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quote:

Originally posted by RebeL9 I don't really agree. Both Tiesto and Ferry played much more melodic sets back in 99/00. Tiesto went more progressive in 2001 (around the time of his Revolution CD) but until then it was pure epic only. Same goes for Ferry. I didn't compare Armin with PvD but if I would do that then I agree that PvD was also alot diverse back then. His sets at Rosenmontagsrave 2000 is a good example of how he blended styles. But IMO he went very shitty and commercial a few years later. I'm sure it got alot to do with that he also started producing more commercial stuff. And besides. Ferry not playing safe? Just check any recent Ferry set. 50% of his sets are his own tunes. Newer and older. How inspiring...

Paul van Dyk's decline coincided with the release of Reflections. Now I don't want to play the cynic, but in retrospect the change seems deliberate. Back then, everyone though it was a momentary career misstep, or an unhinged flight of fancy. His fan base gave him the benefit of the doubt, until they couldn't take it anymore. Looking back, his commercial shift feels calculated. Aside from the reliable explanation of money, I can't understand what would motivate him to sell out so shamelessly. With Armin, I can at least construct a somewhat believable chain of events and market influences that carried him away into boggy nonsense. I can't build any such excuse for Paul.

quote:

Originally posted by Push2005 Armin has always been about "play it safe" and never pushed boundaries; in contrast to Pvd, Tiesto & Ferry; both production and dj-wise.

that's what i thought.

pvd may play alot of cheesy vocal bollocks these days but his sets still remain interesting & unpredictable; he's seldom tied down by any one style & usually takes the flow in all kinds of different directions (admittedly sometimes for the worse, but he never gets stuck in a bad rut)

while ferry DOES play it safe (even more so than armin) he's technically the most solid & consistent out of the lot; his sets always flow effortlessly & every tune always blends perfectly with the one before it. even if alot of them are average, they get moulded together in a way that makes them danceable

as for tiesto.. while both him and armin are victims of their own success and are too focused on mass appeal, tijs i can still enjoy regardless. his track selection & mixing is altogther much less conformist and he has a much stronger grasp of tension/release/build.. vital when it comes to structuring long sets


take all of those good points and imagine the opposite, add them altogether and well that's pretty much how i feel about armin's sets. if you take away the inane crowdpleasing tactics he's more like a 9-5 worker behind the decks than an actual artist.. no creativity

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Patski I must admit he does do the best jesus pose..

blasphemy.

I like the music Tiesto is playing nowadays. They do play some of the same stuff (Jonas Steur..Fall To Pieces), but if I had a choice nowaday of who to see...I would see Tiesto over Armin. I bought ISOS 6, good CD and not as poorly mixed compared to the last two. I didn't even both with ASOT 2007...I bought 2006 and for that matter 2005 but they were nothing special IMO. Armin hasn't been good since 2004 IMO. Tiesto has gotten better I think.

quote:

Originally posted by RebeL9 I don't really agree. Both Tiesto and Ferry played much more melodic sets back in 99/00. Tiesto went more progressive in 2001 (around the time of his Revolution CD) but until then it was pure epic only. Same goes for Ferry. I didn't compare Armin with PvD but if I would do that then I agree that PvD was also alot diverse back then. His sets at Rosenmontagsrave 2000 is a good example of how he blended styles. But IMO he went very shitty and commercial a few years later. I'm sure it got alot to do with that he also started producing more commercial stuff. And besides. Ferry not playing safe? Just check any recent Ferry set. 50% of his sets are his own tunes. Newer and older. How inspiring...

Yeah sure, in 99/00 they were spinning epic trance. But they weren't spinning solely that stuff in 1995-98 were they. Diversity over their whole career, is far more varied than Armin's, especially after his decision to jump on the big room sound to get more popularity post-2003.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 I like the music Tiesto is playing nowadays. They do play some of the same stuff (Jonas Steur..Fall To Pieces), but if I had a choice nowaday of who to see...I would see Tiesto over Armin. I bought ISOS 6, good CD and not as poorly mixed compared to the last two. I didn't even both with ASOT 2007...I bought 2006 and for that matter 2005 but they were nothing special IMO. Armin hasn't been good since 2004 IMO. Tiesto has gotten better I think.

Tiesto's track selection is all over the place.

By biggest issue is taht on nights these days where his track selection actually his pretty good, the mixing is just WTF? I am not talking about his ability to beat-match. If he wants to, he's fine with it. He just struggles so bad with the phrase-matching just making the transitions sound wonkey and making me cringe.

I think with Armin there are multiple sides of him when it comes to what he plays.

