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Popular opinion is precisely what ended the Vietnam War, which was actually widely approved when it first started. The draft is what really tipped the scale.

keep thinking that your voice means more than it does.

what ended the war was the united states getting their asses handed to them, and the realization that they could not possibly win.

anything can be spun 1000 ways man, and you are being naive i think. What did popular opinion control in the way of your elected president?

popular opinion does not shape policy, and guess what it never really has.

lol

who keeps 97K in a savings account???

quote:

Originally posted by keithos27 who keeps 97K in a savings account???

the one who wants to stay insured

quote:

Originally posted by elFreak keep thinking that your voice means more than it does.

Well, one voice means basically nothing. Tens of thousands of voices are another matter.

quote:

what ended the war was the united states getting their asses handed to them, and the realization that they could not possibly win.

There were still millions of young American men to send off, but eventually we stopped sending them. Why? Because the guys in charge concluded that trying to topple the DRV government wasn't worth the public relations disaster that was unfolding.

quote:

anything can be spun 1000 ways man, and you are being naive i think. What did popular opinion control in the way of your elected president?

Popular opinion controls whether the President's party gets to put a successor in his place.

You're being incredibly naive if you think U.S. presidents just do whatever the hell they want without regard to how it will affect their party's chances in future elections.

i think we're dealing with a different kind of war here

the kind of grass roots physical mobilization that got the usa in gear in wwii is very different than the type of warfare and prep which is currently going on.

WaMu (Washington Mutual) has just gone belly up.

It's going to be bought by JP Morgan.

Re: Re: Wallstreet- $700 billion proposed bailout!

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Who's economy? It is obviously bad for the average american - the only way this bail out is warrented is as a buyout. .. all this cr4p would revert to the US or creditors anyway. The US bank insurance will take huge hit, federal reserve will be weakened, because the banks havn't been good at pimping Indian Land. Who cares life marches on. The money has no value anyway, the rich will only get poorer if they are heavily invested into bonds and currency. Tresury will actually take a breather, but nothing will happen.. it is all play money anyway. It is real to the people eeking out life, but it is fabricated, some grander game that has no absolutes. Who cares. If people really cared about one another all this copyright bs, private ownership, toll roads, tarriffs, taxes etc.. etc. .wouldn't even exist, it is just BS because control freaks like to point guns at peoples heads, and life is fabricated as limitation because anything else is disallowed because freedom would bring freedom from a reality and the cult would sunder. In life there is no peace, and 700 Billion is around 2500$ from every american, or something like that. -- how much did the war cost? but really who is really paying the bill - the people whos social security vanishes because of US debt, but you'd rather kill somene who beleives that theives should have their hands cut off than pay for someones college education. Because the world is evil. Dead weight, but real lives. Supply and demand, obviously either the state or some private body will manage their assets... part of the issue -- someone has that money though. that money did not cease to exist - someone has it.. so this bail out is really a huge transfer of inflatonary money tha will bring recession because the rich people will loose value, and they then need to hammer down the difference by repressing people. Option A: make more money Option B: Let someone else manage other peoples money.

incoherence 101. stay tuned for 201 next semester.

Re: Wallstreet- $700 billion proposed bailout!

quote:

Originally posted by digitalbreach Have not seen anything regarding the proposed bailout of Wallstreet on TA yet. Was wondering what you guys felt about it? A. I think its good for the economy B. I don't want to bail out company's who did bad investments with my own tax money c. What is Wallstreet? Here's a good article i finished reading on Wired article

This is all a scam with the global propaganda machines spilling their agendas into the human psyche, manipulating humans with fear that the economy is in danger.

The haste and onslaught of the propaganda machines infects the mentality of the masses to believe it is acceptable to spend 700 billion dollars on failure b/c of the fear that everything else will fail.

Sure there is trouble in the markets, FREE MARKETS, but what is freedom if more fake money is pumped into an economy? Are we playing monopoly did we just pass GO to collect a 700 billion dollar deficit to add to our 2.2 Trillion dollar spending spree??

Why is the Executive branch asking for more money ?

I think the issues here is that the failed venture capitalistic mutli-billion dollar corporations should not be allowed access to money to help fuel an economy on credit.

Why is the Executive branch asking for money to prop up the elite multi-billion dollar corporate failures? Oh yeah it is b/c all of you tax payers are gonna get screwed if you don't invest!

Well grow up or get Fuct, b/c who ever the fuck gets 700 billion dollars within the next couple of months will be buying up all the shit that is super cheap due to failures. From there the investment isn't anything more than a profiteering game. We buy, then sell it back to you at a higher price bitches!

At any rate. . .the monetary system in the US is going to be shot to shit due and who gets to foot the fucking bill? The American Tax payers . . .

