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-- Joe the Plumber
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Originally posted by jerZ07002 where's the slippery slope? i had a prof in law school that used to say that a situation that is usually termed a slippery slope is more likely a sticky step. the slippery slope concept is usually BS because people like status quo and fight change to the bitter end. in any event, explain the slippery slope theory on this one. you fear an obama administration would push for lowering the highest marginal tax bracket to 100K? Even the most liberal democrat wouldn't go along with that, simply because it would put every member of congress is the highest tax bracket.

Ever heard the phrase "give him an inch and he'll take a mile?"

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Originally posted by josh4 Oh bullshit, as if I'm too naive to understand and wouldn't feel the way I do now should my situation be different. I get the philosophy and I agree with the methods. Regardless, as Occrider put it In the end, if its good enough for those guys, its good enough for me. Can't possibly be any worse than the past 8 years. (That was a cherry just for you.)

OK, since you have been protected by the walls of academia for the past 8 years, how specifically have the past 8 years been so bad for YOU?

Also, here's a newsflash: $250K ain't that much money.

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Originally posted by Shakka OK, since you have been protected by the walls of academia for the past 8 years, how specifically have the past 8 years been so bad for YOU? Also, here's a newsflash: $250K ain't that much money.

That's an obvious bait to get into a drawn out point by point confrontation with you that I have no interest in doing.

That's pretty fucking weak even for you. Don't make hyperbolic generalizations of you have no intention of even attempting to back them up.

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Originally posted by Shakka I don't give a shit about Joe the Plumber--again it's the philosophy involved and the slippery slope that Obama is pushing. Don't worry Josh, you too will have a job and a family to support some day.

Yeah, supporting your family by electing republicans will turn out great when your kid comes out to you one day. Or marries teh black folk. Or whatever crazy civil rights shit they come up with in the next 30 years.

And there's nothing like looking out for your kids' futures like making the dollar worth less than a peso, and inciting the hatred of half the world and half the nation.

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Originally posted by DJ Shibby And there's nothing like looking out for your kids' futures like making the dollar worth less than a peso, and inciting the hatred of half the world and half the nation.

All significant challenges that I don't hold George Bush solely responsible for. I can readily admit to plenty of flaws and mistakes made by the Bush administration, but it goes far beyond that. Bush has just become the convenient scapegoat that nobody feels the need to challenge. Our entire society and culture are fucked up and it didn't just happen in the last 8 years.

Got a flat tire? Must be Bush's fault. Gas and upset stomach? Take some pepto, but don't forget to blame Bush.

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Originally posted by Shakka All significant challenges that I don't hold George Bush solely responsible for. I can readily admit to plenty of flaws and mistakes made by the Bush administration, but it goes far beyond that. Bush has just become the convenient scapegoat that nobody feels the need to challenge. Our entire society and culture are fucked up and it didn't just happen in the last 8 years. Got a flat tire? Must be Bush's fault. Gas and upset stomach? Take some pepto, but don't forget to blame Bush.

Well I can't fault you for having passion for your family or your fellow man...

Just be dynamic, don't buy the bullshit on either side of the fence.

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Originally posted by Shakka All significant challenges that I don't hold George Bush solely responsible for. I can readily admit to plenty of flaws and mistakes made by the Bush administration, but it goes far beyond that. Bush has just become the convenient scapegoat that nobody feels the need to challenge. Our entire society and culture are fucked up and it didn't just happen in the last 8 years. Got a flat tire? Must be Bush's fault. Gas and upset stomach? Take some pepto, but don't forget to blame Bush.

So you're flustered because everyone is taking the easy way out by just putting all their problems on Bush. What would you have them do, accurately describe the real people responsible for each minute problem?

Bush isn't a scapegoat, he has become an icon for everything wrong with the system and a culture that elects not qualified men but morons that "understand them" and their small town values. Continually making more problems for the country already waist deep in them while solving nothing.

Historians have already gone on record to call him the worst President in history. His approval ratings are approaching the worst for any president ever and all hes done is the best he can do. I'd like to know what has Bush done well. You can admit to his flaws and mistakes, but what is his legacy?

Though you don't seem to be defending Bush but making a generalization of your problem with people blaming him for everything. What exactly is your problem with it?

