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-- The Case Against Obama in a Nutshell
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Originally posted by Krypton Wow, you must hate America. Why don't you move abroad?

I love America. But the point that I want to make is that Americans has shifted from individual responsibility to government dependence. People expect for college tuition to be free, to have free helthcare, the jobless want to be paid fopr not doing anything.

I mean let me give you an example... I'm proud to say that I work to pay my bills, college tuition, health care, and personal expenses without relying on the government. Plus, and now we have "the chosen one" that has an illusive bracket on what he considers rich. All of a sudden, he wants to take more of my paycheck, for which I work hard, for someone that enjoys living off the government.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X It's obvious that jerz didn't grow up on the mean streets of Baltimore where you can get shot for just looking at someone wrong. Am I saying that it's right? Hardly. But that's the way that it was and kind of still is.

Not Baltimore, Jersey City. And by grow up on the mean streets of baltimore I assume you mean that you grew up in a suburb outside of baltimore, but to be cool you say baltimore.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X I've been shot at as well but what really sucked was getting stabbed. lol

if that's true, it's not all that surprising. It also likely confirms that you talk to people in person as you do on the internet, and that you're either a liar (about being stabbed), or a douche (like you are on this forum).

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Originally posted by LatinLover I love America. But the point that I want to make is that Americans has shifted from individual responsibility to government dependence. People expect for college tuition to be free, to have free helthcare, the jobless want to be paid fopr not doing anything. I mean let me give you an example... I'm proud to say that I work to pay my bills, college tuition, health care, and personal expenses without relying on the government. Plus, and now we have "the chosen one" that has an illusive bracket on what he considers rich. All of a sudden, he wants to take more of my paycheck, for which I work hard, for someone that enjoys living off the government.

so i assume you make more than 250K, is that correct?

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Originally posted by LatinLover I love America. But the point that I want to make is that Americans has shifted from individual responsibility to government dependence. People expect for college tuition to be free, to have free helthcare, the jobless want to be paid fopr not doing anything. I mean let me give you an example... I'm proud to say that I work to pay my bills, college tuition, health care, and personal expenses without relying on the government. Plus, and now we have "the chosen one" that has an illusive bracket on what he considers rich. All of a sudden, he wants to take more of my paycheck, for which I work hard, for someone that enjoys living off the government.

Wow, you make more than $250,000? Congratulations on that success. Did you know the constitution grants the president/Congress powers of taxation? People making over $250,000 have nothing to worry about. They will pay the same tax rates they paid during the Clinton Administration, and there was a huge economic boom during the 1990's.

College tuition should be free, so should healthcare. We are guarenteed a right to life. What's life if we don't have our health? Why have public schools? Isn't that socialist too? Imagine what the government could do for us with money we pay them every April if they weren't throwing away over $10 billion a month to Iraq and Afghanistan. You can't have your cake and eat it too. How do you pay two wars and not raise taxes?

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Originally posted by Krypton College tuition should be free, so should healthcare.

thank you for my new sig.

Edit: might as well say that food should be free. because we have the right to eat

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Originally posted by LatinLover thank you for my new sig.

Hopefully you'll include the context in which it was said...idiot...

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Originally posted by Krypton Hopefully you'll include the context in which it was said...idiot...

so you want free college tuition, free health care, free food? what else?

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Originally posted by LatinLover so you want free college tuition, free health care, free food? what else?

Did I say free food?

Let me get this straight. You want us to perpetuate a constant state of war, but you don't want to pay the taxes for it. You want what taxes we do pay to go to our wars and not in the service of our people...Got it...No wonder your man is about to lose the election by a landslide. People are tired of your hardline Republican bullshit.

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Originally posted by LatinLover so you want free college tuition, free health care, free food? what else?

what's your objection to free college tuition?

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 what's your objection to free college tuition?

the fact that he clearly never made it to college and the thought of other people going fills him with envy til he just cant take it anymore.

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Originally posted by LatinLover thank you for my new sig. Edit: might as well say that food should be free. because we have the right to eat

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

Dumbass...

Umm, Latin, did you not say this just before the thread I created for us to debate in got deleted?:

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Originally posted by LatinLover ...Sorry Opus... as much as I wanted to give you a debate the circumstances at the present moment obstruct from the plan to move foreward. For this matter, this is going to be my last post in TA. I just have saved Opus from a public emberassment, like I said if the debate would have taken place it would have been suicidal. And I still stand by the fact im too good for opus.

So are you leaving or aren't you? And if not, how many more bombastic statements and assertions will you be making before you cower yet again?

