TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Canada - Toronto & Southern Ont.
-- Only in Canada
Pages (4): « 1 2 [3] 4 »

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree i think i just threw up in my mouth a little

I think you just threw up in MY mouth a little...

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. DAS I think you just threw up in MY mouth a little...

creepy!

quote:

Originally posted by malek MarkT you also forget that his base in Alberta pays only one tax and its the GST, so for them over there its a big deal to lower it from 7 to 5. (thats over 25% in GST reduction). The alternative is that people vote for the Liberals, and with Mr. Clown Dion at its head, its not going to happen, or worse with Trudeau jr.

true...but that's completely irrelevant from a real money standpoint.

you're just playing with words by saying the GST cuts represent a 25% reduction in taxes for Albertans.

a 1% GST cut is the same, no matter what your combined tax rate is...Albertans aren't saving any more or any less moeny than the rest of the country. 1% is 1%...whether you currently pay 5%, 15% or 50% in GST/PST.

(but you're right that it sounds far more impressive to the average person who doesn't really think of how much money they are ACTUALLY saving).

If a guy in Alberta buys a car for 30k (not far fetched), well he'll keep 600$ in his pocket. Pay 1500$ instead of 2100$ in GST (thats over 25%). Harper will do anything to please Alberta because its his home base and the reason why he's in power.

That 1% of GST is worth 5 billions or so a year, its coming from somewhere isn't it? People's pockets and corporations.

At the end of the day, everyone is paying less taxes.

quote:

Originally posted by malek Harper will do anything to please Alberta because its his home base and the reason why he's in power.

are you serious?

do you know how many seats alberta has in the house of commons?

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree are you serious? do you know how many seats alberta has in the house of commons?

yes and they'll get more seats thanks to the CPC. The CPC had a 21 seats majority, Alberta has 28 seats.

quote:

Originally posted by malek If a guy in Alberta buys a car for 30k (not far fetched), well he'll keep 600$ in his pocket. Pay 1500$ instead of 2100$ in GST (thats over 25%). Harper will do anything to please Alberta because its his home base and the reason why he's in power. That 1% of GST is worth 5 billions or so a year, its coming from somewhere isn't it? People's pockets and corporations. At the end of the day, everyone is paying less taxes.

I think everyone is missing mark's point that average Canadains don't gain a lot from this tax break. Even if you add a new car, not normally purchased less than every 5 years, to the 300$ that he calculated before, an average family only saves about 420$/year. Amounts to about 1 more trip to McDonalds every weak. If tax cuts are what you want, then look at the big picture and it's easy to see that income tax cuts provide a much more balanced way of distributing the money, and not just to those who are able and do spend a lot of money.

quote:

Originally posted by miketg23 I think everyone is missing mark's point that average Canadains don't gain a lot from this tax break. Even if you add a new car, not normally purchased less than every 5 years, to the 300$ that he calculated before, an average family only saves about 420$/year. Amounts to about 1 more trip to McDonalds every weak. If tax cuts are what you want, then look at the big picture and it's easy to see that income tax cuts provide a much more balanced way of distributing the money, and not just to those who are able and do spend a lot of money.

there's a tax break from 15.5% to 15% on the lower bracket, and also the minumum not taxable amount (sp?) has been brought up.

Everyone will pay less income taxes in 2008.

p.s. I do get his point, there's no arguing there, but now that he lowered the GST, he is done with that promise and can focus on other tax reductions.

quote:

Originally posted by malek yes and they'll get more seats thanks to the CPC. The CPC had a 21 seats majority, Alberta has 28 seats.

and if you compare Alberta's seats to Ontario and Quebec...

Just ask good ol' Trudeau how much Alberta matters in Canadian politics, compared to winning seats in Ontario and Quebec. NEP anyone?

Wow, only in canada do we debate and COMPLAIN about LOWER taxes!!

first the 15% tax is paid on AFTER TAX INCOME. That means we paid 15% on top of the income tax we pay. a 2% reduction in this tax is a welcome change as it translates into an even greater percentage on overall net income.

Second, Tourism was mentioned as well as cross border shopping. One of the first things americans say to me when they find out im canadian is "whats with the 15% sales tax? Its so expensive up there!" I think 13% will make it a bit more attractive to american consumers. Also 2% lower GST makes it 2% more attractive to buy in Canada instead of the US.

Third, The poor already get a GST REBATE which is not affected by this rate change. So in reality, poor people win twice on this cut as they still get the same rebate AND the GST cut. Not to mention half a percent off of income taxes as well as an increase in the personal exemption!

