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-- Modern Tech House, Berliner Trance, and Contemporary Trance
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Essentially, the term "trance" went from being a descriptor of how a certain kind of music made you feel to being used to name a genre due to overuse (which, at the time, would be the most "accessible" type of dance music), amirite?

i think so

i think the original trance producers and label managers saw it as a sort of cultural connection to somewhat more primitive, ageless, spiritual dance-based cultures.

trance music is an ancient thing that i feel they were trying to connect to through electronics in a more perfect way

i mean just look at the names of the tracks and artists and labels. such a huge exotic and eastern influence



edit: also, read this about berlin

http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=6949

quote:

Mitte is one of the proud faces put on German unification. But outsider-artists and assorted freaks looped into the electronic borderlands help keep it in check. One guide to the city sharply refers to this subcultural elite — which first settled in Kreuzberg and has migrated east and north into Mitte and Prenzlauer Berg — as “anti-system deviants.” Viewed through the prism of a dialectical society that’s reinventing logic from experience rather than predetermined systems of belief, this description twinkles with innocence and romance.

quote:

Underground Berlin’s community of controlled madness — where radical thinkers and doers enjoy the freedom to be uncomfortable and social at the same time, in a town where work itself is being redefined in a local economy that rarely offers more than potential income-earning via government subsidies (for German citizens) and projects at home and (more likely) abroad for everyone else — is an opportunity for an artist that must be seized.

quote:

Hawtin was flanked left, about 15 feet above ground level, by one of eight musicians creating miniature sonic mysteries that fused into one sonic mind with a 300-minute-long pulse.

etc

good thread


my opinion:

I'm seeing the lines blurred between genres more and more. I think as soon as each genre becomes heavily classifiable, a few producers from that genre will reach out to techniques used in other genres and break the mold. I also find that when things get too drummy and groove-oriented, producers will reach out for melodic and atmospheric elements, which is what i see happening with tech-house, minimal, techno etc. I never really understood the label of trance and the controversy, probably because I simply was not around when the whole berliner trance thing was going on...I got heavily into EDM when dutch trance was exploding.

I've reached the point, as a dj, where I'm looking through every genre section to find good records now. I find its easier to make records work together from different genres presently than it was say 4 years ago. I feel genre lines were much more concrete back then. Because of the borrowing evolution I really feel the only difference now between the genres is marketing, cool factor, trendiness, cliques, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec also jivebo, i think your definition of trance as some 'high register' music is wayy too technical and misses the whole point of the documentary you have in your sig. maybe the poppy dancey pvd kind of stuff, but listen to the track at 4:45 and 5:50 in that video.

My point wasn't that a track having stuff in the high register means that it's trance, but that a track having nothing or very little in the high register means that it's probably not trance in the early trance style, and IMO the majority of early trance tracks bear that out as a generalization, though of course it isn't always true as you point out, and of course there can also be "trance" tracks that aren't in that specific style.

The problem is that when we starting talking about trance in semi-spiritual terms rather than in terms of sound, (a) it's not nearly as easy to separate the genres (but maybe this classification fetish is kind of pointless anyway, eh?) and (b) when you're using trance as a sort of pseudo-spiritual tag for a subjective state that the music creates in you rather than as a genre term covering a certain type of sound and arrangement, you can apply it to any music at all that affects you in that way, meaning that some music could simultaneously and equally be both "techno" and "trance," for example.

Which isn't necessarily a problem, but I thought this thread was supposed to be about what constitutes a "trancey sound."

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles The problem is that when we starting talking about trance in these semi-spiritual terms rather than in terms of sound, (a) it's not nearly as easy to separate the genres (but maybe this classification fetish is kind of pointless anyway, eh?) and (b) when you're using trance as a sort of pseudo-spiritual tag for a subjective state that the music creates in you rather than as a genre term covering a certain type of sound and arrangement, you can apply it to any music at all that affects you in that way, meaning that some music could simultaneously and equally be both "techno" and "trance."

again, i'm not inventing this spiritual stuff. mark reeder is saying this. "visions of shiva" is saying this. "cosmic baby" is saying this "sungods" "god's brain" "secret knowledge" "mystic force" "positive thinking" "project earth" "astral pilot" etc etc

the artists themselves infused it with a pseudo spiritual tag from the beginning. I don't think it's really about sound. it's about spirit and feeling. I think if it sounds similar it's more a result of limited technology and a tight scene that was creating its own mythology.