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Originally posted by Krypton Wow, you make more than $250,000? Congratulations on that success. Did you know the constitution grants the president/Congress powers of taxation? People making over $250,000 have nothing to worry about. They will pay the same tax rates they paid during the Clinton Administration, and there was a huge economic boom during the 1990's. College tuition should be free, so should healthcare. We are guarenteed a right to life. What's life if we don't have our health? Why have public schools? Isn't that socialist too? Imagine what the government could do for us with money we pay them every April if they weren't throwing away over $10 billion a month to Iraq and Afghanistan. You can't have your cake and eat it too. How do you pay two wars and not raise taxes?

There is so much wrong with this response. Clinton was not the driving force behind the boom of the 90s. There was a huge thing called the digital transformation, the great moderation and a massive productivity boom related to computers, combined with the biggest years of the easy money Greenspan era. Unless you really believe Al Gore invented the Internet, it's hard to five too much credit the Clinton administration for an economic boom.

I can understand people who want basic education to be "free," but college tuition...free? "Imagine what the government can do for us...?" That is the problem--I don't want government meddling in my life. The less the better. I want freedom from government to the greatest degree possible without sacrificing basic order and BASIC services that government should provide. There is far too much fat in our government. Far too much spending on things that only weigh us down. Imagine how much more capital could be freed up for innovation and private investment by the people if government were not so engorged on all of our hard-earned wages.

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Originally posted by Shakka I can understand people who want basic education to be "free," but college tuition...free? "Imagine what the government can do for us...?" That is the problem--I don't want government meddling in my life. The less the better. I want freedom from government to the greatest degree possible without sacrificing basic order and BASIC services that government should provide. There is far too much fat in our government. Far too much spending on things that only weigh us down. Imagine how much more capital could be freed up for innovation and private investment by the people if government were not so engorged on all of our hard-earned wages.

I think improving secondary education in this country is a far better priority than free college tuition - though I do think you should take a look at the Scandinavian education model - Denmark is one of the most educated countries in the world for precisely that reason - everyone can go to college. Imagine how much innovation could occur if everyone has the opportunity for a first-rate higher education.

Government grants can also spur innovation - it's a myth that entrepreneurship and innovation come solely from the private sector. Just ask NASA.

Not to be glib here, but how much did you actually learn in college? College is 50% a social experience...Not that I am saying people shouldn't go to college--I found it to be an incredibly valuable experience. I'm just sayin'...

Also, wasn't it JFK who famously quipped, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country?"

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Originally posted by Shakka Not to be glib here, but how much did you actually learn in college? College is 50% a social experience...Not that I am saying people shouldn't go to college--I found it to be an incredibly valuable experience. I'm just sayin'... Also, wasn't it JFK who famously quipped, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country?"

To your first point, quite a bit. I came from a small Midwestern town with a small interest in politics, and I came out with an understanding of electoral politics in Uganda and social services in Denmark. I think your argument is better centered around the idea that not all majors lend themselves to what you would deem useful innovation.

To your second point, that's why I was glad to finally hear Obama articulate a moral obligation to public service - whether in the Peace Corps, military, community organizing, whatever it may be. The problem with the US is that it is entirely organized around consumption of luxuries - imagine if even 5% of that energy and those resources were devoted to the public good.

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov To your first point, quite a bit. I came from a small Midwestern town with a small interest in politics, and I came out with an understanding of electoral politics in Uganda and social services in Denmark. I think your argument is better centered around the idea that not all majors lend themselves to what you would deem useful innovation.

Yeah--I considered revising that statement. Though I majored in economics and some of it is certainly useful in my current position. The other 60% of what I learned (or attended class for) was not so much. I seriously don't give a damn about the ethical treatment of non-human animals (though I actually did find my political science class to be pretty interesting.). I've never found an English class that inspired me.

Jeeez...this is concerning about this country in general. People piss me off. I am shocked that it appears to be true. Unless this is like the chick that carved a backwards B in her face...

The email:

quote:

This is not a forward from me, this actually happened. I am hoping people will send this on so that Americans can know the sort of fascist tactics being used by the Obama Campaign: On Wednesday the 1st of October I received a call on my cell while in the car with my husband. It was a woman who identified herself as calling from the Obama Campaign. The phone # she called from was 903-798-6020 which lists as "Obama Volunteers of Texarkana" ( Texas ). She asked if I was an Obama supporter to which I replied: "No, I don't support him, your guy is a socialist who voted four times in the State Senate to let little babies die in hospital closets; I think you should find something better to do with your time." I hung up. Thursday, October 2, I answered the front door to find the Secret Service. Immediately I thought of the call and was furious that apparently you are not allowed to call Obama a Socialist without the Secret Service coming to investigate. Instead, they asked me about the following comment, relayed by the Obama Volunteer of Texarkana who called me, unsolicited on my cell phone: "I will never support Obama and he will wind up dead on a hospital floor." My husband laughed and told them "No, she called him a socialist but she never said a word about him dying." I gave them my actual quote. The woman asked insolently "Oh? Well why would she make that up?" I replied that I supposed she wasn't happy about what I said about her candidate and the Agent said "That's right, you were rude!" The last time I checked being rude wasn't a crime in America . Luckily the big file they had gathered on me didn't indicate mental instability or a past life of stalking/crime, however they did want to know how I felt about Obama. That was my limit. I told the Agent in no uncertain terms that my thoughts were not pertinent to their investigation, that this was America and the last time I checked I was allowed to think whatever I wanted without being questioned by the Secret Service. In fact, even if I had said what she claimed, that isn't a threat. I told them (again) and my husband verified that the statement reported by Obama's volunteer was a lie. I asked them if there was a tape of the call and they said no. I said, "So on the word of a ticked off Obama supporter you are on my porch with no other evidence and you want to question me about my THOUGHTS!?" They informed me that there was no evidence she was an Obama supporter.someone calling from his campaign. I was not allowed to know the name of my accuser at which point they informed me that it wasn't like I was in a court of law, YET, as if this was a good thing. I recognized this as a veiled threat. I told them I would happily go to court since I did nothing wrong and at least then my accuser would have to face me rather than sending the "thought" police to my house. They then said they were trying to do me a favor, that they came to me first before "embarrassing you by going to all your neighbors and family", another threat? I told them to be my guest and talk to whomever they wanted but they weren't going to investigate my thoughts on my porch. They also informed me that it would be easier if the next time a supporter calls me I just say "Yeah sure count me in, or just hang up" apparently so she won't get her undies in a bundle and give them more useless trips. Yeah right. I said "Look, someone calls me unsolicited on my cell phone to ask me to support their candidate and I can't tell them why I don't?" I said I was sorry they made a wasted trip but if they had a problem with some made up lie they needed to go talk to her about it because it wasn't my fault they had to drive from Houston for nothing. At one point I went inside and got a notepad to record their badge numbers and they refused to show me their badges. They had done the quick flip when they arrived. I asked for a card and the female Agent refused to give me one stating "You're not going to get a card." The male Agent gave me a card and told me I could contact Houston with any questions. The fact that the volunteer lied, the fact that the Secret Service came to my house to question me about my thoughts and feelings and threaten to embarrass me to my neighbors and go to court if I didn't cooperate is not really the tragedy here. Because that girl on the phone doesn't have the pull to send the Secret Service to my home. Someone high in the ranks of a campaign working for a man who may be the next President of the United States of America felt comfortable bringing the force of the Federal Government to bear on a private citizen on nothing but the word of a partisan volunteer. Jessica Hughes Lufkin , Texas

Source

quote:

Secret Service visits Lufkin woman after 'death threat' allegation from an Obama campaign volunteer By JESSICA SAVAGE The Lufkin Daily News Monday, October 06, 2008 A Lufkin woman received a surprise visit from the Secret Service last week because of a "death threat" comment she reportedly made about Sen. Barack Obama to a campaign volunteer asking for her support of the presidential candidate. Two federal agents arrived at Jessica Hughes' home Thursday to ask her if she said, "I will never support Obama and he will wind up dead on a hospital floor." Hughes said her words were deliberately twisted by a volunteer who was apparently unhappy Hughes was rude during a phone conversation the two had. The Lufkin mother, a Republican, said she received a call on her cell phone Wednesday from a woman with the Obama Volunteers of Texarkana. "She asked if I was an Obama supporter, to which I replied, 'No, I don't support him. Your guy is a socialist who voted four times in the state Senate to let little babies die in hospital closets; I think you should find something better to do with your time.' (And then) I hung up." (Hughes is referring to a "born alive" Illinois bill that did not pass in the Illinois state Senate in 2005 and had previously been opposed by Obama because he said it undermined Roe v. Wade, according to FactCheck.org, a non-partisan organization. A federal version of the bill, which Obama said he would have supported, passed by unanimous consent and was signed into law by President George W. Bush in 2002.) Obama Campaign Communications for Texas director Josh Taylor declined to comment Monday, refusing to answer any questions and referring the matter to the Secret Service, which he said is conducting an investigation. A message left with a Secret Service agent in Houston was not immediately returned. Hughes said she was surprised to see two Secret Service agents at her door, and upset to learn that the conversation she had with the volunteer apparently had not been recorded. "I find it hard to believe that (campaign volunteers) don't tape these calls. They call people unsolicited and they aren't monitoring the calls or recording them? I think that is absolutely ridiculous," she said. "I mean, how often must this happen � that someone is rude to a volunteer that they don't want to talk to?" Hughes said she wants to file a countercomplaint against the volunteer. "She has made a charge that will follow me the rest of my life," she said. "I find that repugnant and violating � that some person got her undies in a bundle because she didn't like what I had to say."

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Wow, and I thought people in Texas were nuts .

Yeah, well, I was kind of a juvenile delinquent and tended to run with a fast crowd so that might also explain why I've lost more friends from violence and drugs than I want to count.