Fourth, Doesnt it make sense that if you buy more you spend more in tax? Well then why not allow EVERYONE to save when they buy? BTW the rich wont benefit more because as a % of income the pay of is much smaller than that of a lower income person. People forget that the rich tend to have businesses that often times have revenue reversed GST payouts. Not to mention that $200-$400 (on 2%) savings for a poor person means a lot more in terms of survival than $800-1200 for a rich guy. So the poor really do benefit from the tax cut. You can buy an awful lot more canned baby food for $200-400 bucks cant you?

Are there better ways to cut taxes? Maybe or maybe not. The point is THEY ARE CUTTING TAXES and those who are against this would probably also be the first ones bitching if harper RAISED the GST.

And im sure they also still hate Mulroney for bringing it in in the first place (I know i do!!)

Re: Re: Re: Only in Canada

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree lol. so, instead of voluntarily giving money to charity, you support the governmment from forcibly taking money from people?

+1

guys get this straight once and for all, any tax break will benefit more those who pay more taxes.

I don't understand why people are so shocked about that everytime there's a tax break!

quote:

Originally posted by 7-4-7 this is six and 1/2 dozen of the other.

LOL!!

The expression is:

"six to one, 1/2 dozen to the other"


that made me smile tonite

quote:

Originally posted by Spam Politicians who keep their word? I'm cool with that.

Aye. Exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Are there better ways to cut taxes? Maybe or maybe not. The point is THEY ARE CUTTING TAXES and those who are against this would probably also be the first ones bitching if harper RAISED the GST.

quote:

Originally posted by malek guys get this straight once and for all, any tax break will benefit more those who pay more taxes. I don't understand why people are so shocked about that everytime there's a tax break!

NO! This statement is just incorrect. Since you have little understanding of the tax system, I will lay it out for you.
Income tax cuts in all but the highest tax bracket will have a maximum amount. For example: A cut of 1% in the second tax bracket would give a break of up to 370$/year. This is because this bracket only covers earnings between 37 and 74k. 1% of 37k=370. The GST cut on the other hand has an unlimited potential of gain depending on how much you can spend. Got 1 mil to spend this year? Then you stand to save 10k where I will probably save a couple hundred bucks. This is why people, many of whom are probably "middle class", oppose this cut, and the government which implemented it.

quote:

Originally posted by miketg23 Since you have little understanding of the tax system, I will lay it out for you.

are you for real

you just don't get it.

debating the finer points of our income tax system is realy not the point here.

1. the majority of Canadians are NOT going to realize significant savings with the GST cut.

2. the billions in "lost" GST revenue (that's ~$12 billion with both cuts) could have been better spent paying down the national debt and addressing our decaying infrastructure, to name just two worthwhile options.

how about investing those billions in R&D with regard to the inevitable energy issues relating to oil supply and prices or electricity costs? or paying down the debt so that there is less to service and the country enjoys the compounded savings in future years? what about our decaying roads, water systems, transit, etc?

I bet the GST cuts = a lot of votes though.

people eat this shit up because they don't see a direct, personal benefit to themselves with any of the other options. instead they prefer to "pay less taxes" without even taking a few minutes to calculate exactly what this cut means...which isn't much.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT debating the finer points of our income tax system is realy not the point here. 1. the majority of Canadians are NOT going to realize significant savings with the GST cut. 2. the billions in "lost" GST revenue (that's ~$12 billion with both cuts) could have been better spent paying down the national debt and addressing our decaying infrastructure, to name just two worthwhile options. how about investing those billions in R&D with regard to the inevitable energy issues relating to oil supply and prices or electricity costs? or paying down the debt so that there is less to service and the country enjoys the compounded savings in future years? what about our decaying roads, water systems, transit, etc? I bet the GST cuts = a lot of votes though. people eat this shit up because they don't see a direct, personal benefit to themselves with any of the other options. instead they prefer to "pay less taxes" without even taking a few minutes to calculate exactly what this cut means...which isn't much.

I only agree with you about the infrastructures as our debt is not an issue at this moment.

About the "lost" money, its far from being lost. That 12 billion will be left in the economy to be spent by citizens and corporations which will return to the govt some way or the other be it by income taxes on salaries or consumption taxes... nothing is lost Mark.

quote:

Originally posted by malek are you for real you just don't get it.

