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-- War on Scientology
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quote:

Originally posted by RJT I just feel a need to remind you how much I like your posts, PKC. I don't think I've ever both agreed and disagreed with a single person more, and when we disagree I generally walk away thinking "Well fuck, that doesn't sound that dumb an idea..."

lols, right back atcha champ!

NEXT WAVE STARTZ AT 6

quote:

Originally posted by RJT And I hardly see how what they're doing (shutting down websites) is limited to a war of information. Exposing lies is one thing, maliciously attacking an organizations infrastructure is quite the other.

I agree it needs more negative exposure. I can't see it turning into some Peoples Temple style cult. The way it stands against any rational or constructive criticism is a sign it's dodgy for starters. The pathetic way they try and find any dirty information on anyone who has spoke out against them rather the countering the actual argument. All signs it has something sinster to hide.

They oppose psychology and psychiatry so we all know where the nutters are who haven't been taking their medication.

i'd love to infiltrate the church, become one of the top "priests" and then bring the koolaide idea to their attention

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN disagree completely. ANY idea should have to justify itself rationally and those that dont stack up should be met with mockery and attack. this whole idea that ideas should be respected a priori is how stupidity gets a foothold in the first place. if we hadn't given religion a free pass centuries ago perhaps some of today's problems wouldn't be so bad.

Hah, who would've thought this thread would really yield a good discussion

But, yeah, I disagree with you, pkc. Although it is true that ideas should be disputed in case they don't meet certain criteria, if you simply fight "irrationality" with mockery and/or passion, you probably won't show anyone the flaws in their way of thinking - rather, they'll probably stick even more passionately to their beliefs, making it impossible for them to debate. Doesn't sound any more rational than their nuttery.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Hah, who would've thought this thread would really yield a good discussion But, yeah, I disagree with you, pkc. Although it is true that ideas should be disputed in case they don't meet certain criteria, if you simply fight "irrationality" with mockery and/or passion, you probably won't show anyone the flaws in their way of thinking - rather, they'll probably stick even more passionately to their beliefs, making it impossible for them to debate. Doesn't sound any more rational than their nuttery.

to be honest lira, those that are suckered into things like scientology are quite immune from "rational debate", indeed such debate only give their ideas an inflated sense of credibility.

they should be mocked, not to change the notions of the converts, but to prevent their ideas from gaining a foothold with the general populace.

and really, what's not fun about mockery!?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN to be honest lira, those that are suckered into things like scientology are quite immune from "rational debate", indeed such debate only give their ideas an inflated sense of credibility. they should be mocked, not to change the notions of the converts, but to prevent their ideas from gaining a foothold with the general populace. and really, what's not fun about mockery!?

+1
mockery ftw

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN to be honest lira, those that are suckered into things like scientology are quite immune from "rational debate", indeed such debate only give their ideas an inflated sense of credibility. they should be mocked, not to change the notions of the converts, but to prevent their ideas from gaining a foothold with the general populace.

By shutting websites down?

quote:

Originally posted by Lira By shutting websites down?

what's good for the goose...

Scientology,that can't be the name of a religion... It's just for some wealthy people that have too much free time,fame and money. I don't have none of those,and I am not a scientologist. Those people are crazy and have no sense for religion and faith.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN what's good for the goose...

How's that good for geese, ganders or anyone at all?

Besides, I think all sites scientologists "took down", they did by taking legal action.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira How's that good for geese, ganders or anyone at all? Besides, I think all sites scientologists "took down", they did by taking legal action.

the "church" uses whatever powers it has to quell ANY dissent or criticism of its activities. the "church" possesses far more power than your average citizen, so if this is the way average joe fights back, then so be it. im about as concerned for scientology's right to free speech as i am the white supremacist movement.

those organisations that go out of their way to stifle the free expression of others deserve it not for themselves. they have brought this upon themselves, i say "stiff shit".

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN those organisations that go out of their way to stifle the free expression of others deserve it not for themselves. they have brought this upon themselves, i say "stiff shit".

+1

I wonder how the IRL raids are going to turn out...

Scientology is just as valid a religion as any of the others.

