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Originally posted by inconspicuous I think it's about 2.80 or 2.90 here. haven't done much driving lately.

damn, i thought it would have been cheaper.

Just what is America�s obsession with HUGE cars? Why would you want to drive a massive lumbering thing when you could drive zippy sports to fly in and out of traffic, and nab all the best parking spots? Fair enough if you�re a hick farmer down south who needs a big car, but what reason do people in big cities like Miami, Chicago and L.A etc have?

Every person seems to drive a borderline truck over there. All the cars that come out of America are butt-ugly (link), with hunks of cheap plastic stuck all over them and massive, over styled grilles. American cars are as stupid as they are ugly too, with the general premise being �all brawn, no brains�, i.e a gas-guzzling V12 engine, but shit handling so that you can�t do anything with it anyway.

In conclusion ladies and gentlemen: American cars suck.

p.s to be fair, two of the cars discussed by Maddox are made by foreign companies, however the Chevy Avalanche exemplifies exactly what I�m talking about.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog In conclusion ladies and gentlemen: American cars suck.

I drive a nissan?

i bought my truck to help w/ moving things - and its done a lot better of a job than a tiny little ford festiva hatchback ever would.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog what is America�s obsession with HUGE

michael bay

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog Just what is America�s obsession with HUGE cars? Why would you want to drive a massive lumbering thing when you could drive zippy sports to fly in and out of traffic, and nab all the best parking spots? Fair enough if you�re a hick farmer down south who needs a big car, but what reason do people in big cities like Miami, Chicago and L.A etc have? Every person seems to drive a borderline truck over there. All the cars that come out of America are butt-ugly (link), with hunks of cheap plastic stuck all over them and massive, over styled grilles. American cars are as stupid as they are ugly too, with the general premise being �all brawn, no brains�, i.e a gas-guzzling V12 engine, but shit handling so that you can�t do anything with it anyway. In conclusion ladies and gentlemen: American cars suck. p.s to be fair, two of the cars discussed by Maddox are made by foreign companies, however the Chevy Avalanche exemplifies exactly what I�m talking about.

I've already addressed most of what you said in this thread.

As for the actual American car manufacturers, though, I completely agree. They're absolutely obsessed with horsepower, so they spend all the money on the engine, and none on the suspension or transmission, and produce cars that are no fun to drive unless you're going in a straight line. It's a big part of the reason why the whole industry is on its death bed. GM is arguably the most poorly run company in the world, and at the root of it all is the fact that they just don't understand what makes a good car.

That said, SUVs are made by everyone.

There's a big difference between defending someone who doesn't care about gas mileage and defending a manufacturer with the same stance. While there's nothing wrong with ignoring that factor, most people don't, and the manufacturer needs to understand that.

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Originally posted by inconspicuous and none of those hiveminds is big enough to include everyone. There's no single stereotype that's universally applicable or even accepted, no matter how many people in one circle can laugh at it.

You're leaning into the territory of stereotypical forum trolling rather than debate making accusations I'm angry, attacking me rather than the argument. Like all statistics you get a bit of variance either side of the median, but most are just some kind of average statistic when it comes to all those things.

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The whole SUVs = crazy, hick soccer moms from bumblefuck, USA, who vote republican for no reason, hate gays, and are too stupid to understand the environment is what's behind this plug, anyway, and it's just tired and ignorant.

Yes, but most people are ignorant, do you think I like being lumped into the 'Asian women can't drive' clich�? Even though I've held a competition motorsport licence, a pilots licence and done several advanced driving courses at various points of my life. No, course I don't, but I do respect the fact that there's an awful lot of similarities between certain stereotypes and what actually happens on the road. Most women get their licences in cereal packets and most men get theirs by clubbing someone that looks like them over the head and stealing it if their actual skill level, attention span and behaviour behind the wheel of a very heavy vehicle is anything to go by.
Regardless of fuel use, roadhandling, convenience/inconvenience and actual intended purpose, the majority of owners seem to buy them for the perceived safety, social status and intimidation factor more than any other reason.

a vehicle is defined by what it can carry.
the only car i will own is some two-seater, sunday drivin', eyes-poppin', fun car.

as for my daily driver, it is 3/4 ton truck or no dice.
trucks make it happen, cars are for fun.
that's just me, everyone has their opinion on vehicles based on what they use or need them for.


when your broke down, i'll gladly pull you home with my Truck.