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Originally posted by josh4 So you're flustered because everyone is taking the easy way out by just putting all their problems on Bush. What would you have them do, accurately describe the real people responsible for each minute problem? Bush isn't a scapegoat, he has become an icon for everything wrong with the system and a culture that elects not qualified men but morons that "understand them" and their small town values. Continually making more problems for the country already waist deep in them while solving nothing. Historians have already gone on record to call him the worst President in history. His approval ratings are approaching the worst for any president ever and all hes done is the best he can do. I'd like to know what has Bush done well. You can admit to his flaws and mistakes, but what is his legacy? Though you don't seem to be defending Bush but making a generalization of your problem with people blaming him for everything. What exactly is your problem with it?

Nonsense, Bush has worked tirelessly to help free the people of the Middle East and bring them democracy.

quote:

Originally posted by josh4 So you're flustered because everyone is taking the easy way out by just putting all their problems on Bush. What would you have them do, accurately describe the real people responsible for each minute problem? Bush isn't a scapegoat, he has become an icon for everything wrong with the system and a culture that elects not qualified men but morons that "understand them" and their small town values. Continually making more problems for the country already waist deep in them while solving nothing. Historians have already gone on record to call him the worst President in history. His approval ratings are approaching the worst for any president ever and all hes done is the best he can do. I'd like to know what has Bush done well. You can admit to his flaws and mistakes, but what is his legacy? Though you don't seem to be defending Bush but making a generalization of your problem with people blaming him for everything. What exactly is your problem with it?

So while you refuse to name specifics by your own admission, your main argument for why he is the worst is based on others' opinions and popularity polls. By those measures we also have a congress that is even worse than Bush! And hell, they probably are. You want to call Bush a bad president, that's fine--he certainly does leave a pretty unfortunate legacy. He came into office at the start of a recession and he's leaving with the financial system in shambles (Neither of which I believe he is directly responsible for, but both of which occurred while he was in office). He fought an extremely unpopular war, though many are hopeful that some good will ultimately come from it.

I happen to admire that he was often willing to do what was unpopular--that shows leadership (even if those decisions sometimes turned out to be poorly executed or not quite correct in hindsight). I simply don't need someone else's opinion to tell me what I believe.

Positively, he appointed Ben Bernanke, one of the smarter minds in this country to be able to come up with new, innovative ways to deal with the crisis we are seeing now. Bernanke has the unfortunate challenge of dealing with Greenspan's legacy (amazing how Greenspan got high approval marks, but helped sow the seeds for the crisis we're going through now, eh? Another reason I don't believe in opinion polls or approval ratings). I think that Paulson was behind the curve early in '07, but he has come to understand the crisis as well and is throwing everything he's got behind it. Those will probably be two of Bush's most important positive attributes.

Also, as far as Volcker, Buffet and the like go--I have nothing but the utmost respect for them, they are very smart and capable people. I would gladly remind you that they are also very supportive of the actions being taken by Fed and Treasury right now, so I'm not sure it's really a point to debate. I've generally taken your Bush criticisms to be more foreign policy related, but perhaps I'm mistaken. Quick--without looking it up on the Internet, tell me what you really know about Volcker.

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Originally posted by Q5echo yeah, it's painfully obvious you think the "relevancy" of Obama's answer to Joe's question is directly proportional how many times its mentioned. so not mention it at all and everything will be fine is your defence? tell me something thats not so obvious more to the point though...my God you people never cease to amaze me. how many times have politicians invoked people they've met on the campaign trail in a stump speech or debate of some sort? people like this are invoked because of their common connection with not only the electorate at large but whatever percieved connection they have to that particular candidate's viewpoint. how is this guy any different? i'll tell you why... this time the person who was invoked revealed something very telling about Obama, now he's targeted like a public official instead of who he really is or represents, the electorate. McCain brought up this guy because of what it revealed about your candidate, plain and simple. if anything is telling now it's how people like you tolerate, even condone, the personal destuction of people for what they believe in or what they expect out of the people THEY want working for THEM. if you can't step out of the f**king box and see how f**ked up that is then you are what's wrong with this country not guys like Joe the Plumber or even Obama for that matter

This has absolutely nothing to do with Obama. lol.

"Joe the Plumber" was mentioned 21 times in the space of an hour and a half by John McCain in front of 50 million or more viewers. Of course people were going to want to find out who he was since McCain made him such a central figure.

I don't 'tolerate' the personal destruction of anybody (even though that's hardly been the case here, as Joe himself has said he's tickled by the attention) - but the question isn't what garnered the attention - it's McCain's utilization of the question and Joe's good name to score political points 21 times in that debate.

