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-- the american forefathers
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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Poor Alexander Hamilton, he's so misunderstood. I took a course on the Federalist/Anti-Federalist debate and it was really fascinating to see just how construed common knowledge about the Constitutional Convention and the philosophies of the Founding Fathers really are.

I was really pretty clueless on it all until just the past year or two (studying loads of contemporary philosophy necessitated reading loads of modern political philosophy as well), but until then I'll admit to having bought into the very biased view of history I'd been taught.

About the only thing I've found since that the majority of the so called "founding fathers" really agreed on was their Deistic faiths - and even then that's basically saying they agreed to disagree with each other as to the specifics of God.

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Originally posted by RJT America's forefathers were brilliant, faultless men, whose example should be followed by the whole of the rest of the world. God and Jesus haven't ever made humans more perfect than them, and anyone who doesn't believe that is obviously an ignorant, communist, invalid pedophile who deserves to be shot out of a cannon into the asshole of Satan (i.e. the Sun). FREEDOM ISN'T FREE, IT'S BOUGHT WITH GUNS!

Funny, but sadly based on a stereotype that exists today.

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Originally posted by Ang ' ela_ie The fact that you're referring to the United States as "America" says a lot about how much you've thought about, well, anything. I don't think that Labrador and Chile necessarily agree with anything you say.

In case you haven't noticed, that's what the rest of the world calls you ; "America".

Very few people actually say "the States" or "United States".

The founding fathers weren't just politicians. They were the first to apply the ideals of John Locke and Adam Smith. They were the first to give the power to the people thru' democracy. This is an example of principle ruling over personal power, as is with many politicians. Think about it....They could have chosen a king, thus, guaranteeing their status in the new country. But they didn't. They gave the power to the people. More than that, they wrote a contract between the people and the state protecting all people from the state. We should never forget what they did, and Americans should all protect what was given to them. No, they weren't just politicians. They were great men...and don't you forget PKC...

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Originally posted by Ania_xox I don't think he's right at all when one considers the scope of the subject he just addressed. It's so easy to rip on people and call them stupid as opposed to trying to educate them on something that is SEEMINGLY important to you considering the passion in your message. Way to cop out there. (yes i know this is the c0r)

yes, because its my job to fill the vast empty void between the average COR member's ears. those that repeatedly refer to the second amendment are far beyond help, and i dont see the point in flogging that old horse. but feel free to be an apologist for the willfully ignorant if you wish.

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Originally posted by glass You are full of more beans and semen, that Elton John on a fistfull of Roofie's

see, how is the rest of the world meant to take you seriously when you can't even command your native language?

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Originally posted by Ang ' ela_ie The fact that you're referring to the United States as "America" says a lot about how much you've thought about, well, anything. I don't think that Labrador and Chile necessarily agree with anything you say.

Idiot.

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Originally posted by whiskers Go back to your sheep herd, the only reason you want to forget the past is because you want to hide the fact that you're an offspring of a criminal. Baaaah.

Trying the wrong tact there tiger. Im not nationalistic in the least and I couldn�t give a fuck about australia's criminal origins. Im a little smarter than that, far smarter than your average patriotic yank it appears.

would you like me to remind you of the convict history of the colonies? indeed, the issue of transportation to new holland came to a head due to the new world no longer taking criminals. how you like those apples?

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Originally posted by Nostalgic Did an American rape your mother or something? Jesus fucking christ.

Are you suggesting that a blanket, blind and/or completely misunderstood history of the your country by the very people that should understand it the best, is somehow ok? Or are you just another idiotic patriot that will leap to the defence of your country (whatever that means) just because?

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I guess you could always argue that we should simply disregard the Constitution and make whatever laws we please. That would definitely make the thoughts of the founders irrelevant.

youre a smart bloke jingles so i'll cut you some slack this time. you know that's not what im saying (though to be fair there are plenty of countries that do just fine without their antiquated document).

