of the population now has access to medical facilities, compared to 9 percent in 2004;
6. 76% of children under the age of five have been immunized against childhood diseases;
7. More than 4000 medical facilities opened since 2004;
8. Over 600 midwives were trained and deployed in every province of Afghanistan;
9. GDP growth estimates of between12-14% for the current year;
10. Government revenues increased by around 25% from 2005/06 to 2006/07;
11. Income per capita of $355, compared to $180 three years ago;
12. Afghanistan is one of the fastest growing economies in South-East Asia;
13. Over 4000 km of roads have been completed;
14. Work has begun on 20,000 new homes for Afghans returning to Kabul;
15. Over 1 billion square metres (roughly 32 km X 32 km) of mine contaminated land cleared;
16. 10 universities are operating around the country, against one (barely functioning) under the Taliban; and
17. 17,000 communities benefited from development programmes such as wells, schools, hospitals and roads through the Government�s National Solidarity Program (NSP).


Most of those projects have some, often substantial, Canadian components: money, management and personnel. Some, like (13) new roads and (17) new wells and schools, are the work-a-day projects of the Canadian soldiers in the Kandahar Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT) who are managing or doing the building and rebuilding using funds provided by the Canadian International Development Agency.

Further, the creation of the sorts of institutions which will make it possible for Afghans, themselves, to address their own political problems in their own ways � but free of dangerous fundamentalist propaganda � is also underway in the form of communications and information technology development which facilitates the free exchange of ideas and information:

18. 10% of Afghans now own a mobile phone, compared to 2 lines per 1000 people in 2001;
19. 150 cities across Afghanistan now have access to mobile phone networks and internet provider services; and
20. 7 national TV stations (6 private); numerous radio networks, plus a diverse and increasingly robust and professional print media are up and running.

That's 20 out of a much longer list of ISAF projects.

Do I need to list Canadian sponsored projects? Or list all the moral arguments of why we should be in Afghanistan?

Believe me. I can go on allllllll daaaaaaay

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Originally posted by ravr ^ As oppose to the conservatives that had put kids education at risks with daily teacher strikes, esclated tensions with Natives and introduced massive cuts to social programs...

I'm sorry, but did you just blame the Conservative party for domestic terrorism and union corruption that existed long before the Conservatives ever came into power in Ontario? And the only "escalated tensions" with "Natives" in living memory are the ones that have happened recently, under McGuinty.

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Canada/ any nation in the world can not win an ideological war. We need to leave that country ASAP...

Oh no? You don't consider World War II or the Cold War to be ideological wars? I think you need to reread your history books. Every war is based on either ideology or natural resources, and most wars throughout history have been the former.

What we're seeing now globally, but especially in Afghanistan, is small potatoes, especially in terms of lives lost. It's just dragging on longer because one side uses exclusively guerilla tactics and often targets civilians instead of soldiers. The only way to win such a war is persistence. Too bad that the people who are trying to do that are constantly being chipped away at by the pacifists saying we need to "leave that country ASAP". Great idea - we'll just wait for them to come here. Or did you have a 3rd option in mind, other than the non-starter of "dialogue"?

Oh Please, the conservatives specifically targeted teachers and health care workers.... As result, we got major cuts to the health system and every 2 months or so threat of teacher strikes/ class disruptions, loss of many educators/ over crowed classes. Absoulty disgusting.

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"Natives" in living memory are the ones that have happened recently, under McGuinty.

Nothing like what happened with Dudley George under the conservatives.

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Oh no? You don't consider World War II or the Cold War to be ideological wars?

You can fight nations, but the war on 'terrorism' is unwinnable just like the war on drugs.

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The only way to win such a war is persistence.

Oh yes, the old, 'we must stay the course', with no real plan on our part.

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we'll just wait for them to come here.

HAHA, do you like tape record Dubya's speeches? oh, we have to fight them there instead of here lol. If you have no heard, in a recenty study, Al Quida has gotten stronger ever since the war on "terror" and they are actually recuriting people to carry out missions in the US.
Canada should not be in the business of nation building. It has never worked, it will never work.

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