Why are there Closed door meetings with the president on these issues. . .why haven't there been president addresses to the general public before the president just flops a big hairy bill with dingle berries over Congress?

Then Bush is like hyping the shit up through the propaganda machine, only to then say American is in trouble. . . Fuk we are in trouble? seriously President Bush can you tackle a War + the economy with spending money the United States doesn't have?
Bush's responce, "You are with US or TEHM."

I'll tell you what as an American Tax payer the last thing I want to do is get fuct over b/c of some super huge government spending spree in a blitz or haste of saying, "Teh Economy is in trouble." From there a bill gets passed in how long? I doubt anyone has really spent enough time to craft a quality piece of work with out fucking over the Tax Payers b/c the Tax Payers will be footing their Govern"MENTAL," spending spree.

Also if you read the original piece of work coming from the Executive branch you'd know how INSANE the request was.

To sum things up here is what is going on.

"The administration is in �hurry it up mode,� and warned of economic collapse if it�s not signed by Friday. They are touting the economic equivalent of the ticking time bomb scenario that�s worked so well in getting authorization for torture." ~FOXForums

USE FEAR To kill the individual thinking minds. FEAR IS THE MIND KILLER! ~ Some DNB track

Oh well I see this happening and it enrages me to no end how ignorantly manipulated humans are to agree with passing a bill in such little time with out fully understanding the dire implications of what may be enacted through congressional LAW.

P.S. Bush's original proposal was FEKKIN INSANE!

Re: Re: Wallstreet- $700 billion proposed bailout!

quote:

Originally posted by we_R_DNA This is all a scam with the global propaganda machines spilling their agendas into the human psyche, manipulating humans with fear that the economy is in danger. The haste and onslaught of the propaganda machines infects the mentality of the masses to believe it is acceptable to spend 700 billion dollars on failure b/c of the fear that everything else will fail. Sure there is trouble in the markets, FREE MARKETS, but what is freedom if more fake money is pumped into an economy? Are we playing monopoly did we just pass GO to collect a 700 billion dollar deficit to add to our 2.2 Trillion dollar spending spree?? Why is the Executive branch asking for more money ? I think the issues here is that the failed venture capitalistic mutli-billion dollar corporations should not be allowed access to money to help fuel an economy on credit. Why is the Executive branch asking for money to prop up the elite multi-billion dollar corporate failures? Oh yeah it is b/c all of you tax payers are gonna get screwed if you don't invest! Well grow up or get Fuct, b/c who ever the fuck gets 700 billion dollars within the next couple of months will be buying up all the shit that is super cheap due to failures. From there the investment isn't anything more than a profiteering game. We buy, then sell it back to you at a higher price bitches! At any rate. . .the monetary system in the US is going to be shot to shit due and who gets to foot the fucking bill? The American Tax payers . . . Why are there Closed door meetings with the president on these issues. . .why haven't there been president addresses to the general public before the president just flops a big hairy bill with dingle berries over Congress? Then Bush is like hyping the shit up through the propaganda machine, only to then say American is in trouble. . . Fuk we are in trouble? seriously President Bush can you tackle a War + the economy with spending money the United States doesn't have? Bush's responce, "You are with US or TEHM." I'll tell you what as an American Tax payer the last thing I want to do is get fuct over b/c of some super huge government spending spree in a blitz or haste of saying, "Teh Economy is in trouble." From there a bill gets passed in how long? I doubt anyone has really spent enough time to craft a quality piece of work with out fucking over the Tax Payers b/c the Tax Payers will be footing their Govern"MENTAL," spending spree. Also if you read the original piece of work coming from the Executive branch you'd know how INSANE the request was. To sum things up here is what is going on. "The administration is in �hurry it up mode,� and warned of economic collapse if it�s not signed by Friday. They are touting the economic equivalent of the ticking time bomb scenario that�s worked so well in getting authorization for torture." ~FOXForums USE FEAR To kill the individual thinking minds. FEAR IS THE MIND KILLER! ~ Some DNB track Oh well I see this happening and it enrages me to no end how ignorantly manipulated humans are to agree with passing a bill in such little time with out fully understanding the dire implications of what may be enacted through congressional LAW. P.S. Bush's original proposal was FEKKIN INSANE!

so, what's your wonderful solution to the problem? and i certainly hope you have a degree in economics if youre going to bother to answer.