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton The founding fathers weren't just politicians. They were the first to apply the ideals of John Locke and Adam Smith. They were the first to give the power to the people thru' democracy. This is an example of principle ruling over personal power, as is with many politicians. Think about it....They could have chosen a king, thus, guaranteeing their status in the new country. But they didn't. They gave the power to the people. More than that, they wrote a contract between the people and the state protecting all people from the state. We should never forget what they did, and Americans should all protect what was given to them. No, they weren't just politicians. They were great men...and don't you forget PKC...

um, locke and smith were having a profound effect in europe well before the new world was doing anything interesting

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN um, locke and smith were having a profound effect in europe well before the new world was doing anything interesting

Maybe so, but none of it was institutionalized until the industrial revolution of England, and not even that. It took until the end World War I for Western Europe to really embrace those ideals. It was the founding fathers of America who really took those revolutionary ideas, and turned them into a full-fledged government. Don't forget the American democracy is the oldest in the world...

You all should check out the John Adams mini-series on HBO if you haven't already. I posted a thread about it a few weeks ago but not many responses. It fights off those typical teachings we get in school and really shows things in a much more accurate and realistic light.

These men weren't perfect by any means, but they were visionaries and intellectuals of the highest caliber.

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Originally posted by Krypton Don't forget the American democracy is the oldest in the world...

"democracy" comes from the greek, demokratia (or something) which was a form of land-owning voting rights held by the populace at around 500 BC

The U.S. isn't the first or oldest democracy, but if it lasts for nine more years, it will beat out ancient Athens for the longest unbroken stretch of democratic rule in world history.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles The U.S. isn't the first or oldest democracy, but if it lasts for nine more years, it will beat out ancient Athens for the longest unbroken stretch of democratic rule in world history.

but the "US" has only existed since what, 1865 (??) how does that reconcile with

quote:

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was created in 1801 by the merger of the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland under the Act of Union. The principle of ministerial responsibility to the lower House did not develop until the 19th century � the House of Lords was superior to the House of Commons both in theory and in practice. Members of the House of Commons were elected in an antiquated electoral system, under which constituencies of vastly different sizes existed. Thus, the borough of Old Sarum, with seven voters, could elect two members, as could the borough of Dunwich, which had completely disappeared into the sea due to land erosion. In many cases, members of the Upper House also controlled tiny constituencies, known as pocket or rotten boroughs, and could ensure the election of their relatives or supporters. Many seats in the House of Commons were "owned" by the Lords. After the reforms of the 19th century, beginning with the Reform Act of 1832, the electoral system in the lower House was much more regularised. No longer dependent on the upper House for their seats, members of the House of Commons began to grow more assertive.

Since 1776, if we take the Declaration of Independence as the starting date, or since 1787, if we take the adoption of its constitution as the starting date.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Since 1776, if we take the Declaration of Independence as the starting date, or since 1787, if we take the adoption of its constitution as the starting date.

ahhhh ok, roger that.

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Originally posted by Project-K Lincoln raped my sister

My random 2 cents on the American forefathers:

Alexander Hamilton is continually rolling in his grave because of how extraordinarily shitty his paper, the New York Post, has become over the years

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Originally posted by verndogs My random 2 cents on the American forefathers: Alexander Hamilton is continually rolling in his grave because of how extraordinarily shitty his paper, the New York Post, has become over the years

Haha! I just learned a new bit of history.

Never would have guessed that he founded it.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN "democracy" comes from the greek, demokratia (or something) which was a form of land-owning voting rights held by the populace at around 500 BC

I'm not talking about ancient Greek democracy which was really "rule by nobility". I'm talking modern liberal democracy...

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Originally posted by Krypton I'm not talking about ancient Greek democracy which was really "rule by nobility". I'm talking modern liberal democracy...

Uh, lots of American states had things like property qualifications and literacy tests for voting long into the 19th century.

Not to mention that blacks couldn't vote until nearly a hundred years after the American founding, and women of all races -- an entire half of the population! -- couldn't vote until fifty years after black males got their voting rights. Refusing to consider Greece a democracy based on the exclusivity of its franchise isn't going to fly if you know anything about U.S. history.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Uh, lots of American states had things like property qualifications and literacy tests for voting long into the 19th century. Not to mention that blacks couldn't vote until nearly a hundred years after the American founding, and women of all races -- an entire half of the population! -- couldn't vote until fifty years after black males got their voting rights. Refusing to consider Greece a democracy based on the exclusivity of its franchise isn't going to fly if you know anything about U.S. history.

