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-- Smells Like Socialist Spirit
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Originally posted by jerZ07002 if every american started from a similar playing field and had a quality public education through college then we would see things a little differently.

That's a bunch of bullshit. I immigrated to this country and did not have the "advantage" of most Americans and I still am doing better. This country has everything you need to get where you want.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 if every american started from a similar playing field and had a quality public education through college then we would see things a little differently. our system inherently disfavors those who don't have access to higher education, and those who have access think its easy for everyone else.

Yeah, I think the problem is that the elite are synonymous with wealth. Just look at the financial crisis we have - sons of rich New England families were getting free rides into Ivy League schools and Wall Street firms for years. It had nothing to do with their performance, but entirely based on their ancestry.

Performance in school is a worse indicator of future standing in this country than your pedigree, and I think that's a true shame.

We live in a country where someone can finish 892nd out of 894 in their college class, yet be a major-party candidate for President of the United States simply because their daddy was an Admiral and gave them a lot of privileges that were never really earned.

I think "fair" is a system where you have to earn your success - I don't think many people disagree. But I fail to see how a perpetuation of the divide between rich and poor creates an equal footing between people. I believe in equality - not of wealth, but of opportunity. And the system Shakka and the rest are promoting does not create equal opportunity, it merely reinforces the same divide that already exists, whereby the rich will always be elite and the poor will always be powerless.

We also live in a system where a black man named Barak Hussein Obama can get elected as president of a nation. Why do you not see the other side of each issue? In every society you have people that abuse it. You will not change that. If you think America can be a perfect nation that you must talking out of your ass.

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Originally posted by Kapedano That's a bunch of bullshit. I immigrated to this country and did not have the "advantage" of most Americans and I still am doing better. This country has everything you need to get where you want.

doing better than who? are you doing better than paris hilton? how about havard MBAs who only got into harvard because of their father? comparing your success now to what it would have been in your home country proves absolutely nothing.

have you ever been to Camden, New Jersey; Newark, New Jersey; Detroit, Michigan; Baltimore, Maryland; Washington, D.C.; Little Rock, Arkansas? There is perpetual poverty in those areas because of a lack of access to quality education and the resources that make people from the Upper East Side perpetually rich. Sure, poor parenting is also an issue, but that could just as easily result from the same poor access to resources that I am talking about.

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Originally posted by Kapedano We also live in a system where a black man named Barak Hussein Obama can get elected as president of a nation. Why do you not see the other side of each issue? In every society you have people that abuse it. You will not change that. If you think America can be a perfect nation that you must talking out of your ass.

You've outlined the reason Obama's presidency would be transformative.

And you've also just used the argument: "We can't make America perfect, so why should we waste time trying to make it better?"

Congratulations - you may have taken the ad hominem crown away from Trancer-X.

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Originally posted by Kapedano We also live in a system where a black man named Barak Hussein Obama can get elected as president of a nation. Why do you not see the other side of each issue? In every society you have people that abuse it. You will not change that. If you think America can be a perfect nation that you must talking out of your ass.

of course i don't think american can be perfect, however, that doesn't mean we should end the pursuit to be as perfect as possible.

FYI - i'm a product of this system. i was raised by a single mother, and we were a lower middle income family. i went to public high school, public college, and then a top law school. I am succesful today because of our system. That does not diminish the fact that not everyone has access to the resources i was blessed with. my success doesn't mean everyone has it as easily as i did.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 doing better than who? are you doing better than paris hilton? how about havard MBAs who only got into harvard because of their father? comparing your success now to what it would have been in your home country proves absolutely nothing.

Ahhh...the grass is always greener. If you take this approach, you'll never be happy with who you are because there will always be some Greek shipping magnet or Russian oil oligarch, or whoever you choose to compare yourself to, that will have more than you and by your scale be happier than you. This is not a good scale to use for happiness.

I am happy because I have a job that I enjoy, a family that loves me, friends whose company I enjoy, and a climate that I find pleasant. That's an overly simplistic view, however I am not happy or unhappy because there are millions of people running around that have more material wealth than I do. I am the master of my destiny--not the government. Playing a constant game of keeping up with the Jones' is futile.

