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-- Why does Ontario keep voting Liberal?
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Originally posted by Skipper Are you familiar with what is going on with the US housing/financial market and subprime crisis? The bailout is not for socialist reasons. The liquidity in the US lending markets (not just for consumers, but for everyone/thing that needs money) has all but completely dried up. If the bailout didn't happen, the US mortgage backers would go under, worldwide investor confidence would plummet, the markets would crash. I'm not exaggerating. If you want to see how bad it is already, look at the TSX and the dow today, look at what happened with United Airlines yesterday - investors are spooked and reacting for the sake of reacting.

Yes I'm aware of the situation with the US housing market. But what I'm wondering is if the market had been regulated to begin with (fixed rates), this might not be such a huge problem right now?

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 Yes I'm aware of the situation with the US housing market. But what I'm wondering is if the market had been regulated to begin with (fixed rates), this might not be such a huge problem right now?

You mean, if the lenders weren't permitted to create and sell subprime mortgages to begin with?

In any case, the government took a fairly sizeable equity stake in F&F - I think they were sr preferred shares - so it's not like they just threw cash at it like the Cdn government does with our auto industry.

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 Yes I'm aware of the situation with the US housing market. But what I'm wondering is if the market had been regulated to begin with (fixed rates), this might not be such a huge problem right now?

So you are advocating government intervention into private lending practices to stop government intervention into private lending practices?

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 fascist!

No. Corprate capitalist!

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 Yes I'm aware of the situation with the US housing market. But what I'm wondering is if the market had been regulated to begin with (fixed rates), this might not be such a huge problem right now?

you're quite right...but I think that this has virtually nothing to do with the Bush administration backtracking on it's supposed laissez-faire philosophy with regard to markets. I think you'll be hard pressed to find an analyst who thinks that the Bush administration WANTED to step in, lol.

very shoddy lending practices that simply don't exist in Canada (and what should be illegal investment practices) are essentially responsible for the mess...and the whole ABCP fiasco has ONLY BEGUN to unravel. Some analysts recently (re: this week) suggested that we are perhaps ONE QUARTER of the way through figuring out and experiencing the full fallout. That's pretty damn scary.

Fannie and Freddie are private corporations and, *in theory*, a gov't should not be in the business of propping up private corporations. they should sink or swim on their own merits. But, as Sarah mentioned, to let this occur here would potentially decimate the entire financial and real estate sectors (if not the economy as a whole, with the unavoidable spillover effect).

my not-so-technical understanding is that Fannie and Freddie tried to obtain the necessary capital from the private sector, but no one (including Warren Buffet, yes his involvement was suggested, lol!) was willing to invest the necessary $$$ in a couple of sinking ships. so the gov't had little choice but to act or potentially watch them collapse, with serious fallout.

yeah, it's beyond sketchy that taxpayer money being used to prop up private corporations. while that happens indirectly on a very regular basis (corporate tax breaks/incentives/subsidies, tarrifs on foreign imports, protectionist policies/laws, etc such as preventing foreign ownership of banks, etc), this is perhaps the most drastic and direct example (?). The alternative is probably a LOT worse though.

anyway...back to how awful it is for Torontonians to keep voting Liberal

I voted Liberal before because Jean Chretian choked a journalist (and who the hell likes those guys anyway?) and Paul Martin was the hero in waiting, ready and willing to make Canada the shining palace on top of the mountain for an entire generation!

Then I heard that Stephen Harper eats babies and kills puppies with his laser-vision, just like in Terminator! And that's TOTALLY wicked-cool, so I changed my vote.

Besides, Stephan Dion doesn't do ANYTHING cool. All he wants to do is make everything more expensive while giving me a little bit back. It's nice of him to empty my left pocket so my right pocket can get some attention, but he doesn't want to hurt, kill and maim anything, so I just find him COMPLETELY boring and out of touch. Doesn't he realize Canadians want laser-vision from their leaders? What a doof.

If I was still in school, I'd totally vote NDP, I could use a few weeks off during a string of "Layton Day"s. But since I don't work in a government job or go to school, he really has nothing to offer me except Obama's promise of change and hope. I HOPE if the NDP are elected that I have more than a handful of CHANGE after my taxes come off my pay-check.

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Originally posted by MarkT yeah, it's beyond sketchy that taxpayer money being used to prop up private corporations. while that happens indirectly on a very regular basis (corporate tax breaks/incentives/subsidies, tarrifs on foreign imports, protectionist policies/laws, etc such as preventing foreign ownership of banks, etc), this is perhaps the most drastic and direct example (?). The alternative is probably a LOT worse though.