I'm sick and tired of the far left portaying people that earn an income of 250K+ a year being labeled as extremely wealthy. That is BS! These individuals we can say have more financial flexibility than others earning less. But the notion that these people should be taxed even more its a truly dissapointing. I mean, all americans work hard for their money. Some work more and are rewarded a bit more, guess what? thats life and they should be able to enjoy the fruits of their work and not be taken away from them.

Obama talks about they can afford to be taxed a bit more.... Obama should raise the bracket and tax those that earn tens and hundreds of million of dollars. There is no doubt that those individuals can afford to pay more to uncle sam. But to those earning 250k+ that includes the doctor, the lawyer & the small business owner etc. is truly dilussional view from his part

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Originally posted by LatinLover I'm sick and tired of the far left portaying people that earn an income of 250K+ a year being labeled as extremely wealthy. That is BS! These individuals we can say have more financial flexibility than others earning less. But the notion that these people should be taxed even more its a truly dissapointing. I mean, all americans work hard for their money. Some work more and are rewarded a bit more, guess what? thats life and they should be able to enjoy the fruits of their work and not be taken away from them. Obama talks about they can afford to be taxed a bit more.... Obama should raise the bracket and tax those that earn tens and hundreds of million of dollars. There is no doubt that those individuals can afford to pay more to uncle sam. But to those earning 250k+ that includes the doctor, the lawyer & the small business owner etc. is truly dilussional view from his part

Yeah, cause for those making $250,000 a year, an increase in annual taxation by $740 is definitely an undue hindrance to their ability to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Ever heard the phrase "give him an inch and he'll take a mile?"

i sure have. the problem with that phrase in this context is the president can't actually take anything. its not like he can unilaterally increase the rate or lower the bracket thresholds.

i think the obama plan is simply to allow the expiration of the rate reductions introduced by bush and now codified in IRC section 1(i)(2). If you actually look at the rates in the internal revenue code, the code includes the 39.6% rate for those making over 250K. Noone is even giving Obama anything, the higher rates will apply after 2010 simply by inaction on the part of Congress. On the other hand, in order for the lower rates to apply past 2010, Obama would actually have to ask congress to pass law. In summary, no one is giving him an inch, so he has no opportunity to take a mile.

as an aside: taxes during most the reagan administration were much higher for the rich. the rate for the top bracket was 50% for most of his admin, and the threshold amount was much much lower (ranging from about 30K to 170K) than the top threshold amount today.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov This has absolutely nothing to do with Obama. lol.

yeah, you don't want this to be about Obama. i get it.

Obama's answer to this guy's question is the distraction, right. even the question itself is a distration, right? you would rather this be about the plumber, no, i get it. funny though, was that was the context in which McCain brought him up in the debate. what's even funnier is somehow that context escapes you while you advocate the vetting of this man.

so what is the non sequitur here? i'll tell you

Joe the plumber's past party affiliations is a non sequitur

Joe the Plumbers potential vote is a non sequitur

Joe the plumber's divorce is a non sequitur.

Joe the Plumber's current income is a non sequitur.

Joe the Plumber's $1200 tax lien is a non sequitur.

Joe the Plumber's relationship with his neighbors is a non sequitur.

whatever criminal background Joe the Plumber has or doesn't have is a non sequitur

IOW Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher born December 3, 1973 is a non sequitur.

quote:

"Joe the Plumber" was mentioned 21 times in the space of an hour and a half by John McCain in front of 50 million or more viewers. Of course people were going to want to find out who he was since McCain made him such a central figure. I don't 'tolerate' the personal destruction of anybody (even though that's hardly been the case here, as Joe himself has said he's tickled by the attention) - but the question isn't what garnered the attention - it's McCain's utilization of the question and Joe's good name to score political points 21 times in that debate.

you realize you're entire argument advocating the vetting this guy is how many times his name was said during one debate? silly, almost childish IMO.

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Originally posted by Q5echo yeah, you don't want this to be about Obama. i get it. Obama's answer to this guy's question is the distraction, right. even the question itself is a distration, right? you would rather this be about the plumber, no, i get it. funny though, was that was the context in which McCain brought him up in the debate. what's even funnier is somehow that context escapes you while you advocate the vetting of this man. so what is the non sequitur here? i'll tell you Joe the plumber's past party affiliations is a non sequitur Joe the Plumbers potential vote is a non sequitur Joe the plumber's divorce is a non sequitur. Joe the Plumber's current income is a non sequitur. Joe the Plumber's $1200 tax lien is a non sequitur. Joe the Plumber's relationship with his neighbors is a non sequitur. whatever criminal background Joe the Plumber has or doesn't have is a non sequitur IOW Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher born December 3, 1973 is a non sequitur. you realize you're entire argument advocating the vetting this guy is how many times his name was said during one debate? silly, almost childish IMO.

