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| Originally posted by SkooB_E I've noticed many times that people make the misstake in thinking that Kosovo was a country on it's own and that the serbs "stole" it from the albanians. |
the situation is pretty complicated... its actually about choosing the "less evil" option. My point is, if Kosovo remained Serbian territory, than the albainians would be pretty influential and would eventually have a huge voting potential (and thus could obstruct the functioning of the whole country in every way they please), and I'm sure they wouldnt just back up from their calls for independence.... The thing will continue to be a pain in the ass... So Kosovo will eventually be independent, either way...
Being from Serbia and being bombarded by all the arguments 24/7, I must sadly conclude that Kosovo has been lost long before this declaration and that it's probably best to move on... the problem will surely continue to exist, and probably cause some more in other similar corners of the world.
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| Originally posted by SkooB_E I'm curious to see how this will play out when albanians in Macedonia and Montenegro start talking about independence. |
and therein lies one of the biggest problems with that whole region.
and you dont need to look any further than the kosovo case ... serbs were there 600 years ago and they think they are entitled to the land based on past history which has absolutely nothing to do with present day reality.
same goes for croatians who point to older maps which include b+h and vojvodina.
or older hungarian maps which include parts of croatia, serbia and romania.
or bulgarian maps which include macedonia or parts of romania.
and I can go on ... and on ... and on.
as long as there are retards out there basing their nationalistic ideals and views on centuries old history (and as long as these "historical views" overlap and do not correspond with the views of everyone else in the region) there will be problems. biggest problem is that everyone has their own definition of "history" and they all want to relive their own nations "glory days".
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| Originally posted by Special K and therein lies one of the biggest problems with that whole region. and you dont need to look any further than the kosovo case ... serbs were there 600 years ago and they think they are entitled to the land based on past history which has absolutely nothing to do with present day reality. same goes for croatians who point to older maps which include b+h and vojvodina. or older hungarian maps which include parts of croatia, serbia and romania. or bulgarian maps which include macedonia or parts of romania. and I can go on ... and on ... and on. as long as there are retards out there basing their nationalistic ideals and views on centuries old history (and as long as these "historical views" overlap and do not correspond with the views of everyone else in the region) there will be problems. biggest problem is that everyone has their own definition of "history" and they all want to relive their own nations "glory days". |
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| (CNN) -- Angry Serbs torched checkpoints between Serbia and Kosovo and triggered explosions Tuesday to protest Kosovo's independence declaration and international recognition of the breakaway state. Border crossings in northern Kosovo, staffed by U.N. and Kosovo's multiethnic police and customs service, were set on fire by Kosovo Serbs as a symbol of their desire to rejoin Serbia. - U.S. President George W. Bush on Tuesday justified recognizing Kosovo as an independent nation, saying that doing so will bring peace to a region scarred by war. "History will prove this to be a correct move to bring peace to the Balkans," he told reporters in Dar Es Salaam, Tanzania. The recognition "presents an opportunity to move beyond the conflicts of the past and toward a future of freedom and stability and peace," he said. - In the northern Kosovo town of Mitrovica, divided between Serbs and ethnic Albanians, tensions have continued to mount. Overnight, three loud explosions shook Kosovska Mitrovica, one of the blasts damaging several cars near a U.N. building, while two other hand grenade explosions hitting deserted and already destroyed homes belonging to ethnic Albanians who fled this Serb stronghold after the 1999 war. No injuries were reported. - Other nations, such as Spain, Russia and China, have expressed concern that recognition of Kosovo's independence from Serbia would give momentum to secessionist movements in their own countries. Two pro-Russian separatist provinces in Georgia -- South Ossetia and Abkhazia -- were looking to use Kosovo's move to declare their own independence. And the Moldovan separatist region of Trans-Dniester said Tuesday Kosovo's independence showed "a new way of resolving conflicts all around the world," AP reported quoting the Olvia state news agency reported. Serbian President Boris Tadic on Monday asked the U.N. Security Council to annul Kosovo's declaration of independence, saying "Imagine you were in my place -- the president of a country, which has been deprived of a territory against its will. "If you cast a blind eye to this illegal act, who guarantees to you that parts of your countries will not declare independence in the same way?" |
My prediction - one way or another, sooner or later, parts of Kosovo (or the whole thing) will be part of Serbia again. Its just a matter of time. Serbia has many excuses that it will employ to achieve this. The most important factor is that Kosovo, the northern part of it (Mekhovia) is very important in Serbian history. I repeat, EU and ethnic Albanians will be sorry for this.
