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-- Insecurity, self-esteem and post-modern life
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quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Was not!

Was too!

It contained 110% less condescending irony.

Ok, so like 94% less, but ffs guys, the extra 16% was just me hyperbolizing.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Was too! It contained 110% less condescending irony. Ok, so like 94% less, but ffs guys, the extra 16% was just me hyperbolizing.

Dude, condescending irony is FTW in PoMo land.

Get with the program.

Waaaaaaaait a minute...I get it...this thread is about dicks, isn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Waaaaaaaait a minute...I get it...this thread is about dicks, isn't it?

Aha! A fellow postmodernist.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Aha! A fellow postmodernist.

Am not!

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Waaaaaaaait a minute...I get it...this thread is about dicks, isn't it?

*you're* a dick!

See what I did there?

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On *you're* a dick! See what I did there?

Man, Futurama was one of the best shows ever.

I guess what some of you are saying (about competition and the need to look strong) might be indeed the reason behind this "security arms race". We all want to look stronger than someone that might harm us

kr00t0n also raises and interesting point, and I'm going to think about it for a while

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Lira is saying that everyone has insecurities, and I'm saying I don't believe that.

Maybe our concept of insecurity is different in some fundamental way, and I wish I had been more clear in my original post (a friend of mine dropped by and I decided to post just my main thought ).

Yes, I do see existence as being inherently insecure, and I can't find a good reason to think otherwise. We're limited, both in space and time, and that gives us a frustratingly restricted picture of what's around us. We've got no direct access to any mind other than our own, and our access to other minds (through language) is often full of problems: we can be lied to, and we can easily misunderstand what's being said.

Given our finiteness, I really can't see how someone is able to be "secure". Unless, miraculously, this person is peacefully detached from everything else (i.e. this person has reached some kind of Nirvana), without resorting to some kind of denial. That's possible, but unlikely to happen.

Also, when I say we're all insecure, I'm not saying we're all equally insecure. Not all of us are neurotic, after all. In all definitions, there's some "fuzziness" between the ideal member and the real members. That's quite common when dealing with universals. Therefore, I know we're not all 30 year old paranoiacs living in our parents' basement sending romantic lettahs to girls we're afraid to meet, but we're far from being omnipresent, omniscient and omniwhatever

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie now you go into work or out for the night feeling insecure about yourself so that you get positive feedback? I don't think the "post-modern" world forces anyone to hide insecurity

Hmm... that's not quite what I meant to say (and, once again, I do believe that's my fault for being too brief ).

The reason why I mentioned Insecurity's screen name is the fact that it was part of a eye-opening experience that naturally began in real life. Teenage girls (during my teens) have repeatedly told me they're insecure and how they wanted boys to be confident. Boys, on the other hand, weren't protected by shields and shells, being subject to all kinds of drama. As I grew older, I found out that age didn't change anything. And this was the kind of example you asked me, right?

One of the most heart-breaking scenes I've ever witnessed was a Philosophy professor being massacred by the words of a student. His PhD (in England), his published books and all his word had become meaningless when the student unfairly hit this professor's weak spot.

Yet another Applied Linguistics professor, one of the most important names in his area, simply couldn't be himself near the chairwoman of my department. He seemed afraid of being criticised near his students by a catty colleague, even though this snarky woman is not an example of academic excellence.

Actually, a careful reading of Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolution is enough to show that scientists are not special in that sense.

And I don't think the post-modern words forces us to hide our insecurity. Quite the contrary, I think it gives us the opportunity to "embrace" it.

quote:

Originally posted by Boomer187 i fully disagree here!!!

lol

quote:

Originally posted by Boomer187 and dude, you are waaaaaayyyy too secure about your insecurities. And I use the defense mechanism of humor to deal with mine

You think so? My girlfriend often tells me something similar, heh

Anyay, I'd love to hear your take on this issue

We have to go beyond humans on this one. Think of all mammals. If a strong animal who ruled his or her respective ecosystem showed signs of a cowardly personality, the weaker animals would take advantage of it. Same with humans; we open a weak spot and perhaps a member of the opposite sex or even members of the same sex will no longer see you as a capable member of our lifestyle. We are meant to be strong and we are meant to be confident because that is our animal instincts. We all want to look stronger because we dont want to spend our one life on this planet looking weak. People are proud to be alive, and naturally stand up for the fact, with out without hiding particular insecurities.