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Originally posted by Shakka Ahhh...the grass is always greener. If you take this approach, you'll never be happy with who you are because there will always be some Greek shipping magnet or Russian oil oligarch, or whoever you choose to compare yourself to, that will have more than you and by your scale be happier than you. This is not a good scale to use for happiness. I am happy because I have a job that I enjoy, a family that loves me, friends whose company I enjoy, and a climate that I find pleasant. That's an overly simplistic view, however I am not happy or unhappy because there are millions of people running around that have more material wealth than I do. I am the master of my destiny--not the government. Playing a constant game of keeping up with the Jones' is futile.

i don't disagree with your measurement of happiness. however, the discussion was dealing with the inequalities of access to resources within the US. comparing the access to resources of two different countries does not disprove there is unequal access within one country. the fact that he is better off in the US doesn't disprove it either.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 i don't disagree with your measurement of happiness. however, the discussion was dealing with the inequalities of access to resources within the US. comparing the access to resources of two different countries does not disprove there is unequal access within one country. the fact that he is better off in the US doesn't disprove it either.

I must admit, I have some luck on the way. I think this nation offers almost everything other then luck. Some people are lucky, and some, well...not so lucky. Just the way life is. I think these are problems that can not be fixed. A lot of it has to do with luck and mentality. Government can not offer both of them. This is only used as a tool to get more votes, and actually make people think that they are doing good.

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Originally posted by Shakka I guess I should be looking for a handout then seeing as how I don't pay enough taxes and many of the people BO claims to intend to help are those that pay little, if any income tax at all

You as in your society. You don't have free health care or free education for all at the same level as those with lots of money, therefore you, as a nation, obviously do not pay enough taxes (either personal or corporate) otherwise your country would have those basic rights

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The bottom line is that you want government to arbitrarily forcibly take money from those that have made it into the weaker hands of those that have not in the name of an arbitrarily, ever changing construct of "fair" depending on who the elected leaders are at the time and what their collective determination of "fair" is

So you don't think anybody should have to pay any taxes whatsoever?

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Originally posted by George Smiley You as in your society. You don't have free health care or free education for all at the same level as those with lots of money, therefore you, as a nation, obviously do not pay enough taxes (either personal or corporate) otherwise your country would have those basic rights

We've had this discussion before. Why should health-care be free? What if there were no qualified doctors willing to work at your wages? Would you force them to do it? We have a public education system (which is quite good or quite bad depending on your locale). I don't necessarily share your opinion of what constitutes a "basic right." Furthermore, based on your comment, it would seem that you believe the solution to any societal ills is simply more taxes. Yay! I guess that's pretty good as long as you're a member of the ruling elite, eh?

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So you don't think anybody should have to pay any taxes whatsoever?

Show me where I explicitly said that.

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Originally posted by Shakka Why should health-care be free?

Because it's a right

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What if there were no qualified doctors willing to work at your wages?

Doctors are extremely highly paid, probably the highest paid professionals, why would they not want to work as doctors?

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Would you force them to do it?

What the fuck are you on about now?

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We have a public education system (which is quite good or quite bad depending on your locale)

Which is pretty shocking in your inner cities right? They simply do not get the same standards of education as those educated privately

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I don't necessarily share your opinion of what constitutes a "basic right."

You don't believe that people have the right to an education?

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Furthermore, based on your comment, it would seem that you believe the solution to any societal ills is simply more taxes

If you can't afford what you need, then taxes need to be raised yes. My preferred method would be to raise it from big business or societies rich, as they can afford it

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Yay! I guess that's pretty good as long as you're a member of the ruling elite, eh?

You're the one parroting the desires of the ruling elite, not me

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Show me where I explicitly said that.

You said: "The bottom line is that you want government to arbitrarily forcibly take money from those that have made it into the weaker hands of those that have not". That, my friend, is what taxes ARE (altho most sane people wouldn't describe it like that)

So, second time of asking, do you think nobody should have to pay taxes?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Because people born into money have an unfair advantage over those not born into money, even somebody like you can't possibly be pig headed enough to deny that?! Fairness means equal opportunities for all...

OMFG...are you serious?

So if I go out, create a multimillion dollar company only to have some jerk in office tell me my success is not fair and 'redistribute' (aka rip off) my money to some f$#@ing slobs who has done nothing with their lives, that's somehow FAIR???.
Wtf man!

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Originally posted by Shakka Don't worry folks, Obama will make it better.

I feel sorry for you guys down there...I really do...

Last time I checked the Democrat were blue right....not commie red?

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r OMFG...are you serious? So if I go out, create a multimillion dollar company only to have some jerk in office tell me my success is not fair and 'redistribute' (aka rip off) my money to some f$#@ing slobs who has done nothing with their lives, that's somehow FAIR???. Wtf man!

I'm sure you'll miss all $700 of your money. But that's beside the point.

Do you not understand what "equal opportunity" even means?

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I think "fair" is a system where you have to earn your success - I don't think many people disagree. But I fail to see how a perpetuation of the divide between rich and poor creates an equal footing between people. I believe in equality - not of wealth, but of opportunity. And the system Shakka and the rest are promoting does not create equal opportunity, it merely reinforces the same divide that already exists, whereby the rich will always be elite and the poor will always be powerless.