I would like to add that I dont hate Albanians. They're great people, I have couple Albanians friend, and one very cool Albanian guy on this forum (we all who, I think ;-) ) Their people deserve more than just the Serbian oppression of the 1980s and 1990s. I only have a political problem with Albanians living in and around Kosovo and Macedonia. Albanians living in Albania are minding their own business, and not causing too much chaos in these ethnic problems (I think). But ethnic Kosovan Albanians (and Macedo-Albanians) dont deserve independence, they've done nothing to deserve it, and quite the opposite, they pursued the program of pushing out other ethnic groups, destroying national treasures and so on that I went over already.
I think that Albanians in Kosovo and Macedonia have dug themselves a dangerous position which their later generations will pay the price for. I believed for a long time that Albanians will be able to come to a meaningful and positive compromise to build a great community and respect their neighbours of other ethnicities. However, it became clear that I was wrong.
Albanians have insulted and alienated Serbs and Macedonians alike. Look at the Albanians in Macedonia, for example. They, at least the majority of them, has little respect for the country they live in. Macedonians dont push them out, they allow them on equal levels, and what do they get for that? Desecrating national values, inciting ethnic hatred, demanding greater independence and so on. They are not even acting like true and respectable Macedonian citizens. Why are they cheering so much for the Kosovo and Albania? If they think its so much better over there they should just move there, instead of continuously living off the prosperous Macedonian system. They should just realize their happiness and move ... I doubt they would though, because they're hypocrites and such ... and they're living in lands (ex. Kosovo) that were not theirs in the first place. The only reason they were able to displace ethnic Serbs and Macedonians over time is through horrible centuries-old Turkish practises. And we all remember the evil Turks (btw, they're stil evil today - they're one of the first to recognize Kosovo).
Anyone has any thoughts in this situation? Just curious ...
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| Originally posted by RapidFire thats a laugh considering macedonia is much older than they are. but according to them everything was albanian territory at one point |
^^^ Here's that cool Albanian dude that I was talking about. Yes, you're right. Serbs do hate Albanians more. Sadly, some better compromise needs to be reached in this Kosovo case ... we all remember how Germany was humiliated in Versailes. This is the new Treaty of Versailes to Serbia, the "independence" of Kosovo.
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium ^^^ Here's that cool Albanian dude that I was talking about. Yes, you're right. Serbs do hate Albanians more. Sadly, some better compromise needs to be reached in this Kosovo case ... we all remember how Germany was humiliated in Versailes. This is the new Treaty of Versailes to Serbia, the "independence" of Kosovo. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium ^^^ Here's that cool Albanian dude that I was talking about. Yes, you're right. Serbs do hate Albanians more. Sadly, some better compromise needs to be reached in this Kosovo case ... we all remember how Germany was humiliated in Versailes. This is the new Treaty of Versailes to Serbia, the "independence" of Kosovo. |
It would be in Serbia's interest to let Kosovo go. This is just the hard reality of Yugoslavia's fragmentation.
Oh, and what do you think would happen in Serbia if our goverment sign on that?
Free your imagenation...
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| Originally posted by EvilTree except serbia is in no position to cause conflict on a huge scale. any sort of military shindig and NATO will shit on Serbia some more. this leaves diplomatic option but Serbia doesn't have much credit in international stage. Russian backing only goes so far and I don't think Russians are willing to shake the world for Serbia once more. |
the worst thing is that this has turned out to be an ethnic conflict, rather than a conflict of interests of the big players that it truly is... as Magnetonium said, Serbs dont forget and as far as I know, as soon as some more radical idiot gets in charge the problems will become deeper and deeper... If we (the Serbs) had been a little wiser, we could actually get some good from this independence... Just hope we dont piss on everyone all over again.
I don't think that actions by kosovo serbs aginst EU, NATO, UN force will stop that easily. It will more likely become a guerilla in the same way as the albanians did.