i think the line between techno and house and trance was blurry in the extreme and still is

ps, try to track down some marcel dettman sets

http://www.discogs.com/groups/topic/168031

they are blends of acid, house, techno, and trance

...but so is pvd's 92 dubmission set


wait til you get to minute 49 of the zenzero set part 1

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec again, i'm not inventing this spiritual stuff. mark reeder is saying this. "visions of shiva" is saying this. "cosmic baby" is saying this "sungods" "god's brain" "secret knowledge" "mystic force" "positive thinking" "project earth" "astral pilot" etc etc the artists themselves infused it with a pseudo spiritual tag from the beginning. I don't think it's really about sound. it's about spirit and feeling. I think if it sounds similar it's more a result of limited technology and a tight scene that was creating its own mythology. i think the line between techno and house and trance was blurry in the extreme and still is

So do I really.

I totally agree with you that the original producers of it were trying to create a certain feel and spirit rather than a specific sound, and that sound just happened to evolve out of the equipment and trends of the time rather than any conscious attempt on the part of producers to delimit their own efforts into a "genre."

But if someone talks about "trancey sounds," then I'm probably going to start talking about how trance historically sounded and compare those sounds to whatever tracks they mention rather than discussing whether the music makes me feel similarly to early trance, whether the scene has a similar vibe, etc., although those are certainly important and interesting discussions in their own right.

I don't think minimalism is a 'new' trend either, per se. Dance music tends to always go in cycles between anthemic/full-on and a more stripped down approach... it's just that nowadays, the word 'minimal' is everywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles But if someone talks about "trancey sounds," then I'm probably going to start talking about how trance historically sounded and compare those sounds to whatever tracks they mention rather than discussing whether the music makes me feel similarly to early trance, whether the scene has a similar vibe, etc., although those are certainly important and interesting discussions in their own right.

fair enough. i just wonder how useful that is.

it's like talking about paintings being similar just because they're both made on canvas with oils. for me it's the thematic content, composition, etc that matters


@game watch, certainly it's not new. rob hood was exploring minimalism back in 1990

what i did say was that it is the most important contemporary technique - i didn't say it was a new or novel technique.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec fair enough. i just wonder how useful that is. it's like talking about paintings being similar just because they're both made on canvas with oils. for me it's the thematic content, composition, etc that matters

No, it would be like comparing paintings according to their use of color, perspective, light and dark, etc. The visible elements (audible elements for music).

The other approach would be more like talking about paintings in terms of the beliefs and intentions of the artist, thematic content, and the social context in which it was painted. The stuff that isn't necessarily evident just by viewing it.

Still very interesting, and maybe more interesting depending on which painting you're talking about...

quote:

Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell I've reached the point, as a dj, where I'm looking through every genre section to find good records now. I find its easier to make records work together from different genres presently than it was say 4 years ago.

This is basically exactly what spurned the creation of this thread.

I feel pretty much the same way.

perfect example for this thread:


gummihz - under the sun


mobilee meets armada

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec also jivebo, i think your definition of trance as some 'high register' music is wayy too technical and misses the whole point of the documentary you have in your sig. maybe the peppy dancey pvd kind of stuff, but listen to the track at 4:45 and 5:50 in that video. in general, i will agree that trance music was more high-energy, but again, ill argue that this was for two reasons: drugs young age of listeners/patrons today's producers and crowds are older. they make slower and more dynamic music for their sensitive old ears and bodies. and i already mentioned the drugs kids still get into high energy music like pendulum dnb, pvd trance, hard dance for the same reasons. then their taste gets progressively slower and deeper until they start listening to ambient, post rock, and shoegaze...

I think that's a bit of a generalization, the age issue anyways. Age doesn't necessarily equate to slower taste in music, it may be the case for some people but I abhor anything that tries to streamline the aging process. I would think a more plausible explanation would simply be that after listening to high-energy EDM for years and years the same old leeds and synths just start to wear out, hence people start listening to different genres. I realize it isn't on the topic of trance progression, but age is nothing more than a number, only when you accept the generalization about the "inevitable" results of age (physical and mental attenuation) do you become a slave to the socializing aspects of society. Totally off topic, but something I feel is very important to avoid.

obviously i'm not claiming that for everyone individually


but i'm almost certain if you took a poll and asked people their ages and what they listened to and found the bpms of those tracks, if you averaged them, it would be faster when younger and slower when older.

the changes in drug use patterns can also be associated with the bpm lowering imo.

i can't deal with anything over 130 for too long anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec but i'm almost certain if you took a poll and asked people their ages and what they listened to and found the bpms of those tracks, if you averaged them, it would be faster when younger and slower when older.