Re: Re: Wallstreet- $700 billion proposed bailout!

quote:

Originally posted by we_R_DNA This is all a scam with the global propaganda machines spilling their agendas into the human psyche, manipulating humans with fear that the economy is in danger. The haste and onslaught of the propaganda machines infects the mentality of the masses to believe it is acceptable to spend 700 billion dollars on failure b/c of the fear that everything else will fail. Sure there is trouble in the markets, FREE MARKETS, but what is freedom if more fake money is pumped into an economy? Are we playing monopoly did we just pass GO to collect a 700 billion dollar deficit to add to our 2.2 Trillion dollar spending spree?? Why is the Executive branch asking for more money ? I think the issues here is that the failed venture capitalistic mutli-billion dollar corporations should not be allowed access to money to help fuel an economy on credit. Why is the Executive branch asking for money to prop up the elite multi-billion dollar corporate failures? Oh yeah it is b/c all of you tax payers are gonna get screwed if you don't invest! Well grow up or get Fuct, b/c who ever the fuck gets 700 billion dollars within the next couple of months will be buying up all the shit that is super cheap due to failures. From there the investment isn't anything more than a profiteering game. We buy, then sell it back to you at a higher price bitches! At any rate. . .the monetary system in the US is going to be shot to shit due and who gets to foot the fucking bill? The American Tax payers . . . Why are there Closed door meetings with the president on these issues. . .why haven't there been president addresses to the general public before the president just flops a big hairy bill with dingle berries over Congress? Then Bush is like hyping the shit up through the propaganda machine, only to then say American is in trouble. . . Fuk we are in trouble? seriously President Bush can you tackle a War + the economy with spending money the United States doesn't have? Bush's responce, "You are with US or TEHM." I'll tell you what as an American Tax payer the last thing I want to do is get fuct over b/c of some super huge government spending spree in a blitz or haste of saying, "Teh Economy is in trouble." From there a bill gets passed in how long? I doubt anyone has really spent enough time to craft a quality piece of work with out fucking over the Tax Payers b/c the Tax Payers will be footing their Govern"MENTAL," spending spree. Also if you read the original piece of work coming from the Executive branch you'd know how INSANE the request was. To sum things up here is what is going on. "The administration is in �hurry it up mode,� and warned of economic collapse if it�s not signed by Friday. They are touting the economic equivalent of the ticking time bomb scenario that�s worked so well in getting authorization for torture." ~FOXForums USE FEAR To kill the individual thinking minds. FEAR IS THE MIND KILLER! ~ Some DNB track Oh well I see this happening and it enrages me to no end how ignorantly manipulated humans are to agree with passing a bill in such little time with out fully understanding the dire implications of what may be enacted through congressional LAW. P.S. Bush's original proposal was FEKKIN INSANE!

Hey thanks for the info,I understand the situation alot better then I did before.

Basically from my understanding this 700 billion wont do anything for the people in the long run.This will only save those multi million dollard CEO'S in the corporate world.

My question is what will happen if the they dont get this 700 billion now?will it effect the citizens of the country?

quote:

Originally posted by keithos27 it's a necessary evil... without the bailout the ripple effect would be too large in the financial services industry. besides, it's hardly going to effect each individual person that greatly (the taxes)...

Quite.

Better that than having the whole banking industry, and subsequently economy grind to a halt because banks won't lend to eachother.

The government can buy the near worthless securities, have Uncle Ben wave his magic wand over them and in two years offload them for something of a profit. Remember there are houses behind many of these that will gain value.

It was a case of finding who would be willing to take hold of these securities and nobody had the cash, except the Fed.

*waiting for a spacechica question/comment*

Re: Re: Re: Wallstreet- $700 billion proposed bailout!

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Basically from my understanding this 700 billion wont do anything for the people in the long run.This will only save those multi million dollard CEO'S in the corporate world.

not true.

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer My question is what will happen if the they dont get this 700 billion now?will it effect the citizens of the country?

what do you think will happen to an economy that thrives on credit if that credit dries up? we're talking about a catastrophic lack of elasticity in the market. everything and everyone will suffer, and the further you are down the food chain the less able you will be to deal with the problems.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Wallstreet- $700 billion proposed bailout!

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN not true. what do you think will happen to an economy that thrives on credit if that credit dries up? we're talking about a catastrophic lack of elasticity in the market. everything and everyone will suffer, and the further you are down the food chain the less able you will be to deal with the problems.

So bailing them out for 700 billion for their screw ups is the answer to the problem?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wallstreet- $700 billion proposed bailout!

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer So bailing them out for 700 billion for their screw ups is the answer to the problem?

that's a rather loaded question!

look, im certainly not one to normally support government supporting business. but this is a special case. what you have to answer is what will be worse, the bailout or doing nothing? in my opinion doing nothing will be worse for the US economy. i might be wrong. if there is a third alternative being suggested i would like to hear it.

i dont see it as "bailing out" the corporations, i see it as minimising the economic impact for john citizen when he wants to buy a new car.