I think there's the side of him where he plays what I think he wants the crowd to play.

Then there's the side of him where he plays what he's really feeling and plays what he wants to play.

Unfortunately, these days I think he usually plays a lot more of what he thinks the crowd wants him to play. And when it comes to those in attendance who don't really know and understand the music (iow, the mass-market attendees) they really eat it up. You know, sets a lot like his radio show.

Armin will sometimes and come out and play a harder, edgier set than you hear on his radio show. And these shows tend to be amazing. Know of instances of seeing him in two cities within a few days and how he plays in one city is just different enough from what you hear on ASOT and in the majority of his live mixes it makes for a different, MUCH better experience.

One time I realized a common thread between these much better nights. And that is the opening act. In each case the opener played really well and it wasn't anything like Armin plays. And nothing like a Markus set (which a lot of openers try to play like before Armin comes on it seems) or similar style to that. Openers were a bit edgier, a bit banging, but not not really much trance. A mix of some house, some techno, and some electro. Some trance elements, but not much. BPMs maybe got into the low 130s, if that. Really saw Armin immediately digging what they were playing and really fed off of it.

I might be crazy, but just what I have noticed. Openers are so crucial (sometimes defining how the night is going to be overall), IMO, and really enjoy it when I see a headliner come in and make an effort to feed off of it (supposing the opener actually does a good job...which, IMO, they don't do often enough!). When the headliner does, it really makes for a better night.

i have to say armin is pretty boring these days. but i wouldnt ever dis him too much. hes a valid character in the trance community. and their has to be a dj in that sort of role of epic mainstream trance, always will be. Im down to listening to his ASOT once ever 10 episodes now.

if it wasnt for him. i probally still be a poor lost soul listening to aussie pop and rock music on local radio. so for that i bless him.

the best thing about him imo thou, would probally be his aura. he has awesome smile, and character, and gives off good energy and vibes to the crowd. and for that i give him 10/10.

if the crowd (mainly nubbies) around u are feeling this and getting off it. then u get high off it too. good atmosphere and crowd are important part of a dj concert.

i only seen him live once, and i was pretty crushed and disapointed for like the first 3 hrs. really enjoyed the last hour or 2. i think i sorta forced myself to enjoy it thou, since i paid 90$. stuck myself right up the front in the good crowd so that helped

Im really feeling SvD's style these days

quote:

Originally posted by MichaelBoogerd! Yeah sure, in 99/00 they were spinning epic trance. But they weren't spinning solely that stuff in 1995-98 were they. Diversity over their whole career, is far more varied than Armin's, especially after his decision to jump on the big room sound to get more popularity post-2003.

I am in no way trying to defend Armin but Armin was also a house dj before he went trance.

quote:

Originally posted by DaveT Tiesto's track selection is all over the place. By biggest issue is taht on nights these days where his track selection actually his pretty good, the mixing is just WTF? I am not talking about his ability to beat-match. If he wants to, he's fine with it. He just struggles so bad with the phrase-matching just making the transitions sound wonkey and making me cringe.

That'd be a good point except the for the fact Tiesto isn't a phrase matching DJ. He can't be "failing" to match phrases, if he wasn't even attempting to mix them in the first place.

The point is valid though, that due to his desire to spin various types of trance and prog/nu-trance style stuff, his mixing is often a bit strange... thats the power of the CDJ. The tracks no longer need to phyiscally sit well together in order to beatmatch them and get some sort of mix between them.

I think Tiesto has become (and is) more about the track selection than he his about spot on mixing. I think Armin has been (esp with the harmonic mixing and Ableton Live) a perfectionist at making sure transitions are smooth, and that is fine, but that might mean playing the same sequence of tracks or being so smooth that it feels too mechanical. Lately though, I think Armin has gotten away from that, I don't think his mixnig is spot on as it used to be. I think I just prefer what Tiesto plays, especially a lot of the tracks on ISOS6. A good mix to me of progressive, house and trance...and not just "trance, trance, trance".

quote:

Originally posted by DaveT Tiesto's track selection is all over the place. By biggest issue is taht on nights these days where his track selection actually his pretty good, the mixing is just WTF? I am not talking about his ability to beat-match. If he wants to, he's fine with it. He just struggles so bad with the phrase-matching just making the transitions sound wonkey and making me cringe.

i think the slightly erratic feel to his timing is what makes him a far more interesting dj than armin. sometimes it sounds awkward but other times it can sound amazing and make the transition feel alot more vibrant. i'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing at times like that too, he's even defended it in interviews i seem to remember

armin is a smooth mixer (most of the time) who sticks rigidly to the phrases & harmonics, but can't pull that technique off as well as ferry; he manages to sap the energy out of the tunes by not introducing them with enough impact, and he'll happily disrupt the flow of a set just to play a big tune & wake the crowd up. hopefully if/when he gets to #1 he'll start realising he can play what the hell he likes and still be worshipped for it..