I'm thinking that a likely scenario is that Kosovo will become devided in the same way Bosnia is today.
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| Originally posted by Branah we could actually get some good from this independence... |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium NATO and USA's superpower prowess arent going to last forever, just look at history ... Slavic people are very enduring ... they will wait, but they won't forget. I promise you, I guarantee you that with the kind of history the Kosovo region has for Serbia, they will never let it go. I read Serbian history - they don't forget easily. In WW1, they were able to liberate on their own their country from Austro-Hungarian occupation. Even though they paid a heavy price for it in casualties. They let go of Croatia, Slovenia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro ... but Kosovo is different. |
Camp Bondsteel, the biggest ?from scratch? foreign US military base since the Vietnam War is near completion in the Yugoslav province of Kosovo. It is located close to vital oil pipelines and energy corridors presently under construction, such as the US sponsored Trans-Balkan oil pipeline. As a result defence contractors?in particular Halliburton Oil subsidiary Brown & Root Services?are making a fortune.
In June 1999, in the immediate aftermath of the bombing of Yugoslavia, US forces seized 1,000 acres of farmland in southeast Kosovo at Uresevic, near the Macedonian border, and began the construction of a camp.
Camp Bondsteel is known as the „grand dame” in a network of US bases running both sides of the border between Kosovo and Macedonia. In less than three years it has been transformed from an encampment of tents to a self sufficient, high tech base-camp housing nearly 7,000 troops?three quarters of all the US troops stationed in Kosovo.
There are 25 kilometres of roads and over 300 buildings at Camp Bondsteel, surrounded by 14 kilometres of earth and concrete barriers, 84 kilometres of concertina wire and 11 watch towers. It is so big that it has downtown, midtown and uptown districts, retail outlets, 24-hour sports halls, a chapel, library and the best-equipped hospital anywhere in Europe. At present there are 55 Black Hawk and Apache helicopters based at Bondsteel and although it has no aircraft landing strip the location was chosen for its capacity to expand. There are suggestions that it could replace the US airforce base at Aviano in Italy.
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During World War II, the Croatian nation fought side by side with Hitler’s Germany. The Serbian people, like the Jewish people, were slaughtered by the Croatian army and those who survived were placed in concentration camps. After the Fascists were defeated in World War II, Croatia became a republic of Yugoslavia.
In 1990, Franjo Tudjman became President of Croatia. During his reign he fired 300 women journalists and closed down any newspapers and television stations that offended him. His rule gave power to a small oligarchy. Yet despite his ultra-nationalism and his brutal purge of ethnic Serbs from Croatia, the US, under President Bill Clinton and his Balkan adviser, Richard Holbrook, supported Tudjman’s regime.
In early August 1995, the Croatian Army received support from the Pentagon and the CIA in planning and carrying out the attack on Croatia’s Krajina region and the expulsion of its 250,000 ethnic Serbs. Croatian soldiers had been trained at Fort Irwin, California, and additional training assistance came from a private company of mercenaries, the American Military Professional Resources Incorporated (MPRI). The end result was US participation in an unprecedented act of ethnic cleansing, resulting in a quarter of a million Serbs fleeing from their homes.
In the early 1990’s, tension broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina. In September 1992, in an attempt to prevent Bosnia–Herzegovina from sliding into war, several international peace plans were offered. The most reasonable proposal was the Carrington-Cutileiro plan, under which all districts in this area would be divided up among Bosnia’s Muslims, Serbs and Croats.
Initially, the plan was signed by all three sides, but it was never implemented because Alya Izebegavic, Bosnia’s Muslim leader, withdrew his signature from the agreement after Washington promised to recognize Bosnia as an independent country.
In 1991, Croatia and Slovenia declared their independence from Yugoslavia. They had been encouraged to do so by Germany, which hoped to reestablish traditional German influence in the Balkans. The United States then joined Germany in supporting the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), promising military and political assistance to the ethnic Albanian separatist organization in its quest for an independent Kosovo and, ultimately, a greater Albania.