There isn't a magical solution in bringing everyone over from the 'poor side' without dragging the successful ones down to the poor one's level though.
It's a fallicy to think that even distribution of wealth would ever work or even remain in such a state - over time that wealth will just eventually find it's way back to the people in which it was stolen in the first place.

You've already found the solution in your first line, "...a system where you have to earn your success".
Yes people, it's called 'sweat equity' something everyone has but are unwilling to do - it's just easier to bitch and complain and have the government give you a handout.
Why anyone would actually WANT the government to run your lives for you is really beyond financial comprehension. \
NOBODY has ever had their dreams or finanical asperations come to fruition via government alms...

What's desparately needed is non-partisan, basic, personal financial education.
How to budget, how to handle money, what is money, etc., etc.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Because it's a right

Again--says who? I repeat, what if there were no doctors--how would one attain said "right?" If you have a right to something, you shouldn't be dependent on someone or something else to provide it for you. What other rights do people have that they are dependent on others to provide? Health care is a service that is provided by a knowledgeable and qualified professional for a fee, for his/her service. It is not a right that you can just demand.

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Doctors are extremely highly paid, probably the highest paid professionals, why would they not want to work as doctors?

And if you continue to force health care as some sort of right, regardless of price, you will force down the price for services to artificially low levels that will likely induce some of the most qualified people to leave the market. Why would someone want to go to all of the trouble of becoming a doctor if the government tells them they have to practice for a pittance because every single person has an unencumbered right to health care according to George.

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What the fuck are you on about now?

See above.

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Which is pretty shocking in your inner cities right? They simply do not get the same standards of education as those educated privately

Well George, no offense, but it's pretty hard to argue why something that is free should be of equal or better quality to something that costs a small fortune. Though some public schools in big cities are every bit as good as their private school counterparts it's a hard argument to make that they should be by default. Of course, with lobbyists and teachers' unions protesting the enforcement of standards, how do you expect quantifiable improvement in the public education system?

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You're the one parroting the desires of the ruling elite, not me

I have no desire to be in the ruling elite.

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You said: "The bottom line is that you want government to arbitrarily forcibly take money from those that have made it into the weaker hands of those that have not". That, my friend, is what taxes ARE (altho most sane people wouldn't describe it like that) So, second time of asking, do you think nobody should have to pay taxes?

No. Taxes are a fact of life and are the dues we pay to live in what I consider to be a wonderful nation. However, the current tax code is more than progressive enough and punitive enough for my blood. I work for the government for 1/3 of the year. That sucks. The government has more than enough revenue to accomplish more than the requisite basic functions that they should be responsible for. They can balance the fucking budget and leave me to figure out how to spend the 65% of my gross income that I do actually get to take home.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I'm sure you'll miss all $700 of your money. But that's beside the point. Do you not understand what "equal opportunity" even means?

Actually I won't since you may have missed what flag I fly under...

And it IS the point actually.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r There isn't a magical solution in bringing everyone over from the 'poor side' without dragging the successful ones down to the poor one's level though. It's a fallicy to think that even distribution of wealth would ever work or even remain in such a state - over time that wealth will just eventually find it's way back to the people in which it was stolen in the first place. You've already found the solution in your first line, "...a system where you have to earn your success". Yes people, it's called 'sweat equity' something everyone has but are unwilling to do - it's just easier to bitch and complain and have the government give you a handout. Why anyone would actually WANT the government to run your lives for you is really beyond financial comprehension. \ NOBODY has ever had their dreams or finanical asperations come to fruition via government alms... What's desparately needed is non-partisan, basic, personal financial education. How to budget, how to handle money, what is money, etc., etc.

For God's sake, nobody has been talking about even distribution of wealth. We're talking about equality of opportunity - a system in which every person has an equal opportunity to succeed regardless of how much money they are born into.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r OMFG...are you serious? So if I go out, create a multimillion dollar company only to have some jerk in office tell me my success is not fair and 'redistribute' (aka rip off) my money to some f$#@ing slobs who has done nothing with their lives, that's somehow FAIR???. Wtf man!

Let me put this into a nice analogy.

I'm an engineer, with benefits, overtime and expenses, i make around 95-100K per year CDN$. I pay a shit load of taxes, but that doesnt bother me at all, i still have loads of money kicking around to pay down debt, pay for my living expenses, save for a rainy day and blow on stupid things.

The reason im not pissed about it is because when i got to mcdonalds, there is some shmuck there to serve me my fries, when i take my trash out in the morning, there is some guy that comes by in a truck to pick up my trash. There are hundreds of jobs that i would never want to do myself.