I imagined this thread to just turn into pointless & uninformed Armin-bashing, I'm pleasantly surprised by the content, some excellent points made.

Generally I agree with the initial comment by Rebel9,pretty much summed it all up

quote:

Originally posted by RJT They already do, and those who choose to post tend to last about a week before throwing a tantrum and running off.

I only know of Matt Darey, Flemming, Gareth Emery? JOC, Luke Terry, G&D... do any of the big name DJs ever come on here? ie, the van Dyks, the Tiestos and the Armins?

quote:

Originally posted by Cobalt Paul van Dyk's decline coincided with the release of Reflections. Now I don't want to play the cynic, but in retrospect the change seems deliberate. Back then, everyone though it was a momentary career misstep, or an unhinged flight of fancy. His fan base gave him the benefit of the doubt, until they couldn't take it anymore. Looking back, his commercial shift feels calculated.

I was really interested in what you wrote; can you elaborate on this? Are you saying he was copying Tjis / trying to?

quote:

Originally posted by Cobalt Aside from the reliable explanation of money, I can't understand what would motivate him to sell out so shamelessly. With Armin, I can at least construct a somewhat believable chain of events and market influences that carried him away into boggy nonsense. I can't build any such excuse for Paul.

Was it purely for money that Matthias 'sold out'? How has he 'sold out'? I'm confused too about the Armin bit; how can you 'excuse him'?

I'm always cautious when I criticise DJs. For a start, I can't DJ, so I marvel at what they do. I'm musically trained, but not from DJ perspective. To me, it all seems a case of beat-matching, but that's how much I know!

Second, the main reason why I don't like criticising is I think; people change. In '99/'00, it was good. Very good. Heck, even Dave Pearce played some quality trance! But things move on. Would you want to be stuck in the same job in a packing room for the rest of your life because your manager thought it was good, or your customers thought you packed those boxes really well every day? I guess that 7 years ago, all these top names wanted to take a different direction, and why not? I expect they think they're in a better position now than they were then. Although, having said that, I would love to know if they actually listen to constructive criticism, and if they take it on board, and who from.

Chicane has gone the same route. He'll never top FFTMC or BTS so why continue in that style. Those albums were perfect for that time, then. The moment has passed, so although ETA and Somersault were a massive let down to some, is it not good that he at least tried something different? I often think they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they stay in the same genre, they'll get accused of being samey, if they take another route, they'll get accused of going commericialised etc.

In your eyes (and this is for everyone reading this thread) Is it ever possible to produce quality music and not be "commercialised". The way I've seen it in my 3 - 4 years on TA so far, if you sell more records than to a few thousand clique, you're commercial, and commercial = rubbish.

Maybe we'll be in for another '99/'00 and we just don't know it yet?

PS If anyone has a link to PvD's set at Cafe Mambo in '99 (I think), please let me know!!!!

Armin is one of the trance demi-Gods.

quote:

Originally posted by MichaelBoogerd! That'd be a good point except the for the fact Tiesto isn't a phrase matching DJ. He can't be "failing" to match phrases, if he wasn't even attempting to mix them in the first place.

Do you realize how senseless your statement was? Don't be such a fanboy, please. If he isn't even "trying to match phrases" as you claim, don't you think that's just lazy? No, it's not imaginative, creative or innovative. If I paid to go see a DJ who is deemed as "the best DJ in the world for 3 years in a row" and didn't even bother to phrase-match, I'd feel insulted and pissed. How some people fail to acknowledge this and defend it is just beyond me.

Anyways, getting back on the AvB subject...I remember he used to be really good. I really enjoyed his early comps, as they were somewhat different to what other "Trance" DJs were releasing at the time. I was really delighted by his first series (001: A State of Trance, 002: Basic Instinct, 003: In Motion, 004: Transparance), specially by "Transparance". "Universal Religion: Chapter One" was brilliant as well in my opinion. You could really see that he actually put a lot of work into his compilations, selecting awesome tracks, blending several styles, and spot-on mixing. Shame the same cannot be said for everything he has released from his "ASOT 2005" compilation, onwards. It's like apples and oranges now. All that hard work and inspiration has been replaced by bland mixing, and even worse track selection in what can only be described as an obsession to conquer the #1 spot on the DJ Mag poll. With the announcement of the release of his latest compilation: "Universal Religion: Chapter Three", I thought this was a way for him to get back at his old sound. A simple glance at the tracklist proved me dead wrong. I even dared to listen to it, hoping to at least be surprised by other aspects of the mix...all in vain. I think this is by far the worst mixing I've ever heard. I wrote a transition-by-transition breakdown here .

quote:

Originally posted by woscar99 Don't be such a fanboy, please.