People who are not insecure are the ones that realized this long ago. We only live one life, so why not enjoy the life you were given? Stop analyzing your flaws and instead focus entirely on your good traits.

damn lira
that one post was about the same length as the rest of the thread

but yeah, i don't think that weaknesses and insecurities are the same thing
(in)security is the measure of how you deal with your weaknesses

on a not completely unrelated note, heard some really cool stuff the other night on the radio (local college station)
it was ambient stuff behind two guys talking very passionately about life in general. seemed straight out of waking life. one thing they went on about was control.

one thought i thought was interesting: if you try to succeed, you risk failure, you risk not having control. the only way you can truly ensure having control over your life is by setting out to fail, to be self-destructive. you may destroy everything good in your life, but you can look around and have confidence that you have more control over your life than anyone you see.

quote:

Originally posted by mezzir one thought i thought was interesting: if you try to succeed, you risk failure, you risk not having control. the only way you can truly ensure having control over your life is by setting out to fail, to be self-destructive. you may destroy everything good in your life, but you can look around and have confidence that you have more control over your life than anyone you see.

That's interesting and quite similar to my gf's life philosophy. I used to argue over that with her a lot

She declared that in order to be happier you had to set lowest possible expectations for everything you do in your life. Then, the failure wouldn't mean any disappointment and everything you succeeded in would be just a nice surprise.

But I see no point in being inevitably self-destructive as that doesn't give you any confidence you actually wouldn't fail in that as well. It's just the opposite way of thinking to what majority of people try to achieve but it doesn't imo solve anything.

More suitable would be to restrain from any action. Then, perhaps, you could be more secure about having control over your life.

quote:

Originally posted by paulandrews She declared that in order to be happier you had to set lowest possible expectations for everything you do in your life. Then, the failure wouldn't mean any disappointment and everything you succeeded in would be just a nice surprise.

The fatal flaw in that plan is that for the most part, any 'nice surprises' will only be small.

Low targets mean less reward.

I'll try and explain.

Say you are doing an exam, you set yourself a low expectation of 50%, and you end up getting 60%, this is a nice surprise.

But, by setting the low expectation in the first place, you are far less likely to achieve say 80%, as you weren't aiming that high in the first place.

So whilst the theory does tend to limit disappointment, it also limits a person to mediocrity as the upper echelons are too far out of reach.

In other words, you cannot experience and appreciate the very best life has to offer, without at least experiencing some of the shit.

quote:

Originally posted by paulandrews *snipped for brevity*

Silly attitude to aim for under-achievement rather than a realistic life goal really, mediocrity solves nothing more than basic survival and ultimately leads to discontent at some level, which manifests as... insecurity.
Another poor basis for success and gathering a rolling snowball of insecurity is using other people's success as a yardstick, rather than taking the initiative to come up with your own, which are far more realistic and achievable to your own measure of success.
There's just too many variable to compare one persons perceived success against your own to even start analysing at any depth, life, luck and good management play just a big a part as loss, getting a bad deal, poor start and making a mistake.

Because if you don't come to terms with failure, then you're doomed to either under-achieve and go nowhere, ultimately landing you in insecurity due to an inability to adapt. Or, you end up aiming for something which is completely unrealistic, fanciful and unattainable goal for someone with your life experience, skills and management capabilities.
Set goals you can do well.
Focus on them knowing you can succeed to a level which you regard as success and be aware, that things can change so you will need to adapt on the fly with some tactical planning if need be.
Some things will change in life beyond your control and be prepared to fail because of them, coping with failure is hard and most people don't have the guts to deal with it. It knocks them on their arse and out of the game, but you know what. At least they tried and if life serves you up that baseball to the back of the head, then it's not your fault, the only fault is you not being aware and even then, you can notch that up to a life experience, learning and next time you'll know to duck. Rather than bemoaning how terrible it all is and squandering whatever minutes of happiness are left to you in life.

One last thing people should do at some point without any outside opinion is a critical, hard, no BS assessment of themselves and what they are actually capable of.
Regardless of the government, school institutionalised rote learning and political correct pussy-footing around the subject like its a taboo as terrible as incest.
Come to terms with yourself.
If you're stupid, ignorant, lazy, expect things to come to you, have the attention span of a goldfish and wander around in a dream thinking you're going to be young, tough and healthy forever.
Then it might be time to really consider where you're going in life to improve those personal lacklustre aspects in order to succeed in your life by your standards. Because there will always be those that get a kick in the guts at the start, bemoan that they never get a fair deal and luck always dumps on them.
Well here's something you should know.
Life is always going to be kicking you when you're down, if you let it and if you fail to manage it in such a way that you can cope with those blows. Because life is hard and chances are, you're no where near hard enough to deal with it straight out of the box.

Its also completely acceptable to ask for help when it all gets too damn hard and no person is an island.

quote:

Originally posted by kr00t0n The fatal flaw in that plan is that for the most part, any 'nice surprises' will only be small. Low targets mean less reward. I'll try and explain. Say you are doing an exam, you set yourself a low expectation of 50%, and you end up getting 60%, this is a nice surprise. But, by setting the low expectation in the first place, you are far less likely to achieve say 80%, as you weren't aiming that high in the first place. So whilst the theory does tend to limit disappointment, it also limits a person to mediocrity as the upper echelons are too far out of reach. In other words, you cannot experience and appreciate the very best life has to offer, without at least experiencing some of the shit.