Beyond the rolling of your eyes and saying I just don't get it, what is your counter point?

quote:

Originally posted by malek I only agree with you about the infrastructures as our debt is not an issue at this moment. About the "lost" money, its far from being lost. That 12 billion will be left in the economy to be spent by citizens and corporations which will return to the govt some way or the other be it by income taxes on salaries or consumption taxes... nothing is lost Mark.

you're right...it's not entirely "lost" as the money goes back into the economy in one form or another, whether through spending, savings, etc.

but how is the debt not an issue "at the moment"? the % of gov't revenue spent just *servicing* the national debt is staggering:

http://www.fin.gc.ca/taxdollar/text...pamphlet_e.html

"The largest single federal spending item in 2004�05 was interest payments on Canada�s public debt (that is, money borrowed by the central government over the years, which has not yet been repaid to the lenders). These payments�to institutions and people who hold federal bonds, treasury bills and other forms of the debt�cost $34.1 billion. That�s just over 17 cents of every tax dollar."

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT you're right...it's not entirely "lost" as the money goes back into the economy in one form or another, whether through spending, savings, etc. but how is the debt not an issue "at the moment"? the % of gov't revenue spent just *servicing* the national debt is staggering: http://www.fin.gc.ca/taxdollar/text...pamphlet_e.html "The largest single federal spending item in 2004�05 was interest payments on Canada�s public debt (that is, money borrowed by the central government over the years, which has not yet been repaid to the lenders). These payments�to institutions and people who hold federal bonds, treasury bills and other forms of the debt�cost $34.1 billion. That�s just over 17 cents of every tax dollar."

I don't want to get into details, but lets just say that intrest rates are really low, debt to gdp ratio is much better, the economy is doing really good and finally that most of Canadian debt is held by Canadians... which means that most of that intrests paid is taxed (and returns to the govt). So really, the debt should be the last of our worries when there's a great need for infrastructures everywhere, when universities are in need and when companies should benefit from lower taxations to be competitive on a global scale.

P.S. RND is always a cherry on top, should never be ignored.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT you're right...it's not entirely "lost" as the money goes back into the economy in one form or another, whether through spending, savings, etc. but how is the debt not an issue "at the moment"? the % of gov't revenue spent just *servicing* the national debt is staggering: http://www.fin.gc.ca/taxdollar/text...pamphlet_e.html "The largest single federal spending item in 2004�05 was interest payments on Canada�s public debt (that is, money borrowed by the central government over the years, which has not yet been repaid to the lenders). These payments�to institutions and people who hold federal bonds, treasury bills and other forms of the debt�cost $34.1 billion. That�s just over 17 cents of every tax dollar."

The government has paid off 10 billion dollars in debt in ONLY less than 2 years. Thats an amazing amount of money. AND they still are giving us our tax cuts. So they are paying down the debt AND stimulating the economy.

SOUNDS GOOD TO ME!!

AND who started the debt? why it was every lefty's hero in this land of ours. Trudeau!

As for the infrastructure, im sure mayors like miller etc would see more money if only they had their own fiscal shambles in order first.


So whats the problem with lower taxes again?

it "sounds good" to you? It "sounds good" to a lot of people. others are actually looking at the numbers (instead of what "sounds good") and are trying to show that it's really not that significant at all...and perhaps the money could possibly be put to better use.

maybe instead of saying it "sounds good" you can explain to me why a GST cut is BETTER than further paying down the national debt, or investing in R&D, or investing in our infrastructure or even more aggressive income tax cuts which don't require one to "spend" in order to "save"?

I still have yet to see a decent argument here to that effect. because you think that some debt repayment + GST cuts "sounds good" is a rather poor answer.

and it's irrelevant why the debt came from...it's here. just as it's irrelevant (though ironic) that the Tories are partially repealing the tax they introduced in the first place. (insert remark about the Liberals failing to remove it...as if that excuses Mulroney from introducing it in the first place).

the CPC has been in power for less than one year, so referring to debt reduction before then is to compliment the Liberals (and the Liberals were paying off more per year than the current CPC gov't has or intends to do, AFAI can tell from previous figures).

an interesting, though dated (2002), read:

http://www.ppforum.ca/common/assets...ederal_debt.pdf

quote:

"One of the least noticed actions of the current federal government during the past five years has been its decision to use some of the surplus revenue to pay down the national debt. In fact, over the last five years, the federal government has reduced the national debt by $46.7 billion from a high of over $580 billion to the current level of approximately $536 billion. (See Table 1.) This is a significant action that deserves more public scrutiny and debate. Paying down debt is a relatively invisible policy decision, and identifiable winners and loser are hard to find. As a result, the media has shown little interest - there was almost no media coverage of the federal government's debt management policies that John Manley described in the economic statement that he delivered in Halifax on October 30th. The cumulative impact of these pay-downs will have dramatic implications for all taxpayers, but particularly for future generations of Canadians. For example, the pay-downs have already resulted in a saving of more than $3 billion a year in debt interest costs. As a consequence, the debt to GDP ratio has dropped from 71% to 49%, which represents the best decline among G-7 countries. Canada's credit rating has been boosted to Triple-A status by Moody's Investor Service and Standard and Poor's.