Fanboy? meh. I'm just being a realist. Don't be such a hater and whine on about Tiesto regarding the scientifics of DJing, when the guy you're slating, doesn't give one shit about phrases or synching or whatever you want to describe it as.

I'd prefer to see a DJ who occassionally slips a beat, but DJs on "instinct" what to play next, as opposed to some dude with a calculator and a set of freaking harmonically ordered CD bags, attempting to make the perfect audial tonic.

If tiesto was trying to phrase match & harmonically mix, then by all means he is failing like a turd; but as he's just selecting tracks and spinning by instinct what the crowd might want next... I'm not going to call him out on that..

Armin has great control of his mixing, but what he lacks is everything Tiesto has above. The "Feel" to DJ successfully from instinct, not from practice. I guess it just boils down to natural talent, i think Ishkur covered that re: BT already

quote:

Originally posted by MichaelBoogerd! If tiesto was trying to phrase match & harmonically mix, then by all means he is failing like a turd; but as he's just selecting tracks and spinning by instinct what the crowd might want next... I'm not going to call him out on that..

Tiesto doesn't phrase match? Well, what half technically adept DJ doesn't do phrase matching?

Haven't heard recent Tiesto sets, but did he fix his trainwreck problem yet?

quote:

Originally posted by MichaelBoogerd! Fanboy? meh. I'm just being a realist. Don't be such a hater and whine on about Tiesto regarding the scientifics of DJing, when the guy you're slating, doesn't give one shit about phrases or synching or whatever you want to describe it as. I'd prefer to see a DJ who occassionally slips a beat, but DJs on "instinct" what to play next, as opposed to some dude with a calculator and a set of freaking harmonically ordered CD bags, attempting to make the perfect audial tonic. If tiesto was trying to phrase match & harmonically mix, then by all means he is failing like a turd; but as he's just selecting tracks and spinning by instinct what the crowd might want next... I'm not going to call him out on that.. Armin has great control of his mixing, but what he lacks is everything Tiesto has above. The "Feel" to DJ successfully from instinct, not from practice. I guess it just boils down to natural talent, i think Ishkur covered that re: BT already

You have undeniable talent for taking the most embarassing features of your idol and turning them into something positive.

Well played, mate

back on topic

thank god, the fans finally put him out his misery...

saying tiesto can't phrasematch for shit is a gross exaggeration. he does it fine 95% of the time, but the times where they aren't rigidly matched don't always sound shit because of it

btw, i'm not defending the way he mixes because i like him.. i like him because of the way he mixes

Other reasons I hope Armin fucking finally wins the DJ Mag Poll:

-We won't have to put up with the annual whining and complaining of his fanbase for not winning

-Nor their incessant 'promoting' to lure more kids into voting for him

-Having achieved their life long dream of seeing Armin's name at the top of the poll, they will promptly commit mass suicide as they know nothing will ever top that triumphant moment in their lives again

-Or they'll finally move on and actually discover more music besides Armin's playlist ...where they'll come to the horrible realization they've wasted these last five years

-Upon winning the Most Popular vote, Armin will now see it fit to prove to the critical world he actually is musically talented and begin producing minimal tech house to win their approval, simultaneously alienating all the fans he gain to win the Popular vote. Mass hilarity ensues in the following years.

-With all the trancecrackers having finally gotten all their heroes the 'numbah one' position in the poll, they'll loose interest in it, and more knowledgeable votes will take over.

-Or the same three twats will remain in the top forever after, dragging DJ Mag's credibility further into the mud

quote:

Originally posted by isoterra i like him because of the way he mixes

hey me too

quote:

Originally posted by Sykonee Other reasons I hope Armin fucking finally wins the DJ Mag Poll:

Also, he will finally have fulfilled his dream of becoming Tiesto

quote:

Originally posted by palm check out this mix by sasha at 11min, thats armin - virgo (some GU-dudes remix, dont remember who). url: http://www.sendspace.com/file/10fgng this is btw an awesome examply of "mix-in-key" set and still one of my references how trance-sets should really be. i wish i had the whole set too so if someone has it please PM me. each fucking sound in this set is better than what the hell is going on today.

i think that's the first time i've ever heard sasha trainwreck

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