Indeed. And the alternative would be insane.
Although some economic data is coming out now indicating that a recovery could begin as early as next summer.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 I do like public/private partnerships and closely monitored private services when it comes to delivery of social services. A carefully balanced mix between public and private maintains public interest while allowing costs to be controlled through the desire to earn a profit. This desire is what lacks when something is 100% public as the people running it assume that the money pot is endless and there is no drive to conserve expense and maximize performance.

I do agree with you there.

What kind of "overweight govt social programs" are you particularly against though?

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Originally posted by Jayx1 What did the Liberals ever do for toronto in 13 years? Cities arent using their voter power. If the liberals know that they cant do wrong and will always get elected why will they appeal to cities like toronto? And if the conservatives know that they can never do right why would they try to win over toronto? Voting liberal no matter what is what is costing toronto it's electoral power.

calm the fuck down. i didn't even say how i prefer to vote, never mind cast my vote for the liberals unequivocally. read the post again.

the question was why does ontario keep voting liberal - i answered that in the form of why this happens as a form of anti-sentiment against PC rather than pro-Liberal.
because people tend to not vote for PC in large cities, and because ontario has lots of big cities, on average that equates to liberal through default rather than liberal directly. you'll find that directly in cities the ndp do very well too, but overall not so much.

and why then is their an anti-PC sentiment in cities? because they tend to not fund as a rule; that's their whole m.o., being the party they are that tout lower taxes and generally 'work it out yourself' kind of philosophy. cities don't like that because they know that cities provide the economic stimulus that powers the bulk of canada's economy, and so view the PC agenda as short-sighted.

it also doesn't help the PC cause that in urban centres, there tends to be a much wider range of cultures and a more liberal(small 'l') sense of rights, etc. and so the PC habit of appealing to more traditional values doesn't fly so well.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 The 2 Billion dollar gun registry?

That was an NDP idea that the Liberals implemented.

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Originally posted by Skipper I do agree with you there. What kind of "overweight govt social programs" are you particularly against though?

Our bloated health care system. There needs to be more of a public/private partnership and if people with money want to go to the front of the line they can pay more and subsidize everyone else while also freeing up space. Furthermore pricing and salaries can still be regulated by government in order to ensure a balanced system.

National daycare as proposed by liberals and NDP. No thanks. If you cant afford to have kids, dont have them. Its bad enough that bachalors and seniors have to pay education taxes as it is but at least that goes toward a better educated population as opposed to supporting someone's double income lifestyle.

Gun registries, complicated income and corperate taxes, CRTC, and the list goes on. These are the things that make our country innefficient and helps send jobs overseas.

The green shift is one more burden we do not need. As i said, lets fix the environment with innovative, money making ideas instead of just another new tax.

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Originally posted by Abercrombie That was an NDP idea that the Liberals implemented.

case closed haha

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Originally posted by Orko So you are advocating government intervention into private lending practices to stop government intervention into private lending practices?

who says I want to stop it? And I'm not opposed to government regulation. I do think more needs to be done to protect the consumer at the moment too. I just don't see much protection in "opening more free markets" like Harper, McCain and most conservatives blather on about.

Jay, are you really blaming the fucking gun registry and CRTC for having anything to do with well paying manufacturing jobs going "overseas"? That's BS and you know it. The reason they are leaving is because corporations only care about their bottom line and since NAFTA and other global trading agreements can ship them off to such thriving nations as Mexico, in Central America, Indonesia, China, etc. Labour costs are among the easiest to cut and there is absolutely no worker protection. Why do you ignore this?

You want to put more trust in insurance companies for our healthcare? The same ones that have been posting record profits for decades in this country and completely OWN your ass when it comes to premiums? Yikes.

I guess I am more apt to trust my government with things like that than I am the private sector.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 So you think youll save in taxes? Really? Well who will pay it then? Answer is everybody.

Not quite so simple. What I save in income tax and don't pay back due to my efforts to be more energy efficient will be made up by those who are less so. What this plan really does is reward people who have made the investments to reduce their reliance on fosile fules and those who chose to purchase local goods and services. Some will save money (even after one includes the increased cost for consumer goods) whereas others will pay more. In the end this allows the individual to have additional control over their tax burden... if you want to save money then become more energy efficient and make smarter choices when purchasing consumer goods, if you prefer to maintain the same lifestyle you have now then pay for it... simple as that.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Thanks but no thanks Dion. If you really had a green plan youd start putting solar and wind power as a supplement to the grid in every newly built home.

Outside of the federal government's jurisdiction. You astound me; how you spout off about politics and government without actually understanding either. Now quick... go check the CPC website to see if there is a pre-written talking point you can use as a retort.

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Originally posted by rabbitjoker No. Corprate capitalist!

I wish we had a Party that was actually Conservative...not those wanna be CPCs...