Thankfully, though, I saw the light and changed my ways

You have to sin in order to be redeemed, right?

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka There is so much wrong with this response. Clinton was not the driving force behind the boom of the 90s. There was a huge thing called the digital transformation, the great moderation and a massive productivity boom related to computers, combined with the biggest years of the easy money Greenspan era. Unless you really believe Al Gore invented the Internet, it's hard to five too much credit the Clinton administration for an economic boom.

My point was, taxes were higher in the 1990's, and yet, there was still the largest increase in wealth in the history of country. Why hardline Republicans are freaking out about Obama's tax increase for 250k+ income earners is beyond me.

quote:

I can understand people who want basic education to be "free," but college tuition...free? "Imagine what the government can do for us...?" That is the problem--I don't want government meddling in my life. The less the better. I want freedom from government to the greatest degree possible without sacrificing basic order and BASIC services that government should provide. There is far too much fat in our government. Far too much spending on things that only weigh us down. Imagine how much more capital could be freed up for innovation and private investment by the people if government were not so engorged on all of our hard-earned wages.

These days, a college education is basic to just even be considered for a wide range of careers. Instead of buying $1 million missiles and $10 billion stealth aircraft, perhaps our government could spend that money on making sure its citizens were well-educated, thus, improving the economy, and getting a return for the money invested, ay? Once a $1 million Tomahawk missile is fired, ultimately killing people, that's $1 million down the drain to some arms manufacturer.

Additionally, I want freedom too. Public schools should be forced to compete for students. No one should be assigned to a school. This is a different issue than university education because universities already compete. Public high schools don't.

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Originally posted by Krypton Additionally, I want freedom too. Public schools should be forced to compete for students. No one should be assigned to a school. This is a different issue than university education because universities already compete. Public high schools don't.

public schools should NOT have to compete with each other. if people decided to move their kids out of a certain school then that school would have trouble improving because its funding would be diminished by the decreasing public revenue that occurs when students leave. competition in public schools is bad also bad because not all citizens are as mobile as others and they lack the resources to get their kids to the better schools. As a result, the bad schools will be left with the poorest kids, and the least amount of funding. the exact opposite of what should happen.

the best approach is a broad based plan that pays teachers more in those districts to attract the best, and throw resources at trouble schools (after school programs, anti-drug programs, etc...).

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 public schools should NOT have to compete with each other. if people decided to move their kids out of a certain school then that school would have trouble improving because its funding would be diminished by the decreasing public revenue that occurs when students leave. competition in public schools is bad also bad because not all citizens are as mobile as others and they lack the resources to get their kids to the better schools. As a result, the bad schools will be left with the poorest kids, and the least amount of funding. the exact opposite of what should happen. the best approach is a broad based plan that pays teachers more in those districts to attract the best, and throw resources at trouble schools (after school programs, anti-drug programs, etc...).

Tell me, what incentive do schools have to improve, if they are guaranteed funding? None. Each student should be given a voucher of whatever the government pays per student's education, and that student's parents should have the choice of choosing the school they want their child to go to. What happens to bad schools? They close down...GOOD. Why keep throwing money away to a POS school? The poorest kids wouldn't be left in bad schools. They have the same choice as any other as to which school they want to attend.

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Originally posted by Krypton Tell me, what incentive do schools have to improve, if they are guaranteed funding? None. Each student should be given a voucher of whatever the government pays per student's education, and that student's parents should have the choice of choosing the school they want their child to go to. What happens to bad schools? They close down...GOOD. Why keep throwing money away to a POS school? The poorest kids wouldn't be left in bad schools. They have the same choice as any other as to which school they want to attend.

this argument disregards the reality of bad schools and other factors contributing to the situation. How are those kids supposed to get to their new schools? many of the kids who go to bad schools walk to school because they are neighborhood schools, and the parents can't afford to provide transportation, otherwise, they likely wouldn't live in that neighborhood. since a school is provided within walking distance in many cases, the city is not obliged to provide transportation. the result is that the most at risk kids are left in the bad school until it closes, then when it does close, the city has a greater burden to transport students that would have walked to the local school.

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover so you want free college tuition, free health care, free food? what else?

By "free" I assume we're talking about government funded (ie paid for by the people for the people - nationalised), so, I would also like nationalised (or kept nationalised):

Education - obvious
Health care - obvious
Energy - too few companies mean privatisation does not work (no competition), also economies of scale mean lower prices for consumers if nationalised
Water - natural monopoly, doesn't work under competition
Public transport - "mini" monopolies of routes mean no competition and no motive for improvement of service
Pharmaceutical industry - can it ever be ethical to make a profit from this?!

Also, I'd toy with the idea of nationalising the farming industry but mainly because farmers are greedy right wing bastards and this would be more to piss them off than to provide food to the masses for cheaper...

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