Scientology is just as valid a religion as any of the others.






Scientology is just as valid a religion as any of the others.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN the "church" uses whatever powers it has to quell ANY dissent or criticism of its activities. the "church" possesses far more power than your average citizen, so if this is the way average joe fights back, then so be it. im about as concerned for scientology's right to free speech as i am the white supremacist movement. those organisations that go out of their way to stifle the free expression of others deserve it not for themselves. they have brought this upon themselves, i say "stiff shit".

Attempting to spread your religion in the midst of an utter Xtian hegemony takes drastic measures. How's this - once people start saying "Hubbard Bless You" each and every time somebody sneezes out of nothing but expected social courtesy, the playing field will be flat. Until then, no side is right, ever.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Scientology is just as valid a religion as any of the others. Scientology is just as valid a religion as any of the others. Scientology is just as valid a religion as any of the others.

no its not. i can go to any church i want and "sit in" if i so choose. i dont have to pay for the pleasure of being there. the other churches are also not secretive when it comes to their beliefs/traditions/services etc.

the other churches also dont use retarded devices to tell you that you're sick or spiritually wanting (or whatever that fucking device is meant to do).

while they might be different sides to the same coin, i still reckon theyre worse.

quote:

Attempting to spread your religion in the midst of an utter Xtian hegemony takes drastic measures. How's this - once people start saying "Hubbard Bless You" each and every time somebody sneezes out of nothing but expected social courtesy, the playing field will be flat. Until then, no side is right, ever.

haha.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN no its not. i can go to any church i want and "sit in" if i so choose. i dont have to pay for the pleasure of being there. the other churches are also not secretive when it comes to their beliefs/traditions/services etc. the other churches also dont use retarded devices to tell you that you're sick or spiritually wanting (or whatever that fucking device is meant to do). while they might be different sides to the same coin, i still reckon theyre worse.

Funny, the very concept of an open and inviting social order seems one with nothing to hide, right? Is that the appeal? I just don't see how you can justify their relative validity over Scientology, given that thousands of years worth of [non]development have lead to an utter indoctrination of our social system and infiltration of value system, as well as provided a great deal of writings to control what could very well be a mass form of misdirection. I'm not saying the Xtian church is hiding something. I'm merely asking how you would know that they are not but Scientology is - especially given that almost all pertaining information on Scientology available outside of the church, itself, is controlled by an Xtian media in an Xtian country under an Xtian spell of feigned sanctimony.

Better? Worse? Come now, I was saying that neither is better than the other because they are all part of the same pile.

I expected more from you, pkc. Favouring Christianity and open belief systems. tsk tsk.

It would be splendid if scientology and anon just destroyed each other.

Anon is you. Anon is me.

Does nobody actually know this?

Theres a church near by, i should check it out.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Funny, the very concept of an open and inviting social order seems one with nothing to hide, right? Is that the appeal? I just don't see how you can justify their relative validity over Scientology, given that thousands of years worth of [non]development have lead to an utter indoctrination of our social system and infiltration of value system, as well as provided a great deal of writings to control what could very well be a mass form of misdirection.

very true. but i find the manner in which they behave to be fundamentally different (assuming we're talking about one of the "good" churches that dont protest at funerals or bomb mosques).

they are far more transparent, and ask for far less in return. what kind of "religion" (who do the scientologists worship btw?) demands you to pay more money for the chance to "advance" within the "church"?

i suppose the difference for me, is that i still acknowledge the possibility (however unlikely) that there is some kind of deity that created the universe. i do not, for a second, entertain the possibility of anything scientology has to offer.

in other words, yes, scientology is the same as any other church, just worse.

quote:

I'm not saying the Xtian church is hiding something. I'm merely asking how you would know that they are not but Scientology is - especially given that almost all pertaining information on Scientology available outside of the church, itself, is controlled by an Xtian media in an Xtian country under an Xtian spell of feigned sanctimony.

because of how they conduct themselves. i can go to any mass i want and be welcomed by the church. i cannot, without bringing along bags of cash, find out much about scientology. that, in and of itself, sets them apart.

quote:

Better? Worse? Come now, I was saying that neither is better than the other because they are all part of the same pile. I expected more from you, pkc. Favouring Christianity and open belief systems. tsk tsk.

to me they ARE worse. same as militant islam is worse than pacifist buddhism. the structure of the belief system might be one and the same, but a religion (to me) is far more about how it affects the public sphere than just the nonsense that they believe. and a religion as secretive and insanely litigious as scientology obviously has something to hide.