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Originally posted by inconspicuous I've already addressed most of what you said in this thread. As for the actual American car manufacturers, though, I completely agree. They're absolutely obsessed with horsepower, so they spend all the money on the engine, and none on the suspension or transmission, and produce cars that are no fun to drive unless you're going in a straight line. It's a big part of the reason why the whole industry is on its death bed. GM is arguably the most poorly run company in the world, and at the root of it all is the fact that they just don't understand what makes a good car. That said, SUVs are made by everyone. There's a big difference between defending someone who doesn't care about gas mileage and defending a manufacturer with the same stance. While there's nothing wrong with ignoring that factor, most people don't, and the manufacturer needs to understand that.

re: SUV safety, which you discussed with Lilith, SUVs are not safter usually. Of course, a Hummer would, but 4WD of the Toyota/range rover type have high centres of gravity which makes them more likely to roll, and, as Lilith said, their weight gives them shit handling at high speed, which makes them more susceptible to slipping off the road.

Also, it�s inconsiderate to drive a Hummer etc if you have no need for it, because whoever you crash into is going to get shat on. In this case you can�t use the �it�s natural to care about your own safety� argument because well, I care about my welfare, as do all my friends and family, and we don�t see the need to drive borderline trucks around; it�s just pure selfishness if you do.

Actually, the biggest problem I have with these big vehicles is not so much that people buy them; it�s that they cannot drive them. The big vehicle phenomenon is not so far gone here from what I can ascertain, but we still have a lot of what you guys call �soccer mums� (why never �football mums�???) driving huge, hulking 4WDs around. If they actually had any idea how to drive them, it would probably be ok, but the reality is that they have no fucking clue. It�s painful trying to watch them get into a five metre wide, drive in spot that could fit two cars, and seeing them take six tries while eight cars are queued up behind them.

So, because you're aggravated by a stereotype that people apply to you, you've decided to return the favor to any and all?

Most people are ignorant, regardless of race, gender, sexuality, religion, location, income, education, politics, personality, and values. There's almost no statement you can make about any human pattern that you can attribute solely to a set of characteristics which does not include ignorance. People buy SUVs due to ignorance. People buy hybrids due to ignorance. People buy sedans due to ignorance. People take public transportation & ride bikes due to ignorance.

As for the actual acquisition of licenses, the flaw in the process is in the test, itself. It's not that men or women manipulate it more. It's that the standards have to be set to a point at which it doesn't affect productivity on a large scale, but lowering it to that point allows people who compromise the safety of roads at what would otherwise be an unacceptable level to still drive. Stereotypes don't play any role in that.

Finally, I don't think you can effectively summarize the reasoning of an entire group of people without either comprehensive data or unquestionable logic--neither of which you have presented.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog re: SUV safety, which you discussed with Lilith, SUVs are not safter usually. Of course, a Hummer would, but 4WD of the Toyota/range rover type have high centres of gravity which makes them more likely to roll, and, as Lilith said, their weight gives them shit handling at high speed, which makes them more susceptible to slipping off the road. Also, it�s inconsiderate to drive a Hummer etc if you have no need for it, because whoever you crash into is going to get shat on. In this case you can�t use the �it�s natural to care about your own safety� argument because well, I care about my welfare, as do all my friends and family, and we don�t see the need to drive borderline trucks around; it�s just pure selfishness if you do. Actually, the biggest problem I have with these big vehicles is not so much that people buy them; it�s that they cannot drive them. The big vehicle phenomenon is not so far gone here from what I can ascertain, but we still have a lot of what you guys call �soccer mums� (why never �football mums�???) driving huge, hulking 4WDs around. If they actually had any idea how to drive them, it would probably be ok, but the reality is that they have no fucking clue. It�s painful trying to watch them get into a five metre wide, drive in spot that could fit two cars, and seeing them take six tries while eight cars are queued up behind them.