In 1998, Richard Holbrooke, representing the Clinton Administration, came to Kosovo and appeared in public ceremonies with the KLA, sending a clear signal that the US was backing them. Exploiting the tensions between the KLA and the Serbs in Kosovo, the US used staged ethnic protests and conflicts to justify military intervention. In March 1999, in Rambouille, France, the United States demanded that Yugoslavia accept NATO occupation of Kosovo and the expulsion of all Yugoslav forces. Milosevic refused, and the United States used this as a pretext for war.
On March 27th, 1999, the Clinton administration initiated heavy bombing of Yugoslavia. These attacks on a sovereign country were never approved by the United Nations or the US Congress, violating both international law and the War Powers Act.
The US and NATO had advanced plans to bomb Yugoslavia before 1999, and many European political leaders now believe that the US deliberately used the bombing of Yugoslavia to establish camp Bondsteel in Kosovo.. According to Colonel Robert L. McCure, “Engineering planning for operations in Kosovo began months before the first bomb was dropped.” (1)
In June 1999, in the immediate aftermath of the bombing of Yugoslavia, US forces seized 1,000 acres of farm land in southeast Kosovo at Uresevia, near the Macedonia border, and began the construction of a camp. (2) Brown and Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton, currently provides all of the services to the camp. This same company receives $180 million per year to build military facilities in Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia, and several other countries. Presently, the Bondsteel template is being supported in Georgia and Azerbaijan. According to Chalmers Johnson, author of “America’s Empire of Bases,” the US has about 1000 bases around the world. “Once upon a time, you could trace the spread of imperialism by counting up colonies,” says Johnson. “America’s version of the colony is the military base.” (3) Kosovo is an American colony.
The main purpose for the Bondsteel military base is to provide security for the construction of the Albanian-Macedonian-Bulgarian oil pipeline (AMBO). The AMBO trans-Balkan pipeline will link up with the corridors between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea basin, which holds close to 50 billion barrels of oil.
Hashim Thaci, Kosovo’s current Prime Minister, was formerly the political head of the KLA. The KLA is widely regarded as a terrorist organization and is supported in large part by drug dealing and human trafficking, making particular use of Eastern European women. The US had begun training KLA forces well in advance of the bombing of Yugoslavia.
Presently, Camp Bondsteel houses about 1000 US military troops along with more than 7,000 local Albanian personnel. It is no coincidence that the escalating US presence at Bondsteel was accompanied by increased military activity by the KLA. Since the appearance of this massive base, more Serbs, Roma and Albanians opposed to the KLA have been murdered or driven out of Kosovo.
It is quite clear today that the United States and NATO had advance plans to bomb Yugoslavia long before the ethnic conflicts emerged there. The Kosovo Liberation Army and NATO were determined to foment violence, and no concessions by President Slobodan Milosevic would have prevented the bombing. Building Camp Bondsteel was the US mission, and, by whatever means necessary, it would be built to ensure the completion of a pipeline to the Caspian Sea.
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| Originally posted by EvilTree Are you telling me that Serbs will possibly wait generations to take revenge for Kosovo? What a sad excuse culture that must be, to foster hate among its youth and children, so that one day, maybe. just maybe, take revenge. |
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| Originally posted by EvilTree Are you telling me that Serbs will possibly wait generations to take revenge for Kosovo? What a sad excuse culture that must be, to foster hate among its youth and children, so that one day, maybe. just maybe, take revenge. |
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| Originally posted by Kapedan Northern Greece is also Albanian. It was taken from us in ww 2. |
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| Originally posted by SkooB_E It's not about revenge, it's about taking back what is rightfully ours. It would be revenge if we took back Kosovo AND tried to take Albania just to fuck with them. It may seem to you that it's about hate, but to us it's about remembering our roots and not forgeting where we came from and what shaped us as a people and when you have something stolen from you you don't have to be taught to hate the thief. And this is hardly uncommon and the only place this would happen, Ireland and Israel are just some countries that have this type of behaviour. |
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| Originally posted by EvilTree Historical claims, or cultural claims to homeland have zero value in international diplomacy, unless you have the means to back it up. This is just the reality. |
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| Originally posted by EvilTree New nations and territories have been carved out of so called 'homelands' of many nations, yet those nations learned to live with the consequences. |
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| Originally posted by EvilTree Serbia gambled and lost. |
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