I hope they get rid of Scientology on the basis that if anyone's going to be ripping off dog-stupid rich people, it should be me and I don't want the competition doing it.

(Besides, they'll feel like a 'real' religion after being vilified, hiding in a sewer to go to church and occasion thrown to a large kitten for its dinner.. it'll be good for them, builds character.)

�Dear 'Church' of Scientology leadership, by now you have certainly become aware of us and our actions.
We have commenced our assault upon your institution and would like to take this moment to enlighten you.
We are Anonymous, you might know think of us as merely a hacker group, but we are much more. We are the
protectors of knowledge, we are the 'internet hate machine'. We stand for great justice, we stand for truth. We
embody the most fundamental principles of freedom: the right to ask questions, the right to knowledge and
the right to dissent. Your church caught our eye a long time ago, with your misinformation, your
brainwashing and inability to face your critics. We have waited long to act but have finally chosen the time,
not because this time is special but because it amused us the most.
The average scientologist: do not fear Anonymous. Do not hate us. We are on your side, we are on the side of
truth. We are not here to persecute you, we are here for your liberation. Over the years, it is unlikely you
could have missed the information about your church which has flooded the internet. The secrect documents,
the reports of wrong doing and the tales of abuse and brainwashing. Has the constant cover up of these acts
by your church ever made you sit and think � What if I am in the wrong? After hearing your church
leadership's censorship attempts and damage control, have you ever followed up yourself to find out the
truth behind the information? Behind all the allegations? Have you ever, in your religion which prides itself
on providing answers, ever asked a question about its validity? Whenever in history access to knowledge has
been removed, Anonymous has provided it. Had there never been dissent from the collective concience of
everybody and of nobody at the same time would still be thinking the sun orbited the earth. Why have you,
the average scientologist, never asked the obvious questions for the betterment of your whole community?
Why do you fear to find out the truth? Anonymous does not fear, we wish to aid you in your struggle for the
ultimate truth about your own institution, to expose it for its lies.
We do not wish for you to live in fear of your leaders. Fearing they'll run off with 200million of your money
in the way of LRH, fearing you'll face the fate of many of those who have tried to leave or tried to destroy
your institution from the inside. Why do you think you church has covered up and never talked to its
members about some cases which truly made its methods public? Cases like Lisa McPherson, Josephus A.
Havenith and the famour Jeremy Perkins? The right questions are not being asked � but now, with the help
of Anonymous is the time to ask those questions.
Anonymous respects the efforts of critics such as Jeff Jacobsen and scientology's other enemies, big and
small. However, recognize that this is the 21st century. Your methods are admirable and have achieved much
and you deserve all the praise anon can deliver, but our beliefs in how this must be handled differ.
Anonymous feels that sometimes, to get the attention of someone you must punch them in the face. Fools are
the media who think the first parts of our attack were more than attention grabbers. Our mission is to
eradicate scientology, for them to revoke their ways and to disband. Do you honestly think us so naive we
believe a mere flood of DDoS attacks would do anything more than stir the hornets nest? No. Our true
means of destroying the CoS are beyond that. Information is our weapon. We want to make sure that there is
no doubt in the mind of any of the followers of the CoS what their church hides from them, what their church
does and what their church really stands for.
CoS members, we bid you ask yourselves this question:
Has the Church of Scientology really provided you with answers, or merely skewed the question?
We are Anonymous
We are legion
We do not forgive
We do not forget�

http://digg.com/world_news/Open_letter_from_Anonymous_to_scientologists

digg it

see, i don't agree with messing with people's websites


but to make factual information highly public is only a good thing IMO, when it concerns a group of people that hurts others.


whether it's factual is another matter

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