Yep.

I think that people generally listen to more "extreme" music in their youth, either very melodramatic, obviously emotional stuff or just very fast, high energy things. As they age they start to prefer more "reflective" stuff, either slower-paced or just generally less melodramatic and over-the-top emotional.

I've seen that happen in lots of people, including myself.

drugs drugs drugs drugs drugs

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec all of the people who were into that stuff in the late 90s and early 00s are today championing so-called minimal tech house with the same sounds

Nicely put, I agree with RJT this is the most "purest" form of trance music as we knew it from 95-98... before the music turned into some kind of self-loathing pop industry machine.

Interesting though, that all the guys who i thought made really great dark, techno-oriented trance music in the late 90's are now making this minimal- or tech- house with the same attention to melody as they did 10 to 15 years ago.

I'm much more down with getting all melodically emo over Davis & May - Amica (Luca & Chevel Remix) than i would be quick to admit i like the latest Tyas production. Is that qa question of taste? Or are guys who've been in the scene for 10 years or more just drawn to the same sounds and production quality that they entered the scene with?

I've always associated the term trance with the actual effect of the music rather than if xx melodies or layers are present, or if Armin spins it or not. Trance is a feeling not a genre.

i would say it's just out of style


just like kids who grow up wearing ufo pants to fit in and now have to walk around in their early 30s with scarves and fedoras to be cool, or a tshirt with a nifty graphic design instead of a smiley face or alien


i think it's totally related to a generation getting older.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec just like kids who grow up wearing ufo pants to fit in and now have to walk around in their early 30s with scarves and fedoras to be cool, or a tshirt with a nifty graphic design instead of a smiley face or alien

Why is it that fashions only rotate back to twentieth century stuff? I say we bring back mutton chops or coats with frilly cuffs or elaborate white wigs.

Imagine a club filled with people dressed like George Washington or King Henry VIII.

quote:

i think it's totally related to a generation getting older.

I wonder what will happen as they get even older, in their forties and fifties and sixties.

A turn to prog rock or folk music?

[Edit: Or maybe ambient.]

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Why is it that fashions only rotate back to twentieth century stuff? I say we bring back mutton chops or coats with frilly cuffs or elaborate white wigs. Imagine a club filled with people dressed like George Washington or King Henry VIII.

seems like you haven't been to nyc in a while

there are people wearing tights, tunics, and peasant like pointy shoes


there is a whole subculture of hipsters wearing civil war style facial hair and even hats and girls with corsets and vintage dresses.

weird

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec seems like you haven't been to nyc in a while

I've never been, actually.

It's kind of amusing that people are actually doing that, though.

this is old but relevant
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/f...s/23BEARDS.html

quote:

Andrew Deutsch, a designer of interactive Web videos, swears that having a beard has changed his life, giving him an air of confidence. "I met my current girlfriend a week after I started growing my beard in November," Mr. Deutsch said. Now he finds himself constantly touching and stroking the beard, as if it were a talisman. "It's like a security blanket on my face," he said.

quote:

"Style has separated itself from viewpoint," said Tim Harrington, the lead singer of the rock band Les Savy Fav, who is known for his full beard and balding head. "This is not like when beards were worn by hippies. Now you pick a style for aesthetic reasons as opposed to a viewpoint. I wonder if beards can have the oomph they once had when it feels like someone will ask you: 'Where did you get that beard? Is that beard from Dolce & Gabbana?' "

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec obviously i'm not claiming that for everyone individually but i'm almost certain if you took a poll and asked people their ages and what they listened to and found the bpms of those tracks, if you averaged them, it would be faster when younger and slower when older.

Well, to me, high energy doesn't neccesarily imply a high BPM. Any song can be high-energy so long as there is a lot going on with the melody and nice buildups and so forth. I wouldn't consider 5 minutes of some repetitive hardcore track high energy even if it was 160+ bpm. Then again, i suppose the "energy level" of a track is pretty subjective.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec this is old but relevant http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/f...s/23BEARDS.html

quote:

"It's like a security blanket on my face," he said.

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