Re: Re: Re: Wallstreet- $700 billion proposed bailout!

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN so, what's your wonderful solution to the problem? and i certainly hope you have a degree in economics if youre going to bother to answer.

An Abstraction of reason to deal with the said,"problem," may be found in this illustration of, "Muh Free NRG art WERK!"

Re: Re: Re: Re: Wallstreet- $700 billion proposed bailout!

quote:

Originally posted by we_R_DNA An Abstraction of reason to deal with the said,"problem," may be found in this illustration of, "Muh Free NRG art WERK!"

yep. that's what i thought.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wallstreet- $700 billion proposed bailout!

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN that's a rather loaded question! look, im certainly not one to normally support government supporting business. but this is a special case. what you have to answer is what will be worse, the bailout or doing nothing? in my opinion doing nothing will be worse for the US economy. i might be wrong. if there is a third alternative being suggested i would like to hear it. i dont see it as "bailing out" the corporations, i see it as minimising the economic impact for john citizen when he wants to buy a new car.

yes but what's crazy is that we are just gonna hand over 700b to some guy who we didnt even elect, who was CEO of GS and let Lehman Bros. go bankrupt which i think is bit fishy, so that he can do whatever he pleases with it, while nobody but him has a say to what he does with that enormous amount of money

what most people are saying is, which i might agree, that why dont we give him maybe lets say 100b and see what he does with it

if we see good results, he can have couple more 100b's

Re: Re: Re: Wallstreet- $700 billion proposed bailout!

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer My question is what will happen if the they dont get this 700 billion now?will it effect the citizens of the country?

Don't get 700 billion now? Investment into NORML is always on option on the table.

Past that I've no clue really how this entire issue effects citizens, but I do see direct impacts of hurricanes effecting gas prices.

Wait hurricane season ends when?!

I hear people are getting kicked out of their houses and there are now poor people I mean homeless people on the streets. This is a direct effect of perhaps an ever snowballing deterministic chaos which has lead us to our present situation. . . How many homeless does America have now that IKE hit Houston,Tx? Ontop of that how many cannot rebuild their homes? There are certain things humans cannot presently tame, but I have heard someone some say, "We created economics, so we can solve economics." Do we necessarily create problems only to finally say this whole method failed? Do we solve necessary problems we've created? If we created economics and there is a huge problem with the current economy, have we not already created the problem?

This is what I think it looks like if we keep using the current method of dealing with issues under the current fundamentals of economics.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wallstreet- $700 billion proposed bailout!

quote:

Originally posted by Agent0 yes but what's crazy is that we are just gonna hand over 700b to some guy who we didnt even elect, who was CEO of GS and let Lehman Bros. go bankrupt which i think is bit fishy, so that he can do whatever he pleases with it

The CEOs of these IBs (well, former IBs) don't want them to fail anymore than you do! A huge portion of their compensation is granted in stock options, which is directly tied to their performance; they do well then the stock goes up = $$$, they go down the crapper then they lose tens of millions of dollars, maybe even low nine figure sums of their own money. If they decide to dump the stock then shareholders lose confidence in the company and sell off so the company fails, the latter likely with IBs in such a volatile market.

quote:

Originally posted by elFreak if i were you i would worry more about the draft being brought back.

they day i get that letter in the mail is the day i renounce my citizenship!

IMO there should be no bail-out. This whole mess was caused by financial institutions begging for less government intervention so they could more fully fuel their greed. I think it's funny as hell that this mess was created by people who wanted no government intervention and are begging for government intervention to save their asses. I say let the whole thing go down; it's only after something collapses that it can be rebuilt. Of course an economic meltdown is going to hurt, but better to do it now and get it over with.

"Let all that is falling also be pushed." - Nietzsche


Could this be Marx's capitalist crisis?

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Could this be Marx's capitalist crisis?

Capitalism and deregulation are actually two separate issues, since it's possible to have an unregulated system without capitalism (anarcho-syndicalism) and a highly regulated system with capitalism (fascism). The current problems are a result of low regulation, not of capitalism.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Capitalism and deregulation are actually two separate issues, since it's possible to have an unregulated system without capitalism (anarcho-syndicalism) and a highly regulated system with capitalism (fascism). The current problems are a result of low regulation, not of capitalism.

While that's true I was specifically referring to Marx's prediction that capitalism, through it's rapacious nature, would suffer a tremendous crisis resulting in a drastic redistribution of wealth which would inevitably lead to communism. Marx did not bother to comment on the mechanism for this crisis. I agree with you in that capitalism and deregulation are separate issues; however, with deregulation creating a crisis in credit and credit being the cornerstone upon which western capitalism is built the credit crisis threatens capitalism as a whole.

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