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The talent and heart is missing only from those who have been in it long enough IMO.

The new producers have technical talent and heart, but the problem is they are so obsessed with recreating what they have already heard for themselves that they produce the same stuff over and over. I know people personally who produce music this way. It's really immature, almost like "I want to be just like Robert Nickson" or "I want to make music that Armin would be proud of " They sit there for hours and they try to recreate sounds and structures of tracks. The only thing they modify is the midi of the lead and then the key of the track. They spend a ton of time obsessing over the frequency spectrum and the compression of the kick that they got from a trance sample pack

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec *img* http://www.lilgeocartoons.com/celeb...in-Franklin.gif */img*

I don't know, I wonder how many producers are actually motivated mostly or purely by money. Though I wouldn't doubt that lots are motivated by fame, which can come attached with money, and the money explanation becomes more plausible when wondering why record labels keep signing tracks with the exact same formula.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec The talent and heart is missing only from those who have been in it long enough IMO. The new producers have technical talent and heart, but the problem is they are so obsessed with recreating what they have already heard for themselves that they produce the same stuff over and over. I know people personally who produce music this way. It's really immature, almost like "I want to be just like Robert Nickson" or "I want to make music that Armin would be proud of "

I guess a more appropriate question would be "what would you like to see in trance tracks that would make you think they were made with heart and talent?" Beyond "sounding different."

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec They spend a ton of time obsessing over the frequency spectrum and the compression of the kick that they got from a trance sample pack

Yeah, just go take a look at the production forum right here. To most of the people there trance seems to be just numbers and waveforms - they care more about the technicalities than the result.

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Yeah, just go take a look at the production forum right here. To most of the people there trance seems to be just numbers and waveforms - they care more about the technicalities than the result.

Technicalities can be discussed since there is a level of objectiveness. Most things technical are fairly black and white (with exceptions). How to get rid of clipping, how to "sidechain compress", etc. It's much harder to say "how can I put more heart and soul into my tracks"? If you're asking that in the first place, you're already in the wrong hobby.

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Originally posted by david.michael Technicalities can be discussed since there is a level of objectiveness.

...but when it becomes the only thing you discuss there's something gone very wrong.

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Originally posted by david.michael Could you elaborate on why you think talent and heart is missing? (I'm not saying it is or isn't, I'm just curious as to why you think so.)

Read some public statements from Oliver Lieb or Sasha. I think they both overreacted to the popularity of trance, but their words help explain why the genre lost credibility among many talented producers. In brief, one reason trance lacks talent and heart is because few of serious artistic merit are making it anymore.

What this doesn't explain is why Armin, Chicane, or similarly adept producers from an earlier era decided to stop making soulful music. That part, I have no good answer to. It has infuriated more than one person on this board.

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery ...but when it becomes the only thing you discuss there's something gone very wrong.

Talent is talent and heart is heart; you either have it or you don't. How do you really describe to someone how to put more feeling into their tracks? You can explain minor keys and diminished chords, but beyond that, you can't create the "soul" of a track for anyone.

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Originally posted by david.michael I guess a more appropriate question would be "what would you like to see in trance tracks that would make you think they were made with heart and talent?" Beyond "sounding different."

If I knew this, I'd be making the music. Unfortunately, I'm not BT or Oliver Lieb.

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Originally posted by Cobalt If I knew this, I'd be making the music.

point made.

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Originally posted by david.michael Talent is talent and heart is heart; you either have it or you don't. How do you really describe to someone how to put more feeling into their tracks? You can explain minor keys and diminished chords, but beyond that, you can't create the "soul" of a track for anyone.

I'm not really sure we're even talking about the same thing here. I mean that people only care about the process, not the end product. They don't seem to have any sort of vision about what they want to do - they produce for the sake of producing, not because they have something to "say", so to speak. It's just going through the motions.

I mean I tried to start a discussion on how people pick the titles to their tracks (and how they relate to the track) and got very little out of them. Seemed like most just whack out the first title they can think of to the track.

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...but when it becomes the only thing you discuss there's something gone very wrong.

Definitely, that's where all the heart and talent goes, even when they are just beginning. From my personal experience, you can develop professional sound as you make more and more music, but creativity is not learned. When you're just beginning is the perfect time to experiment, not to strive to replicate perfectly some other standard.


Regarding the title discussion - i know i generally begin with an evocative sound and then build up around it, and sometimes I come up with a title as a concept that arises from the sound early on and then it sort of permeates everything for the duration of the project and gives it a conceptual base that really aids in the creation of a cohesive track. I also work this way in architecture, but there we refer to it as 'tectonics' rather than sound design and 'programming rather than structure, and 'plan' rather than arrangement. I wonder how a lot of people come up with titles as well.