which is exactly my point. debt reduction provides very tangible benefits...some right away, but especially in the future. yet it's not perceived as a big deal to the average person because they can't perceive a personal and immediate benefit to themselves. GST cut = vote grab.


http://www.budget.gc.ca/2007/bp/bpa2e.html

this provides more up to date info from Flaherty last year. It's good...and admittedly the Tories have historically been fiscally good...but I'd be happy to see them accelerate that schedule to eliminate the annual debt. the more that is paid off sooner, the more money the country saves in interest payments...money that can then be "given back" to us in income tax cuts or used for the other initiatives I mentioned.

I just think the GST cut is more vote grab than sensible policy when we have other pressing issues. It allows the CPC to "keep a promise" and it "sounds good" to people who don't care to give fiscal policy more thought beyond what it does for themselves as individuals, no matter how insignificant that GST cut proves to be.

anway...I'm repeating myself and don't really care to debate it further. I simply see better options for that money. If people choose to think that a combined 2% GST cut is the way to go...good for them, I guess.

I just wish that people would put more thought into the matter by *at least* taking the time to figure out what those cuts *really* mean for them and the country as a whole. Then consider what the alternatives are...then form an opinion.

The CPC came to power 2 years ago this month...

lol, oops...brain fart

point still stands...it's been more aggressively paid down in the past, resulting in substantial interest savings.

just as there is a compounding interest effect over time with investment, so too there is in interest savings when paying down principal more quickly.

shifting that 12 billion in GST revenue against the debt would result in substantial interest savings now and even moreso over time.

problem...this administration (or any other) won't be around to reap the benefits, so it's easier/more attractive to provide a very visible GST tax cut in an attempt to hold onto power.

it's an unfortunate aspect of politics. while shorter terms safeguard against complacency and ensure accountability, long term planning that might be a greater benefit the country takes a back seat to a short term agenda of immediate, visible actions (like a GST cut). no one is guaranteed to remain in power long enough for long-term planning to be attractive. I'm sure that's part of why no one gives a shit about spending a lot of money on the environment, R&D, etc...because they won't be around to reap the political rewards.

I don't think that means that we, as people who will be around for a long time in this country, shouldn't push for long term planning vs. a short term "sounds good" agenda from all of our politicians.

The funny thing about all this is that if the Tories had done what Mark and most other lefties are asking for, they'd THEN start bitching about how the Tories broke their promise to reduce the GST by 2%. Let's not forget that Mulroney's initial purpose for the GST was to pay down the staggering debt, and as such, was meant to be temporary.

It's done, it's down to 5%, and they haven't promised to lower it any more. I highly doubt that they will. Either way, it's refreshing to see a Government that keeps its word on promises made.

I, like the rest of you, WOULD like to see an increase in spending on infrastructure. But from the start, Harper has said that if Municipalities and Provinces want more money, they should raise their taxes to meet the needs of their constituents, as he's just given said governments a lot of tax-room to do so. Hazel McCallion put it very well when Mississauga's property taxes were hiked this year. "You just got a big tax break, instead of the feds spending it on our infrastructure. That means we have to take some of that tax-break BACK to pay for the things the Feds won't give us money for." I can agree with a tax-hike that's put in those words. It also means that taxes are raised and lowered based on smaller, regional territories (note: provinces/cities that need more money = higher taxes, duh), rather than all the money going to the feds to be dolled out as they please.

The Tories have also repeatedly said that the money for infrastructure is available in some Cities package they introduced, but the request for funds haven't been coming in. I don't know how to research that fund and find out what it's all about, but they make it seem as if the obstacle for the infrastructure money is the paper-work, not that the money isn't actually there to be spent. Hopefully one of you politic nerds will be able to find out what I'm talking about.

Bottom line is, they made a commitment, and kept it. Until they start promising things I'm NOT in favour of, I'm good with a government that keeps the promises they make.

PS: MarkT, you talk a lot about how aggressive the liberals had been paying down the national debt. Do you think the Liberals would have been so capable of paying down the debt if Mulroney hadn't introduced the GST AND signed NAFTA? You hold the Liberals in high regard for a party that got a free ride on the benefits of Mulroney's decisions.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.