First, there are two aspects to safety--avoiding accidents and controlling the damage. Some people think it's safer to have a car that can avoid hitting something, some people think it's safer to have something that, if it is involved in an accident, will more effectively protect the people inside. I've never seen any statistics as to which is a more effective method, and it would be difficult to measure, since it would require quantifying the severity of injuries.

People buy things they don't need, and should be able to. It's not illegal to own an SUV, and there are people who have legitimate uses for them. There's no way to effectively differentiate between the two, so unless you want to ban SUVs entirely, then it's just short-sighted.

As it is with ignorance, bad driving is a universal attribute. Bad drivers drive all sorts of vehicles, so labeling any one group as being worse than any other is the product of bias, not reason.

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Originally posted by Lilith Yes, but most people are ignorant, do you think I like being lumped into the 'Asian women can't drive' clich�? Even though I've held a competition motorsport licence, a pilots licence and done several advanced driving courses at various points of my life.

...and that's where you fail.

A blind guy can take an advanced driving course, but it won't make him a good driver.

Also, a motorsport license is a hefty achievement, my congratulations, however, besides a better knowledge of car handling, how will this help you analyse traffic situations and increase your spatial awareness?

Everything above was just a mean joke, but in all seriousness, those driving courses are great. Not so much for generally making you a �good� driver, but more so sharpening your skills should you have an accident, I�ve learnt heaps from the ones I�ve done. I highly recommend to all.

The biggest problems on Australian roads, as I see it, is the �special awareness� thing, which is borne out of people�s attitudes. When I get in the car, I switch my mind onto the task at hand, and that�s it, concentrate. A majority of people I see are off in fucking la la land, because they�re not taking things seriously in the car, and have their mind on other things, like if that rash on their genitals is going to clear up or not.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog The biggest problems on Australian roads, as I see it, is the �special awareness� thing, which is borne out of people�s attitudes. When I get in the car, I switch my mind onto the task at hand, and that�s it, concentrate. A majority of people I see are off in fucking la la land, because they�re not taking things seriously in the car, and have their mind on other things, like if that rash on their genitals is going to clear up or not.

I'm not disagreeing at all, though I'm sure everybody's had moments like that. Some people make it a daily practice, though.

The problem is, though, as I mentioned before, raising the requirements to the point of diminishing returns with respect to driving skill would have too great an impact on daily life for the world as a whole.

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Originally posted by inconspicuous Finally, I don't think you can effectively summarize the reasoning of an entire group of people without either comprehensive data or unquestionable logic--neither of which you have presented.

4wds kill people quite effectively and cause substantial amounts of accidents to the point where it has been debated in parliament over here.

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Road Safety and Driver Attitudes 4WD accident problems form part of wider road safety issues.(5) With the New Year release of annual road accident statistics, the abhorrent reality of deaths, injuries and social effects on the community receives wide attention. Campaigns against drink driving, speeding, traffic light infringements and seat belt non-use have led to reductions in the carnage, but the accident rates seem to be stagnating. The rise in 4WD use is not helping to arrest the trend. Commentators attribute the difficulty in further reducing the road toll to entrenched community attitudes. The ownership and operation of a car is often viewed as a public right, with little regard to safety. Anyone holding a driver's licence may purchase a car of any size or capacity, as long as it meets local design rules. There is no restriction on engine power or the capable speeds of motor vehicles and bikes, or bans on bull bar use. Poor driving attitudes may often cause disruption, carelessness and accidents. Selfish, aggressive driver behaviour on our roads is all too frequently seen. Courtesy and respect for others often appears replaced by a vengeful lust for road dominance, based on anonymity. There is an argument that people need to be taught the correct ways to drive, rather than only be sanctioned and penalised. However, currently, the primary response appears to be a push for tougher punitive sanctions against those responsible for road deaths and injuries. Maybe both measures have a role. Note too, that the design of vehicles and roads also affects driver performance and outcomes.