Generally people seem to pick titles the way that they pick avatars online or something. that is, it just looks/sounds cool and somehow 'represents' in a postrational way what it is they made/who they are

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery I'm not really sure we're even talking about the same thing here. I mean that people only care about the process, not the end product. They don't seem to have any sort of vision about what they want to do - they produce for the sake of producing, not because they have something to "say", so to speak. It's just going through the motions. I mean I tried to start a discussion on how people pick the titles to their tracks (and how they relate to the track) and got very little out of them. Seemed like most just whack out the first title they can think of to the track.

I see what you are saying, I just don't understand how you could really determine from a message board whether people are just going through the motions or if they really care about what they are producing. I got into a discussion with a rock musician who was almost indicating that I am not passionate about my music because I don't really have the tactile, tangible feel of playing the music. You know as well as I that just because our music is typically "programmed" instead of "played" doesn't mean that there is no passion or "heart", or care for the end-result.

I asked him if Mozart or Beethoven didn't have any passion when they were composing rather than playing.

Most people don't get on a message board about electronic music to figure out how to get inspired, they get on there because they either can't figure out how to turn their inspiration/feelings into the sound they are going for, or they are trying to be a sheep cranking out another repeat same-old track that they have heard before. But how do you really know the difference just because someone isn't sure what compression settings to use on their kick?

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Originally posted by david.michael I see what you are saying, I just don't understand how you could really determine from a message board whether people are just going through the motions or if they really care about what they are producing.

The endless wave of samey sounding tracks might be telling something...

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery The endless wave of samey sounding tracks might be telling something...

I fully admit not listening to a mass amount of tracks in there, so maybe I haven't noticed it as much as you.

Static Blue and Carl B are the same person, right?


right?

....

wrong

Carl B = Carl Barrdahl = Peak

Static Blue = Jonathan Blakoe = Maava

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles The subjective part is that I'm tired of it. The objective part of the matter is that this kind of music really does use all the same sounds in almost exactly the same way. I'm trying to produce a bit myself, and I honestly can't see how it would be enjoyable to craft ten different versions of the same ten or so sounds ("aah" choir, saw pad, saw lead, etc.) and use them in the exact same kind of song structure again and again. Have you ever tried to produce or do anything artistic? If so, do you understand how somebody could enjoy doing that? Maybe somebody could explain that to me, because I find it really baffling.

lol, good thing you decided to get into trance and not classical...

you'd get bored with the same old "10" instruments and hate on the whole genre.

damn violins always being used for emotional tribulation...

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Originally posted by nefardec I'm not criticizing you personally, and I don't want to, so please calm down. Go listen to some chicane or something . If you read my post calmly before overreacting and quoting it you would see that I question even my own taste in music. I have mixes from a few years back with armand van helden and thrillseekers in them... what's important is that i don't anymore

AVH owns you

lol and jerry ropero too

Re: Re: The trance formula

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog Perhaps for the same reason that people continue to make formulaic threads about how shit trance is these days?

touche.....


the trance hate bandwagon is pretty full and pretty old now, dont ya think? if u dont like it, why are u on this site? to talk shit and ramble on b/c it makes u feel better atnight?


not everyone is gonna like the same things u do, what u may dislike, ppl may really love.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnus Whatever sounds good to me, thats all that matters. If it comes from a formula, so be it.

agreed. if it sounds good to me, i listen and enjoy it. i dont try to analyze every song and deconstruct it and judge it piece by piece like some of u do.

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Originally posted by SuspicionVandit indeed. money is awesome (or so i hear)

lol. ask someone what Hooj use to pay in advance back in the day.

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Originally posted by AustralianGQ agreed. if it sounds good to me, i listen and enjoy it. i dont try to analyze every song and deconstruct it and judge it piece by piece like some of u do.

Eh, some people have low standards, some people have higher ones. If these types of discussion are so unpleasant for you, then (using your same idea) why read them? Why post?

People keep making trance records that sound the same because they think that's what they should sound like.

When the songwriter for an unsigned garage band of four 15 year olds sits down and writes his first song, which he imagines will become a Number One, he writes one that sounds just like every other rock song out there. And he'll sit back and admire his work and be proud because it sounds just like what his heroes would have written. He has no voice of his own yet.

You show me one trance producer who's been around for five years or more who keeps making trance records in the formula described. I can't think of anyone. Some artists write lots of tracks that sound the same- but they've found their own voice over the years and their tracks sound like their own. Most artists simply evolve and move on over time.

What you have here is a genre of artists who are all new, are all finding their feet and are all copying what they think is the Right Formula. Make a track as the opening post tells you and it will sound professional.

And there's a genre of new listeners coming through on the Internet- and it is mainly on the Internet, because nobody outside of Holland gives a fuck about epic trance in the real world anymore- who've no idea of context and history and will download this stuff and love it. They've not got chance to find their own feet either, but the Internet gives them unlimited listening power and the ability to vote for a DJ they've probably never seen in flesh.

It's a scene that feeds itself and will perpetuate itself: new producers make tracks that sound like the rest and get signed because they're made on cheap software that sounds professional. New listeners who haven't got bored of the formula or who don't know it is a formula keep bolstering their success. And as long as the big labels can stay in money and keep control over the scene, they'll keep this up all night long.

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