Maybe I should have added that I disagreed with her and used a similar logic as you to oppose her back then. I just mentioned it because mezzir's post reminded me of it. It's not something I stand for.

Yeah again Lira, I understood perfectly well what you meant, it's not a language thing...I don't agree with what you've said at all. You can't speak for everyone. God, I'm actually really annoyed by you saying that. What makes you think that just because "you can't see it", it isn't possible?? Pretty arrogant.

Just because YOU'RE insecure, doesn't mean everybody else is.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Just because YOU'RE insecure, doesn't mean everybody else is.

Set phasers to 'multiply insecurity of target exponentially'

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Yeah again Lira, I understood perfectly well what you meant, it's not a language thing...I don't agree with what you've said at all. You can't speak for everyone. God, I'm actually really annoyed by you saying that. What makes you think that just because "you can't see it", it isn't possible?? Pretty arrogant. Just because YOU'RE insecure, doesn't mean everybody else is.

I said it is possible (in the end of the 3^rd paragraph after quoting you) albeit unlikely, because I do give others the benefit of doubt before making such bold statement. Like when Mayakovsky says that he's heard that there's this one happy person in the world, maybe there is someone who is really secure. I just find it unlikely, and I'd love to hear a different point of view, if you think I'm being unfair.

Anyway, sorry if I have somehow irritated you, I just want to talk about this little idea of mine

Insecure: Knowing your weaknesses and worrying about them, or fabricating false weaknesses and worrying about them.

Secure: Knowing your weaknesses and how to manage them effectively.

Yes, everyone has weaknesses, but insecurity is something much different.

Insecurity has a lot to do with judging others, and like was mentioned, social order and 'norms'. In a lot of ways I am very comfortable with myself, but in a lot of ways very insecure. Personally I have always found that my insecurity is one of my most productive characteristics, because I am rather ambitious and obsessive, and when something bothers me, it is usually inevitable that I turn it around.

by far the biggest insecurity i have is my background as a white, suburban middle class male from ohio. I mean, I have been a bit of an iconoclast even since preschool, and for some reason it just bothers me in the extreme that no matter where I can possibly go in my life, and regardless of what I do, I will always be part of a world which I don't agree with or identify with at all.

this was a force which compelled me to read different things, listen to different music, go to school out of state, have international friends, wear certain clothes (or rather not wear certain clothes), travel, a force which has always made me wish to separate myself from the group with which I believe others would associate me. I don't even like to speak english when I don't have to. In most cases it's not even a conscious thing, but a deeply rooted part of my personality.

i am a bit of a nut case sometimes

In the cases where insecurity is debilitating, I think that's unfortunate, but I can think of many cases where insecurity is empowering.


Fuck, I can think of examples where insecurity changed the course of human history.

hitler anyone?

(edit ok that was an example of where I wish his insecurity had stopped him from obtaining power )

quote:

Originally posted by Lira I just find it unlikely, and I'd love to hear a different point of view, if you think I'm being unfair.

Feeling secure isn't some complex way of life. It's not your place to believe it or not.

Ohhhh well LIRA finds it unlikely, so it must not be true!! Honestly, who do you think you are?? Keep on finding it unlikely if you want...because just like you, it's not my place to change your mind about it.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Honestly, who do you think you are??

Someone who posted an idea in a trance music forum so I could talk about it with other people.

Am I missing something?

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Someone who posted an idea in a trance music forum so I could talk about it with other people. Am I missing something?

Yes: the need of secure people to convince doubters that they really are secure. Really!

Interesting subject... it made me think of a passage from Chekhov's short story, The Lady With The Little Dog, in which Gurov muses about the two lives--public and private--that we all live:

quote:

He had two lives: one, open, seen and known by all who cared to know, full of relative truth and of relative falsehood, exactly like the lives of his friends and acquaintances; and another life running its course in secret. And through some strange, perhaps accidental, conjunction of circumstances, everything that was essential, of interest and of value to him, everything in which he was sincere and did not deceive himself, everything that made the kernel of his life, was hidden from other people; and all that was false in him, the sheath in which he hid himself to conceal the truth -- such, for instance, as his work in the bank, his discussions at the club, his "lower race," his presence with his wife at anniversary festivities -- all that was open. And he judged of others by himself, not believing in what he saw, and always believing that every man had his real, most interesting life under the cover of secrecy and under the cover of night. All personal life rested on secrecy, and possibly it was partly on that account that civilised man was so nervously anxious that personal privacy should be respected.

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