Rest of the article
It's a lengthy read, yes I am an opinionated bitch, I've never professed to be a saint.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog Everything above was just a mean joke

Alright I won't bother replying then because it's nonsense

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Originally posted by Lilith 4wds kill people quite effectively and cause substantial amounts of accidents to the point where it has been debated in parliament over here. Rest of the article It's a lengthy read, yes I am an opinionated bitch, I've never professed to be a saint.

it is due to their driving skills, or lack thereof, and their attitude.


people cryin' about how they feel weak in their vehicles is lame,
it is them that feel weak, no matter the vehicle.

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Originally posted by VAR it is due to their driving skills, or lack thereof, and their attitude. people cryin' about how they feel weak in their vehicles is lame, it is them that feel weak, no matter the vehicle.

Yes, and they go looking for what is essentially an item which will perceivably bolster that weakness.
Cant drive, hit things/other people often- buy a 4WD
Look poor, are poor, everyone else has one- buy a 4WD
Angry, frustrated, feel like killing people- buy a 4WD
Feel like you're going to be killed by a 4WD- buy a 4WD

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There is a less clear but loud claim that 4WD drivers tend to be more aggressive than those in regular vehicles. Certainly the bulk and height of 4WD vehicles may appear intimidating to other users and be used to force them out of the way.

The statistics in that report are far from what I'd call reliable, as many of them are potentially misleading, strangely worded, or just sound quite suspicious (35% of SUVs & 13% of cars involved in fatal rollover crashes?).

That point above is also exactly what I'm referring to. There's nothing to support it but the consensus of a group with myriad other reasons to already dislike SUVs and the people who drive them.

would you two get a room already? fuck. LOL

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Originally posted by VAR it is due to their driving skills, or lack thereof, and their attitude. people cryin' about how they feel weak in their vehicles is lame, it is them that feel weak, no matter the vehicle.

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Originally posted by Lilith Yes, and they go looking for what is essentially an item which will perceivably bolster that weakness. Cant drive, hit things/other people often- buy a 4WD Look poor, are poor, everyone else has one- buy a 4WD Angry, frustrated, feel like killing people- buy a 4WD Feel like you're going to be killed by a 4WD- buy a 4WD

@ both.

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Originally posted by inconspicuous First, there are two aspects to safety--avoiding accidents and controlling the damage. Some people think it's safer to have a car that can avoid hitting something, some people think it's safer to have something that, if it is involved in an accident, will more effectively protect the people inside. I've never seen any statistics as to which is a more effective method, and it would be difficult to measure, since it would require quantifying the severity of injuries.

I don�t think sedans are necessarily better at avoiding accidents, they are just safer when you do have an accident, both for you and the people around you, far safer than SUVs in that way.

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Originally posted by inconspicuous People buy things they don't need, and should be able to. It's not illegal to own an SUV, and there are people who have legitimate uses for them. There's no way to effectively differentiate between the two, so unless you want to ban SUVs entirely, then it's just short-sighted.

You can�t ban SUVs entirely, that�s ridiculous. I�m just having some fun moaning about the people who do buy them who really have no need.

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Originally posted by inconspicuous As it is with ignorance, bad driving is a universal attribute. Bad drivers drive all sorts of vehicles, so labeling any one group as being worse than any other is the product of bias, not reason.

SUV/4WD drivers aren�t necessarily worse than sedan drivers, it�s just that those cars are harder to drive due to the fact that they are bigger and slower. You need to brake more proactively than in a normal sedan, and treat the car well in corners etc. Also they are harder to park.

Therein lies my point�not everyone can drive an SUV properly, so they shouldn�t, in the same way that some people who can�t even drive a normal car shouldn�t.

I drive a Corolla.

I feel like it's too big sometimes. Ie, I have to move my 65kg or so body to work, but I have to lug another 1500kg with me.