So IOW, the person's background, shortcomings in the past, and "character" that defines him by his past actions are nothing shy of non sequiturs?

Excellent point, Q. Thanks for the ultimate irony.

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 So IOW, the person's background, shortcomings in the past, and "character" that defines him by his past actions are nothing shy of non sequiturs?

look we got another one pissed that Obama was questioned.

no Opus, in your haste to somehow nail me as a hypocrite you've failed to realize that Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher is not asking for our vote.

i don't know man, maybe if i were hiring a plumber "background and character" would be relevant or if we were hiring a plumber to be the POTUS it would be relevant...but we're not. he's the one thats actually doing the hiring therefore he deserves all due respect

Since when is the observation that this was inevitable because John McCain placed Joe the Plumber front and center in his campaign become synonymous with ADVOCATING investigation into his personal life? This whole thing is ridiculous - the fact that Obama's answer was dead right and McCain's assertion at the debate dead wrong AND the fact that McCain supporters are somehow blaming Obama for the fact that everyone now knows who Joe the Plumber is.

In all honesty, I'd think I was watching a sketch comedy if this was played out in person.

i've said my peace...or piece whatever

I realized something really scary yesterday. At my co-op job, I have a co-worker who is pretty much like LatinLover. I only realized it after we somehow over lunch talked about Bush and then he dropped the bomb on us by voicing his support of the Bush administration (and McCain and the likes). And he is very open about it and loves Bush and thinks he is a great leader. The guy is a jerk, but he is a senior worker in charge of a specific section, hence we just ignore him.

Cant believe there's actually quite a few people out there that absolutely adore Bush Jr., despite of all the horrendous crap he's done

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Originally posted by Magnetonium I realized something really scary yesterday. At my co-op job, I have a co-worker who is pretty much like LatinLover. I only realized it after we somehow over lunch talked about Bush and then he dropped the bomb on us by voicing his support of the Bush administration (and McCain and the likes). And he is very open about it and loves Bush and thinks he is a great leader. The guy is a jerk, but he is a senior worker in charge of a specific section, hence we just ignore him. Cant believe there's actually quite a few people out there that absolutely adore Bush Jr., despite of all the horrendous crap he's done

Yea, I really can't stand those people. If I have to encounter them, or if one of them turns out to be my friend, I make it clear, no discussion of politics please. If me and Q were friends, we'de have to come to that kind of agreement. Unless we were baked...

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Originally posted by Krypton Yea, I really can't stand those people. If I have to encounter them, or if one of them turns out to be my friend, I make it clear, no discussion of politics please. If me and Q were friends, we'de have to come to that kind of agreement. Unless we were baked...

And to think you used to be just like them.

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 So IOW, the person's background, shortcomings in the past, and "character" that defines him by his past actions are nothing shy of non sequiturs? Excellent point, Q. Thanks for the ultimate irony.

The problem here is that the far left wants to discredit this mans concerns with his background. You dont have to be a role model citizen to be concerned and ask valid questions to a presidential candidate. Heck, Joe is a saint compared to all the crooks in Capitol Hill. This man is an average American like you and me.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium I realized something really scary yesterday. At my co-op job, I have a co-worker who is pretty much like LatinLover. I only realized it after we somehow over lunch talked about Bush and then he dropped the bomb on us by voicing his support of the Bush administration (and McCain and the likes). And he is very open about it and loves Bush and thinks he is a great leader. The guy is a jerk, but he is a senior worker in charge of a specific section, hence we just ignore him. Cant believe there's actually quite a few people out there that absolutely adore Bush Jr., despite of all the horrendous crap he's done

Its good to know that intelligent and common sense people walk within us in this world like your co-worker. you should be proud of that.

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Originally posted by LatinLover The problem here is that the far left wants to discredit this mans concerns with his background. You dont have to be a role model citizen to be concerned and ask valid questions to a presidential candidate. Heck, Joe is a saint compared to all the crooks in Capitol Hill. This man is an average American like you and me.

Now that you've vouched for Joe, are you going to make that thread to honorably debate Opus or not?

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