Awesome, but tell me one country that allowed even SOME of their people to vote for who was in charge of government in the late 17th century...There wasn't any...Western Europe was still full of monarchies. There was no vote.

Well, I don't think anyone would disagree that the U.S. was the first "modern liberal democracy." But that wasn't the point of contention anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Well, I don't think anyone would disagree that the U.S. was the first "modern liberal democracy." But that wasn't the point of contention anyway.

My entire point was the founding fathers created the first modern liberal democracy, and that makes them much more than just meer policians, which is what the first post of this entire thread was saying...Whatever you guys brought up...I don't know...

Your original statement was:

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Don't forget the American democracy is the oldest in the world...

On its own, unqualified, this statement is incorrect.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Your original statement was: On its own, unqualified, this statement is incorrect.

Ok...Shoulda used "western liberal democracy"...MY BAD...

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton I'm not talking about ancient Greek democracy which was really "rule by nobility". I'm talking modern liberal democracy...

it wasn't "rule by nobility". and if you look at wiki and the history of democracy, you will notice quite a lot of other entrants, most of which will be ignored because americans just love to think highly of themselves.

indeed,

quote:

In November 1755, Pasquale Paoli proclaimed Corsica a sovereign nation, independent from the Republic of Genoa. He created the Corsican Constitution, which was the first constitution written under Enlightenment principles, including the first implementation of female suffrage, later revoked by the French when they took over the island in 1769. The republic created an administration, justice system, and founded an army. After a series of successful actions Paoli drove the Genoese from the whole island except for a few coastal towns. He then set to work to reorganize the government, introducing many reforms. He founded a university at Corte. He created a short-lived "Order of Saint-Devote" in 1757 in honor of the patron saint of the island, Saint Devota.[1] Paoli's ideas of independence, democracy and liberty gained support from such philosophers as Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Voltaire, Raynal, Mably [1]. The publication in 1766 of An Account of Corsica by James Boswell made Paoli famous all over Europe. In 1767 Corsica took the island of Capraia from the Genoese, who, one year later, despairing of ever being able to subjugate Corsica again, with the Treaty of Versailles sold their rights over it to France. French invaded Corsica the same year, and for one year Paoli's forces fought desperately for their new republic against the new invaders. However, in 1769 he was defeated in Ponte Nuovo by vastly superior forces under the Comte de Vaux, and obliged to take refuge in England

so, youre still incorrect.

Pkc, why do you hate America?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN it wasn't "rule by nobility". and if you look at wiki and the history of democracy, you will notice quite a lot of other entrants, most of which will be ignored because americans just love to think highly of themselves. indeed, so, youre still incorrect.

No I'm not. I said the American democracy is the oldest one today. Your own article says that the Corsican republic was destroyed by the French. The American democracy has been a continuous 232 years long.

Let me clarify myself again...."western liberal democracy currently existing today"...my bad again...

quote:

Originally posted by Sunsnail Pkc, why do you hate America?

I don�t hate america. Indeed, half of my favourite popular culture originates in the good ol US of A. but I am not a fan of people (read: americans) saying things like "oh, ours was the first democracy ever" when it wasn't, and even had it been, it was merely the culmination of democratic influence that had been around for at least 500 years before US independence. I hate the way the US has hijacked the real meanings of liberalism or conservatism. I hate that the US seems so happy to tell others what to do when half the bloody country couldn�t even find the middle east on a map. I get sick and tired of hearing about how fucking wonderful the country is (our forefathers said this! Oooh, we invented democracy! we have the biggest bombs ever!) when its quite often the poster child for everything that's wrong with the western world. I hate the level of ignorance that goes hand in hand with arrogance from so many of its citizens (read some of the retarded responses in this thread, or the gun thread). I hate the fact that so many americans have their heads so far up their fucking arses that any criticism of their holy democratic infrastructure is considered heresy, and a lone (often misguided) reference to the infallible forefathers is considered a good enough response by today's TA massive.

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