But then it's like, will it rain on me if I take a motorcycle? I'll be more safe in a car, it's comfortable, helps moving house, going to the shop etc. It's rather complicated.

Some things about SUV safety though:
-car crumple zones are designed for collisions with cars, suvs often override them
-suv suspension is stiffer, even small collisions can result in damage to the occupants
-more likely to roll

My gut feeling is that cars are safer, the 'safety' in an SUV is just in your head.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog I don�t think sedans are necessarily better at avoiding accidents, they are just safer when you do have an accident, both for you and the people around you, far safer than SUVs in that way.

I'd say they are better at avoiding some types of accidents, and that's why there's a debate. Obviously, if you get broadsided at an intersection, there's nothing you can do, but if something goes flying in front of you (like the mattress that came off the truck in front of my mom a few months ago), or somebody suddenly just veers over into your lane, a vehicle with good handling has a better ability to avoid the accident in the first place. When you have an accident, though, an SUV is safer for you, so the 2nd part of that statement doesn't make sense, either.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog You can�t ban SUVs entirely, that�s ridiculous. I�m just having some fun moaning about the people who do buy them who really have no need.

That's my point, though. You can't ban them entirely, so there will always be people who buy them for no practical purpose, so people need to get over that fact.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog SUV/4WD drivers aren�t necessarily worse than sedan drivers, it�s just that those cars are harder to drive due to the fact that they are bigger and slower. You need to brake more proactively than in a normal sedan, and treat the car well in corners etc. Also they are harder to park. Therein lies my point�not everyone can drive an SUV properly, so they shouldn�t, in the same way that some people who can�t even drive a normal car shouldn�t.

I guess that's a valid point. At the same time, though, I would point out that those things are all fairly obvious, and that most people will adjust to the car. If you feel the weight shifting on a corner, you're not likely to just keep on as you were, expecting it to work itself out, since it's a car. People aren't too bright, but they're not intentionally stupid.

They are harder to park, and that's the other major reason you rarely see them in cities (aside from the fact that there's less practical use).

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Originally posted by inconspicuous I'd say they are better at avoiding some types of accidents, and that's why there's a debate. Obviously, if you get broadsided at an intersection, there's nothing you can do, but if something goes flying in front of you (like the mattress that came off the truck in front of my mom a few months ago), or somebody suddenly just veers over into your lane, a vehicle with good handling has a better ability to avoid the accident in the first place. When you have an accident, though, an SUV is safer for you, so the 2nd part of that statement doesn't make sense, either.

I disagree, I think that for the driver, a sedan is safer than an SUV, as the guy two posts up said.

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Originally posted by inconspicuous I guess that's a valid point. At the same time, though, I would point out that those things are all fairly obvious, and that most people will adjust to the car. If you feel the weight shifting on a corner, you're not likely to just keep on as you were, expecting it to work itself out, since it's a car. People aren't too bright, but they're not intentionally stupid. They are harder to park, and that's the other major reason you rarely see them in cities (aside from the fact that there's less practical use).

I agree, people aren't intentionally stupid, yet they still are.

How often do you see people doing stupid shit like using the phone and touching the CD player the same time, with no hands on the wheel?

Pretty often.

Elementary car safety: keep your hands on the wheel. If they can't do that, how can they drive an SUV?

It�s crazy to think that a person with no interest in cars (most people) is going to know, or care, about how the car handles and adjust their driving accordingly. They will still brake too late, they will still tailgate, and they will still change lanes without indicating. People in general are shit drivers.

I don't think it takes a ton of skill to recognize the differences from car to car--at least to a point of effectively operating in normal traffic.

And yes, in general, people are bad drivers. That's the point. Some people want to throw a spotlight on bad drivers who own SUVs not because they're necessarily worse, but because of other agendas, and they can do it because, like with all other vehicles, there are a lot of bad drivers in SUVs.

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Originally posted by iclone as a middle-aged druggie and alcoholic, i occasionally live in my toyota 4runner. true story.

lmao!

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Originally posted by chach lmao!

are you surprised?

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