People who work these jobs (minimum wage, shit jobs) need some kind of incentive to keep doing it. Not everyone is intelligent enough to do what i do, or be a doctor, or lawyer etc. I think it is socially responsible to make sure that our tax system allows these people to maintain a good standard of living while providing a service. Just because im make a good salary doesnt mean i deserve to be pushed to the front of the line at the hospital, nor does it mean that my kids should get first pick of schooling etc. education and healthcare are the two great equalizers in society. If you're well educated and healthy, your are on equal footing with everyone else weather you came with a silver spoon shoved up your ass or you came from nothing.

I dont mind paying extra in tax to make sure people get fair and equal access to a good education and health care.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Actually I won't since you may have missed what flag I fly under... And it IS the point actually.

If you're going to hide behind your flag, why are you even commenting on American politics?

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Originally posted by Kapedano That's a bunch of bullshit. I immigrated to this country and did not have the "advantage" of most Americans and I still am doing better. This country has everything you need to get where you want.

My paternal grandfather was raised in an orphanage and wound up becoming a self-made millionaire back in the 1950's so if that's not proof that our system works I don't know what else is.

Now I could be mistaken but from what I've gathered, Socialism actually seems to buck the entire process of natural selection so that those of us who were endowed with a higher degree of capability are often made to suffer for it (unless they were somehow lucky enough to be born into the ruling class or bureaucracy that administrates it.)

Either way, I believe in self-determination and limited government as did our country's founding fathers.

However, I won't dispute the fact that our country has been traveling down the road to socialism for quite some time now. I think much of it started during the Wilson administration under his foreign policy advisor (and alter-ego), Colonel House, who wrote about his wanting America to conform to the ideals of Karl Marx.


Oh, one more thing - I almost forgot to mention those pesky Fabians!!

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Originally posted by Shakka Again--says who?

Says me

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I repeat, what if there were no doctors

Why would there be no doctors? They are among the highest paid in every society on Earth and as such, there is no shortage of people wanting to become doctors

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And if you continue to force health care as some sort of right, regardless of price, you will force down the price for services to artificially low levels that will likely induce some of the most qualified people to leave the market. Why would someone want to go to all of the trouble of becoming a doctor if the government tells them they have to practice for a pittance because every single person has an unencumbered right to health care according to George.

What the fuck are you on about? Why would doctors be paid a pittance? How many fucking times do I have to tell you how highly paid doctors are?

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See above.

See above, you're talking out of your arse

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Well George, no offense, but it's pretty hard to argue why something that is free should be of equal or better quality to something that costs a small fortune.

That's the point you moron, it's paid for out of people's taxes so it's free for everyone - from the poorest to the richest

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Though some public schools in big cities are every bit as good as their private school counterparts it's a hard argument to make that they should be by default. Of course, with lobbyists and teachers' unions protesting the enforcement of standards, how do you expect quantifiable improvement in the public education system?

Have you ever been outside of America? Are you aware that there exists a whole world beyond your borders? Free health care and free education work exceptionally well in other countries so why can't it work in the richest nation?

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I have no desire to be in the ruling elite.

Yet you spend every post defending them and arguing that they should contribute less proportionally to society...

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No. Taxes are a fact of life and are the dues we pay to live in what I consider to be a wonderful nation. However, the current tax code is more than progressive enough and punitive enough for my blood. I work for the government for 1/3 of the year. That sucks. The government has more than enough revenue to accomplish more than the requisite basic functions that they should be responsible for. They can balance the fucking budget and leave me to figure out how to spend the 65% of my gross income that I do actually get to take home.

But why do you assume that you'll fall into the bracket that I think should pay more taxes? If you're that well off then you're greedy, plain and simple...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r OMFG...are you serious? So if I go out, create a multimillion dollar company only to have some jerk in office tell me my success is not fair and 'redistribute' (aka rip off) my money to some f$#@ing slobs who has done nothing with their lives, that's somehow FAIR???. Wtf man!

Why would someone in your office tell you that?

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r You've already found the solution in your first line, "...a system where you have to earn your success". Yes people, it's called 'sweat equity' something everyone has but are unwilling to do - it's just easier to bitch and complain and have the government give you a handout. Why anyone would actually WANT the government to run your lives for you is really beyond financial comprehension. \ NOBODY has ever had their dreams or finanical asperations come to fruition via government alms... What's desparately needed is non-partisan, basic, personal financial education. How to budget, how to handle money, what is money, etc., etc.

Thank you for posting that, Fir3start3r!! I agree 110%!!

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